How to beat fox with DK

[SuperMatt]

&*^% it's hard

I played this matchup a long time today, here are my notes

The goal is clearly to land a grab somehow and then once you do you need to either: A hit a GP or B: if it's not charged, get him off stage

Edge Guarding: dang DK doesn't have many things that work on fox's recovery. The thing I found works the best is to grab the edge and then just play with his mind. Because if you press X from the ledge, Dk's jump ends really soon meaning you can Back air or whatever if the fox firefox's up.

On stage, nair was working well. Also Nair into double jab was catching the fox off guard but im not sure for how long it would've worked.

Obviously, dash dance camp into run away back air works really well if the fox isn't shooting lasers.

Grab at 100% plus is a guaranteed KO on most stages. Cargo up throw up smash lol

Also, I had a hard time coming down safely after up throws and up airs...anyone know how to do this?

Is Up B useful in this matchup besides edge guarding and recovery?

I dont know. Id like to hear other peoples' thoughts on this matchup

Ban FD?

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't ban FD at all. I love the stage in the match-up. I ban Yoshi's Story. I CP Brinstar or FD if it's banned.

Up-B is great if they're like trying to shine -> nair your shield or generally coming down on your shield. As you said it's great for edgeguarding. I had some games vs. Lovage the other day that might go up that will be a decent show of the matchup. Train in the mountains for 3 years for a match, Fox shows up after taking a dump, yet still lose. The important things of the match-up IMO:

1. Get Fox on the ground. Fox has options in most situations, but every character has the same options on land: techroll, tech, getup, getup attack. This is the best situation for landing a grab outside of technical errors.
2. Get him offstage. Even if he's at like 50ish % and you grab him near an edge with your back to it, just bthrow him. He sucks offstage. Jump off with a nair some of the time, stay on stage and dtilt side-bs, ledgegrab, ledgedrop upb.

Nair is eh onstage. It might work a few times as a gimmick but good players will adapt and **** it. Bair is your only real option in the neutral position other than dash dance.

Most of the match-up is simply outplaying the other player and maximizing punishments.

 

[SuperMatt]

hmm nair at least sorta trades with fox' nairplane

once you get hit with a fox nair you should die if the fox is any good lol

 

[Dimitris]

Which char do you play at tournies, SuperMatt?

 

[SuperMatt]

i play mr game and wactch and then DK

 

[Dimitris]

Just wondering, cause you seem to have your own approach to this. I'm of no help though.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I remember Mexican posted something a while back that actually helped me a lot(when im playing the **** ape, obviously, doesnt really apply to Kirby lol)

If you have a fox that's camping DD, more often than not they'll get impatient and rush in with Nair or Dair. You can DD in place and when they run in throw out a dash attack to beat what they throw out and land a free grab. It seems kinda gimmicky and it sort of is, but it does work.

 

[KirbyKaze]

iirc the strat is to trade dash attack with Nair or Dair

but yeah it *****

 

[SuperMatt]

i like the sound of that

i also thought about another trick you might be able to do

you cargo by the ledge jump off and do the normal throw him out there thing and then you fastfall and up B when you are level with the ledge to take away his over B option...then you massacre his up B somehow

i havent been able to test this yet

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

You really have no technical advantages over Fox, so there's no use in trying that. You really have to be a smarter player than him, bait his dair/nair and then bair him out of it, stuff like that. You can't just straight on try to hit him. Also, following his techs is critical. Move him to the edge and then do some edgeguarding on him. If he's near the edge, he'll often try to jump over you, so try to intercept that.

I'm sorry, I can't be of much help here, even though I've played Donkey Kong for a while and main Fox now >_>

And yeah, ban Yoshi's Story, his Waveshine > Usmash is really destructive there. A high ceiling is always to your advantage, a stage with close horizantal edges is good, but a stage like Dreamland is pretty legit as well because you can recover a long, long time, while you can still edgeguard Fox. Please, don't try to recover low and close to the stage, because you are shinespike bait, and that's the worst that can happen. Try to come from far with the up-B and sweetspot the ledge, or land on a platform and quickly glide off to the ground with a fastfall.

