How to counter Joker?

[Deleted member]

Ever since his release, most have my fights have been against Joker, and I lose 8 out of 10 times. I can't even get consistent wins playing as him.

What are Joker's weaknesses that need to be exploited? How can I avoid his edgeguarding/gimping (which I suck at with Joker)? Please tell me we've had enough time to figure this out.

 

[Felancius]

I don't think we've really had enough time to figure it all out for sure since Joker's only been out for about a day, but as far as I can tell from testing with NPCs and friends, that Joker comes off to me as that he struggles against Ness and Lucas, due to how they can handle a lot of his combo game. Meta Knight also feels useful against him due to having faster combos than Joker. But like I said, it's WAY too early to tell, so your best bet is to just keep practicing, probably with friends or discord groups.

What can very easily be said though, is that you'll want to try and get rid of him before his Persona activates, cause when it does, he becomes pretty OP in general.

 

[KenanTheFab]

If projectile character: You only need to worry about his main forme due to the combos that stem from low dmg and knockback. When he gets persona, run away and spam projectiles to shorten the timer. It is usually 30 seconds but each hit takes off 1 second (No clue if it scales with dmg?).

If no projectiles: Know that he is a very precise character. He can't kill you in his main forme for the most part due to a lack of power (Some exceptions exist ofc, such as your usual smash attacks.) If you deny him his combo game he will suffer, don't play on his rules, play on yours.

His gun isn't that powerful and has a fairly large amount of lag, especially if he jumps with it or does one of the two aerial gun moves, so don't feel intimidated by it as a good joker player would choose to go for a tilt, or smash, to start a combo or do some damage instead of going for the laggy gun.

In regards to edgeguarding... Hard to say. His BAir and DAir are his best tools due to their extreme knockback, and they come out very fast. The best advice I can give is to stall if you can or go for aerial attacks. If you're gonna die either way, might as well go for some dmg for the next stock, right?

If you're caught in a combo try to DI out of it or spam airdodge like your life depends on it.

When his persona comes out you can follow my first advice about attacking, but this can be extremely unsafe due to the persona's incredible damage buff, so try to stall out and not go for unsafe options, punish if he goes for something stupid.

These are just some basic tips. Like Felancius said, there hasn't been too much time, and until maybe a week or so passes we won't know a lot of his weakness other than the blaring ones atm.

 

[edde]

1 Force him to approach
2 He has a hard time killing without arsene
3 Try to stalll out arsene
4 Joker struggles with larger disjointed hitboxes like lucina's

 

[KingDoop]

so far the only bad matchup I've had is Joker vs Joker. I main Ridley and that has been pretty easy for me. As of now I think any character with good grabs/command grabs will do well against Joker. His normal recover isn't great either so someone who can harass him offstage us a plus. I'm thinking Ness is a tough matchup for him

 

[nshoes]

Can confirm Ness is a difficult matchup. Faced a few of them yesterday and it was tough.

 

[soyperson]

Sonic is a decent matchup. Just keep your moves fairly spontaneous and don't fall into pattern play.

 

[haxfactory]

Short height is also a problem and it's possible to gimp his tether with some characters.

For instance, my little brother is a Pichu main. I'm way better than him, but it's hard to hit Pichu with Joker and thundershock can gimp the tether really easily.

You basically have to immediately get to the ledge or you have to tether at a low enough distance that you can wait it out to see the pattern the thundershocks are in and go to grab the ledge during the gap.

If you get thundershocked from a tether and don't have your double jump you're probably just dead.

In fact, people are going to learn how to gimp his tether recovery eventually, so Joker's are going to have to get creative.

Remember that the first time you use the tether up b you get a little bit of a jump. You can use that to reach the stage or ledge in some cases.

It's laggy when you land with it, but if you need to use it you need to use it (think Melee Sheik up bing on stage, if they cover your good option, sometimes you just have to take the bad one and hope it works out).

 

[~?~]

If projectile character: You only need to worry about his main forme due to the combos that stem from low dmg and knockback. When he gets persona, run away and spam projectiles to shorten the timer. It is usually 30 seconds but each hit takes off 1 second (No clue if it scales with dmg?).

If no projectiles: Know that he is a very precise character. He can't kill you in his main forme for the most part due to a lack of power (Some exceptions exist ofc, such as your usual smash attacks.) If you deny him his combo game he will suffer, don't play on his rules, play on yours.

His gun isn't that powerful and has a fairly large amount of lag, especially if he jumps with it or does one of the two aerial gun moves, so don't feel intimidated by it as a good joker player would choose to go for a tilt, or smash, to start a combo or do some damage instead of going for the laggy gun.

In regards to edgeguarding... Hard to say. His BAir and DAir are his best tools due to their extreme knockback, and they come out very fast. The best advice I can give is to stall if you can or go for aerial attacks. If you're gonna die either way, might as well go for some dmg for the next stock, right?

If you're caught in a combo try to DI out of it or spam airdodge like your life depends on it.

