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How should Marcina fight against Greninja

Crissaegrim

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 24, 2015
Messages
13
Between his insane speed, low profile, and kill setups, he seems to be a tough characters to face as Marth/Lucina. How should Marcina fight the frog? Any tips/advice?
 

UtopianPoyzin

Smash Master
Writing Team
Joined
Sep 10, 2018
Messages
4,581
Location
Not sure, I’ll get back to you when I find out.
Switch FC
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hehe Marcina hehe


Somebody else answer; as a Marth/Lucina main I've never referred to myself as a Marcina player, but it IS pretty clever.



Edit: Actually I'll weigh in.

Greninja's N-Special one of the easiest to perfect shield out of all of the projectiles in my opinion. When I play against Greninja I find myself scarcely using special moves because the second you take too long to set up a combo, you're already being punished/countered by the D-Special. When fighting fast opponents, use fast moves. I prefer short-hop aerials and jab combos tbh for going against Greninja.
 
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Crissaegrim

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 24, 2015
Messages
13
I have issues edgeguarding him, he seems to get back for free with the shadow sneak move.
 

Downshift

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
325
I have issues edgeguarding him, he seems to get back for free with the shadow sneak move.
You want to challenge his recovery and not just let him back for free, but don't go deep for it. Hydro Pump's windbox can gimp you if he gets between you and the stage. He also doesn't have a ton of good or fast ledge get-up options, so ledge trapping might be a better approach than direct edge guarding.
 

Phatty

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 9, 2018
Messages
59
Greninja is a TOUGH MU and it's one of my least favorite. I didn't even like it in smash4 and he wasn't nearly as good. As far as shadow sneak offstage goes you can try either parrying it, countering it at high percents or challenging it with Fsmash. Parrying it is pretty difficult though. I've tried it a few times but for some reason, I couldn't get one even when I knew the shadow sneak was coming. For countering, you should wait until Greninja is at high percent to guarantee a kill. Your opponent will definitely feel pretty dumb. Fsmash works because many times when they use shadow sneak offstage they pop up beside the ledge so you can space out a good Fsmash.

In neutral I don't have many solid tips. What worked for me is just getting used to the MU and polishing the way I approach. Marcina mains, myself included, tend to throw out moves to wall out opponents but against characters with high mobility this can be risky. This is especially true with Greninja mains since their main gameplan is to dash dance around, bait out moves, and weave in with his quick combo starters (dash attack, grab, Dtilt) for a good punish. Try not to throw out moves carelessly and don't use dancing blade too much since it's pretty laggy. Mostly try to get a sense for how your opponent dash dances and when he likes to approach. What I've noticed is opponents that rely on bait and punish don't always get right in your face since it's difficult to react if you dash at them. So if you are, say, under the right battlefield platform, they would probably dash around the left one. If you get closer to the middle of the stage it will force them to react and they will have to either decide to attack you or back off and wait for you to make a commitment. This will give you a sense of how they make decisions and it will give you a better idea of how to read them. Mostly, stay patient and play the long game. Don't try to force approaches or you will just get blown up.

The other two ways Greninja mains play are overly aggressive or campy with Nspecial. The overly aggressive variant I find easier than the bait and punish type. Marcina's kit is very good at poking people who try to attack all the time. Try to keep center stage, and use quick moves to box him out. The campy ones are annoying as well. Most of the time their decision making is pretty flow-charty. They'll throw shuriken, wait until their opponent jumps at them, and either intercept in the air or dash back and whiff punish. Try to avoid playing into their gameplan and don't panic and rush at them when you get hit by a couple of shurikens.
 

Vipermoon

King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
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2,661
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PNW
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Counter at ledge against Shadow Sneak kills starting at mid-percents and it always reaches if Greninja is in range of hitting you (even below, as counter attack hits well below), you'll clip his leg at the very least. Even if the Greninja planned to miss, Counter's counter bubble (invisible shield-like spheres that detect attacks) will effectively increase Greninja range, making you easier to hit.

I love how some of them think we don't know they're shadow sneaking.
 

Downshift

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
325
A few more things to know about Greninja is, first, that he really doesn't have a quick short hop Fair or short hop Nair options for approaches. It's hard for him to challenge Marcina's Fairs and Nairs. His fastest option is probably a RAR Bair approach but it's still not disjointed.
Second, Shadow Sneak doesn't snap the ledge so like Phatty said, you can just Fsmash to run off and Bair him before he can Hydro Pump to recover. Then when using Shadow Sneak, Greninja's hurtbox is vulnerable at least a few frames before the hitbox comes out. So just throwing out an attack to intercept it will pretty much always hit him first unless he gets behind you or something.
 

Arcane_

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 26, 2017
Messages
31
Location
South Florida
I do this matchup a lot and almost always get killed by shadow sneak. if you can time it right, countering shadow sneak should work. Jumping over shurikens and punishing that is a good approach option if they do that often. Marths forward air is good for challenging him in the air because it comes out before Greninja's aerials do.
 

Dilan Omer

Smash Apprentice
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Dec 26, 2015
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95
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Netherlands
NNID
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Try to poke him with down tilt as he recovers. Also in neutral shield any of his attacks and counter with down tilt or dancing blade.

Its all about micro spacing in this matchup. But Lucina has the better tools to beat Greninja in Neutral. Its a matchup that you should win.
 
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