Sorry if it seems like I'm rambling on, I just love sharing my thoughts on this. I could post some more if you want and think it could be useful .

 

[SuperMatt]

hmm im not having any luck with the dash attack thing, nair is doing better

what can we do if we hit a down B? i think up tilt is usually hitable but i havent had any success landing anything else...probably up B would hit sometimes but for some reason I never think of trying it...2 B moves combololol

 

[Dimitris]

Well up-b after down-b works for me sometimes.
Most agree you shouldn't down-b though.

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

Can't you just JC grab them after a down B most of the time?
Otherwise, U-tilt into a grab if percentage allows it. Anyway, your goal is to just make sure you get U-airs on them.

 

[SuperMatt]

another trick that is really good is SDI the down air behind fox -> his shine misses -> free grab

i think down B is really good...it covers so much ground

 

[Pink Reaper]

SDI behind shouldnt work lol. Fox's Shine is actually slightly larger behind him than it is in front. Just sayin.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If Fox comes at you with forward momentum, it's easier to SDI behind him a lot of the time than it is to SDI away.

 

[SuperMatt]

note to self: uair combos way up, then down air onto a platform into down smash

FoD, Yoshi's, BF

 

[Strong Badam]

i'd rather do another dair then usmash or fair.

i did fair into the ground -> dj dair on getup attack -> charged usmash on roy a week ago lol

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

Sounds reliable!

 

[Strong Badam]

matt: we played a friendly at MIST (dk vs. fox). what'd you think? =P

 

[SuperMatt]

i dont remember much cause i was so tired lol

i just remember getting gimped with a nair somehow and then winning =P

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah I did nair -> upb edgeguard after a bthrow once IIRC. you still outplayed me obviously. good **** on 4th with Tom tho.

 

[Dimitris]

Did you use DK at MIST, SuperMatt?

 

[SuperMatt]

i did once in pools and lost to a very good fox lol, then i beat him 2 games with my fox

 

[Strong Badam]

good thing you weren't red carded

 

[BigD!!!]

edgeguarding: knock him off the ledge, then fulljump out there and turn around with charge punch. if he fires in a place you expect, up b towards him then make it back, even if its a weak hit it should get him below the level so you can get invincibility and get the strong up b hit. turning around before hand leaves you with the easy option of just dj'ing back and grabbing the ledge too

not an end all be all, but something to keep in mind if youre having trouble dealing with that firefox

 

[Varist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCdgk1hHAVM

Just be as cool as the DK in this video and you'll be ****** Foxes in no time.

Seriously, do you know any Foxes who still DI things? Of course you don't. DK + Fox + FD = archetypal DK ****-setup. Go win you champions, all the world willingly aides you.

 

[Nedech]

&*^% it's hard

The goal is clearly to land a grab somehow and then once you do you need to either: A hit a GP or B: if it's not charged, get him off stage

Not necessarily. On stages with platforms the main purpose of your grabs should be to rack up some serious damage. Very rarely will you be able to land a GP (unless it's FD); be satisfied with a Bair that could knock him off the stage, and thus entail to an edgeguard opportunity.

Edge Guarding: dang DK doesn't have many things that work on fox's recovery. The thing I found works the best is to grab the edge and then just play with his mind. Because if you press X from the ledge, Dk's jump ends really soon meaning you can Back air or whatever if the fox firefox's up.

Yes and no.

Throw Fox off the stage and se what he does. If he flashes towards you (which Fox players are always tempted to do seeing as it could lead to a Uair and/or Bair, should it hit you), you should be able to react fast enough in order to interrupt it with an Ftilt, jab or Bair. If he flashed above you, onto a platform, land a headbutt and try to start a combo.

Things might become problematic if the Fox decided to sweetspot the ledge. You'll simply have to read him and hog it before him or attempt to land a Dtilt followed by grabbing the ledge and using Up-B to finish him.