When his persona comes out you can follow my first advice about attacking, but this can be extremely unsafe due to the persona's incredible damage buff, so try to stall out and not go for unsafe options, punish if he goes for something stupid.

These are just some basic tips. Like Felancius said, there hasn't been too much time, and until maybe a week or so passes we won't know a lot of his weakness other than the blaring ones atm.

I've died multiple times at center stage at 95-100% from a forward smash in his passive form. Your information is fake news sir.

Short height is also a problem and it's possible to gimp his tether with some characters.

For instance, my little brother is a Pichu main. I'm way better than him, but it's hard to hit Pichu with Joker and thundershock can gimp the tether really easily.

You basically have to immediately get to the ledge or you have to tether at a low enough distance that you can wait it out to see the pattern the thundershocks are in and go to grab the ledge during the gap.

If you get thundershocked from a tether and don't have your double jump you're probably just dead.

In fact, people are going to learn how to gimp his tether recovery eventually, so Joker's are going to have to get creative.

Remember that the first time you use the tether up b you get a little bit of a jump. You can use that to reach the stage or ledge in some cases.

It's laggy when you land with it, but if you need to use it you need to use it (think Melee Sheik up bing on stage, if they cover your good option, sometimes you just have to take the bad one and hope it works out).

Joker has his gun mobility options for recovery, and it actually works pretty good.

 

[Mithos08]

Struggling big with small characters like MetaKnight.
Good timing with Kirby is also problematic.
Large swords with no sweetspot like Lucina's and Link's too.

 

[~?~]

Struggling big with small characters like MetaKnight.
Good timing with Kirby is also problematic.
Large swords with no sweetspot like Lucina's and Link's too.

I agree with small bodies but I see a lot of swordies struggle to beat jokers that pop off with gun mobility. They try to space but the joker is always staying out of range anyway and causing the swordy players to play more impatient and aggressive, and then punishing them. I think projectile characters and little bodies are generally the only real matchups worth noting against Joker... and I don't mean BoTW Link projectiles, I mean like Yink level projectiles, the kind you can relentlessly spam.

 

[haxfactory]

I agree with small bodies but I see a lot of swordies struggle to beat jokers that pop off with gun mobility.

Swordies are struggling with Joker because they don't know the match up yet.

Getting impatient is a really standard response to not understanding a match up.

---

As for the gun dash waveland tech, you can't act until the animation is over, so it's usage is rather situational.

One of the best ways I've been able to find to use it is to trick people with how much distance I can cover by immediately down tilting.

If I was to gun dash waveland to try to grab, I would be stuffed every time by anyone that expected that option because they would be able to act before I could.

This is especially true of swordies that could space disjoints.

I could see using the slide off on platforms being used similarly to Palutena teleport edge cancels in the long run, but you are overestimating it's usefulness.

Also, I believe the gun dash counts as a dodge and is impacted by the dodge penalty in Ultimate making it laggier the more you use it.

The most useful thing about is the amount of space you can cover.

If someone short hop guns, there are likely only two things they will do from there dash in or dash back.

Dash in your can stuff and dash back doesn't go as far, so for creating space with the dash, you'd need to b reverse the gun and that would telegraph it.

I think there will be some real uses for it long-term, but for now people are just being surprised by it, it isn't really that good of a tool.

---

Also I'm more than aware of Joker's gun mobility options but they really aren't that useful for recovery.

1) They are horribly telegraphed.
2) There is a huge wait time between shots.
3) They don't actually cover that much distance per dash.
4) There seems to be a limit of three dashes in total.
5) They count as a dodge and seem to be affected by the penalty.

Even if you were hit to the very top corner off stage, I doubt you'd be able to make it back to stage with guns alone.

Even if you could, your trajectory would be entirely too obvious.

Guns will likely be important to recovery at some point, but I think primarily in finding a way to mix up recovery.

They aren't a great recovery option in and of themselves.

 

[KenanTheFab]

I've died multiple times at center stage at 95-100% from a forward smash in his passive form. Your information is fake news sir.

>(Some exceptions exist ofc, such as your usual smash attacks.)

 

[Naov]

Simple, don't fear them.

if they use counter simply wait and grab.

Joker is super light so if you are aggresive against him you'll most always have an early KO.

 

[Bobert]

Simple, don't fear them.

if they use counter simply wait and grab.

Joker is super light so if you are aggresive against him you'll most always have an early KO.

Joker is actually fairly heavy for his size. His weight is 93 which isn't actually that light.

 

[Kokiden]

He struggles against Pikachu, Pichu, Megaman, and Sonic from what I've seen.

People running away when Arsene comes out is a mistake. When you run, you're prolonging the time Arsene is out, increasing his chance of owning you, and making Arsene go ham on you since you're on the defensive. Run up and attack him.

I just watched Tsu, a pro Japanese player, get his Joker/Arsene wrecked by Luigi (Elegant) because the Luigi just went ham on him, even when Arsene was out.

Grab him often.

His smash attacks, down B, and up B, are laggy af. People are so hellbent on being aggressive that they don't observe and counteract enough. You can punish him easily if you know what to look for.

