How to beat a very defensive Ness/Lucas as Fox

[ThePut]

I have a friend who is very good at playing defensively as Ness and Lucas. I main Fox and have lots of trouble beating his Ness/Lucas. For one it seems like I always get killed with a back throw. He will go sit at the edge of the stage and wait for me to approach. When he does this, I try to spam with lasers but then he uses his down-b to regain health. With this option out of the way, I feel like my only option is to approach. I feel like Fox's dash attack is useless in this instance because he simply shields then back throws. I sometimes approach with a down air and he simply shields that as well. I feel like my only good option is a grab but sometimes he spot dodges and grabs me. I don't really know how to approach him once he is at the edge of the stage. What makes it worse is that I can die as early as 70ish% even when I DI well.
Also, I have tons of trouble ledge guarding him and struggle hitting him while he is airborne. When he uses his second jump close to the stage he also air dodges, but before I can punish his landing, he pulls out a nair or just grabs me. A similar thing happens when I attempt to up air or back air him. I feel like I can never punish his air dodge because his intangibility lasts so long and he almost has no landing lag.
Lastly, lots of my combos seem to be nullified by his nair and air dodges. My up-tilts rarely chain, and my down throw to fair never works. It's frustrating because Fox is definitely my best character, but can't seem to beat Ness or Lucas. Usually I end up playing with Rosalina and Luma and destroy him, but I am not satisfied because I want to beat him with my main. Ness and Lucas seem to be good zoning characters, and when I play with Fox I have to enter their zones to hit, but seem to always get punished. Rosalina and Luma seems to be a good counter because I can throw out attacks without getting punished.
Does anyone have any pointers on how I can beat Ness and Lucas as Fox?

 

[BossBabyInSmash]

Down-b has a lot of lag, so punish it if you can. Also strong hit nair to grab is a true combo and they cant grab you. And fox's best state is when your opponent is on the ledge so you can ledge trap them. Also since they are killing you at 70%, they are probably using smash attacks, and ness's smash attacks have a lot of end lag so you can punish them.

 

[Phatty]

I'm not really a fox main (I just picked him up a couple of weeks ago) but hopefully, this will help.

When he goes to the edge to fish for grabs you could try baiting a shield grab. Landing Nair is only -3 or -4 (sweet/sour) on block so you could land with Nair, buffer spotdodge, and then use a smash attack when he tries to shieldgrab. You also mentioned that he spotdodges when you try to run up and grab. Instead, you could run up right in front of him while he's shielding, then RAR full or short hop Bair to mix him up. Bair is only -5 on block so it's not too risky. You could also use jab if he spotdodges but that is pretty risky.

It also sounds like you are getting too aggressive. Try doing more dance dashing and making your approaches more ambiguous. Having more mobility than your opponent means you have more control over when to engage than he does. It also sounds like you're doing Utilt one time too many. It might help to practice some BnBs on floatier characters so you know what works. Lastly, I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Dthrow>Fair is never true.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I have a friend who is very good at playing defensively as Ness and Lucas. I main Fox and have lots of trouble beating his Ness/Lucas. For one it seems like I always get killed with a back throw. He will go sit at the edge of the stage and wait for me to approach. When he does this, I try to spam with lasers but then he uses his down-b to regain health. With this option out of the way, I feel like my only option is to approach. I feel like Fox's dash attack is useless in this instance because he simply shields then back throws. I sometimes approach with a down air and he simply shields that as well. I feel like my only good option is a grab but sometimes he spot dodges and grabs me. I don't really know how to approach him once he is at the edge of the stage. What makes it worse is that I can die as early as 70ish% even when I DI well.
Also, I have tons of trouble ledge guarding him and struggle hitting him while he is airborne. When he uses his second jump close to the stage he also air dodges, but before I can punish his landing, he pulls out a nair or just grabs me. A similar thing happens when I attempt to up air or back air him. I feel like I can never punish his air dodge because his intangibility lasts so long and he almost has no landing lag.
Lastly, lots of my combos seem to be nullified by his nair and air dodges. My up-tilts rarely chain, and my down throw to fair never works. It's frustrating because Fox is definitely my best character, but can't seem to beat Ness or Lucas. Usually I end up playing with Rosalina and Luma and destroy him, but I am not satisfied because I want to beat him with my main. Ness and Lucas seem to be good zoning characters, and when I play with Fox I have to enter their zones to hit, but seem to always get punished. Rosalina and Luma seems to be a good counter because I can throw out attacks without getting punished.
Does anyone have any pointers on how I can beat Ness and Lucas as Fox?

sounds like your movement is stiff and one-dimensional.

set the timer to 5 mins or however long, play against a CPU (say kirby, or someone that's slow), high lvls, but do not attack them. Think of the range where they're most dangerous at. Be on the EDGE of that area, and stay there. don't be too far, but don't get hit also. practice that dance. This will help with movement.

 

[Starssb]

Down b when they use pk fire/pk freeze