On stage, nair was working well. Also Nair into double jab was catching the fox off guard but im not sure for how long it would've worked.

Nair into jab might work on semi-high percentage. The Fox will be pushed back a bit. On lower percentage Fox can easily CC them and grab and/or shine you. Nair is decent for the sake of diversity, but I wouldn't emphasize on using it a lot.

Obviously, dash dance camp into run away back air works really well if the fox isn't shooting lasers.

Yes, this is great. It's great even if the Fox is spamming lasers. Once you approach a campy Fox, it's not too unlikely that they'll jump onto you with a Nair. If you time your dash dance properly you should be able to land a Bair on him.

Also, I had a hard time coming down safely after up throws and up airs...anyone know how to do this?

I think it's a peripheral aspect of the matchup. You have an extra jump (most of the time), DI, airdodge, Bair and Dair. This fosters a lot of opportunities to survive.

You could also attempt to DI slightly away from the stage and grab the ledge - this is risky though, but you should be able to safely make it back if you're below 100%.

Is Up B useful in this matchup besides edge guarding and recovery?

Use it if the Fox is stupid enough to approach you from above. There are also times when you can finish a combo with it. You never know what happens during those platform combos with DK. Sometimes I like to randomly throw it out when they're in the air and hope for the lovely 30%+ damage.

Ban FD?

Are you on crack?

I'd also like to mention the use of DK's tilt attacks. They're great. There are even scenarios when Utilt is great. It's very important to apply pressure when the moment is given, especially vs Fox. Fox players love to poke you with Nairs and whatnot in-between the laser spam. Challenge him with an Ftilt. Follow up with a Dtilt or a jab or, heck, why not another Ftilt? Variegate your approaches. Land a grab when you notice him becoming stressed or uncertain.

 

[Strong Badam]

^one of the best DK posts I've seen

 

[Max?]

Nedech for Best DK/Only DK doing anything notable.

Agreed that DK's tilts are underused and quite good, particularly dtilt.

 

[Strong Badam]

why do u hate me otg

 

[Max?]

Strong Bad I <3 you my doo. Go make bracket at a National and I'll bump Nedech down (^.^)

 

[Strong Badam]

i got this

 

[Nedech]

You should consider the fact that I'm not forced to deal with the imbalances of NTSC.

 

[Max?]

That's true, but DK is still horrendous, so major props to you for doing so well with him.

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah I wish I could compete in a PAL environment.
but at the end of the day it just means I need to get better and win anyway

 

[Largemike32197]

Why I think in most cases low tiers should just learn to deal with some matches (not like hyrule temple fox or untouchable match ups) but no matter how you look at it, you let sheik grab you by your mistake. But good luck to you man.

 

[Stevo]

does anyone else find that up-b out of shield doesn't hit fox?
(the initial big hit misses)
he is too short. Also, maybe people are just good at spacing their hits on my shield not too close to the center, I dunno.

It seriously never works for me. Fox can just nair shine my shield all day, and if I try up-b it just whifs and he hits me again before the spin hits start.
I wish I had bowser up-b for the fox/falco matchup.

 

[Strong Badam]

It works if they're close and you're facing Fox.
On Fox shield pressure:
If they do a delayed nair you can catch him with it even if he's behind you, too, if you just use it before he nairs. If they do an immediate nair, do it after shieldstun. 12 damage = 7 frames of shieldstun and 7 frames of hitlag, so do it after ~1/4th of a second if that helps.

In general you just have to mix up what you do in shield; don't become predictable. Sometimes you can even get a shieldgrab if they're in front of you and delay a nair and you predict it. Buffering a roll is also a solid option. You can also buffer a jump after the nair in hopes that you get shined while you're airborne so you can immediately act upon landing.

 

[Stevo]

buffering a jump is something I never thought of.

and if you say it works I'll keep trying.

something I should start doing is trying to escape grabs really fast, cause apparently DK has frame advantage on grab escape. I should start slamming on my controller whenever I get grabbed.