 

[MASTER719]

Grabs wreck Arsene. Pummel often.

 

[Kokiden]

Video by Salem on how to counter Joker.

It would be nice if more people noticed this and stopped claiming he’s broken and needs the Olimar treatment like I’ve seen around the web.

https://youtu.be/9qUUxRlcbNU

 

[FartyParty]

As a Joker main, here is my advice if you want to beat me and other Joker mains:

1. Avoid Arsene at all costs. Stay away. Camp out Arsene to the greatest extent possible. This is one of the reasons I swear that Joker loses to both Jigglypuff and Kirby. They can stay away from Arsene with ease, and on some stages they can completely avoid any engagement if they want. Makes things very frustrating for the Joker player.
2. Related to # 1, if you do happen to get killed while Arsene is out, wait on the respawn platform until it disappears and burn a few seconds off the Arsene meter.
3. Shield a lot when you're in kill %. Back throw is Joker's only kill throw and not until very high percent, and his throw combos stop working after low-mid % (technically, some throw combos are possible up to ~60% but really only if the opponent is terrible and doesn't DI or drift at all). If you start shielding a lot from 80% onwards, it will be much more difficult for Joker to kill you. The main risk to you with this tactic is Joker using throws purely to get you off stage, and then edge guarding you. But using your shield a lot will make it very difficult for Joker to land any of his on-stage kill confirms.
4. Don't be so worried about Rebel's Guard on the ground. I see a lot of people complain about this move because it's a counter that can be held and comes out frame 3, but here's the thing. The actual "counter" portion of RG doesn't work consistently. Many times, even if the Joker player makes the correct read and takes a hit with RG, the opponent can still punish it, and this is still true when the hit fully fills the meter and Arsene comes out. I have experienced this so many times playing Joker that I'm very hesitant to use RG when I'm grounded. Even projectile characters can frequently dash in behind the projectile and get a punish after RG absorbs the hit. It's not nearly as a good of a move as people are making it out to be.
5. Exploit Joker's recovery - both of them. Without Arsene, Joker is vulnerable when hanging from the grapple. He doesn't get any invincibility until the player hits another button to retract the grapple and snap to the ledge. With Arsene, his recovery is like Pit's. Yes, it has great range, but you can hit Joker out of it, and it's not that difficult to two-frame. Joker is easier to edge guard than people realize.
6. If ledge trapping Joker, make sure to avoid his ledge get up attack. If you're hit by the get up attack, it will send you to a perfect spot for him to follow up - probably with side-b - and put you in a bad position.
7. Apply shield pressure. Joker doesn't have very good OOS options. Nair is frame 12, dair is frame 13, and up-B is a non-option. His only good attacking OOS options are grab and bair, the first of which can be avoided with spacing and both of which only work in one direction.

 

[Adamonado]

I'm seeming to get mixed opinions. Should we, or should we not camp out Arsen? Are we supposed to wait him out or play aggressively? I have heard people say both and I don't know which is right.

 

[Flowen231]

I'm seeming to get mixed opinions. Should we, or should we not camp out Arsen? Are we supposed to wait him out or play aggressively? I have heard people say both and I don't know which is right.

It is both. Running away and attacking both result in joker not making as much use of his persona. What you do, however depends on certain things:

How well can my character run away? How well can my character safely rush down? How is my opponent playing? What is my opponent expecting?

The thing is that there is no 100% correct answer, your goal is to mitigate arsene as long as possible, and your means varies both by your own matchup experience and knowledge that your opponent gives away mid game.

 

[BlackInk]

It is both. Running away and attacking both result in joker not making as much use of his persona. What you do, however depends on certain things:

How well can my character run away? How well can my character safely rush down? How is my opponent playing? What is my opponent expecting?

The thing is that there is no 100% correct answer, your goal is to mitigate arsene as long as possible, and your means varies both by your own matchup experience and knowledge that your opponent gives away mid game.

What makes Joker so difficult is that he potentially has all of the tools to destroy any gameplan very quickly. I feel like that only few characters like Inkling or Pikachu can be a true threat to him but that depends if Inkling can reach the exact percentage of a booyah combo when she grabs or if Pikachu manages to kill Joker quickly.

 

[Flowen231]

I always play to my advantage vs joker and disengage when I'm not at advantage. For example, without arsene joker can't really contest lucina, so I can kind of play my own game vs him. I beat gun the same way I beat flip kick, eiha is too slow to really be a threat, and joker doesn't have any aerials that dolphin slash loses to oos. When arsene is out my game plan remains largely the same, but I have to watch out for the aegon and improved range so spacing becomes a lot more important.

Also I can juggle him in both forms. Down b is an option that he has to escape, but I deal with that same as any other counter. Once you get good at watching his animation you can charge smash instead of grab since charging a smash lasts longer than his down b.

 

[Vale345]

I'm not so good with joker, but I think a character like Link can win against him. I say this because I fight against the best Link in Rome, ehhhhh.... He use a lot of projectiles and a lot of long TILT. DAMN. So I think use projectiles I think