How much better would fatso be...

[Deleted member 189823]

How much better would fatso be if he could chaingrab every character in the game?

 

[allshort17]

He'd be around where Olimar is on the tier list now.

 

[Doc King]

It really depends on the chaingrab.

 

[bubbaking]

Not really. If he got a CG on every char, it would always utilize the same throw (dthrow) for starters. Secondly, it would always equate to the opponent being offstage or infinited against a wall into a free kill. He would most definitely be top tier, and he probably would not have any -3's.

 

[Doc King]

Not really. If he got a CG on every char, it would always utilize the same throw (dthrow) for starters. Secondly, it would always equate to the opponent being offstage or infinited against a wall into a free kill. He would most definitely be top tier, and he probably would not have any -3's.

1. It really depends on what chaingrab it is.

2. Well lets get into specifics. You have to be a middleweight or above to be chaingrabbed. We should determine the matchups over other characters:

I would gotta say that Squirtle would probably become worse for this fact. He's pretty good without d throw chaingrab because we have an air release (Which is pretty much like a chaingrab) and being so light that an up tilt will kill so early. Put his weight factor up and we wouldn't be able to kill him as well (His air speed would make it pretty hard to kill). The walkoffs are still available with air releasing. So basically you're giving Squirtle a survivability advantage just so you can get a little extra damage on a chaingrab and situational wall infinites. Plus, he has pretty low traction which will make the grabs less usable (With a little extra that slopes would disrupt the grab pretty well).

This matchup would probably become worse too. We don't really need the chaingrab for anything since Puff is so easy to kill and without it we can actually send her offstage quite decently with the d throw for a lightweight since she goes so far and can't use DI to help. I only think this one would really weaken the matchup like Squirtle, it would probably remain the same (Only get slightly worse imo).

Falco would really improve with the d throw chaingrab. It would really help us give out damage so we can air camp him.

With it it would help, but not a whole lot. We still have many weaknesses against this character than ppl think. He can still edge guard us a lot and camp to a grand extent and without getting good grabs the chaingrab isn't really worth it. Just suffers and that's all.

This matchup would improve pretty well (Not amazingly like Falco but pretty well). We can get a good edge guarding set up and get a good edge guarding game.

This matchup I honestly really think it would become worse for us. Game and Watch we had a really good strength of killing him early. Game and Watch is a really strong opponent when you get in on him. It doesn't seem necessary to change his weight where he becomes immune to D3's up tilt just to have a chaingrab on a character with early kills when really going in on him.

It would become pretty good for us because of our range. It's basically a chaingrabbing battle over a larger range character vs. a good air punishing character.

Basically like Game and Watch, but a little less change over the matchup.

Would improve. We can get a good edge guard set up done and give out damage.

Would improve. Can get good edge guards and damage.

Would improve. It would be like a lot of D3's high tier and top mid tier matchups.

Would improve with damage and edge guarding.

Like Olimar. Would improve a bit but not by much.

So overall. It would help Dedede a little bit in matchups. It's not gonna make him a huge threat to anyone new just makes it even. He would still have a few pretty bad (-2 or -3) matchups like Olimar, Diddy, Climbers, and MK. He's only getting a good Falco and ZSS matchup really, while losing a few of his low tier matchups. He would probably be in like top high/low top tier (Wario's spot).

Also, these results basically mean that the heavy/mid lightweights would improve and the very lightweights would become worse due to the loss of the really early kills while having options against them without the d throw cg just to have a d throw we don't really need.

It would actually cause a little game balance because his -2's (Falco and ZSS) would lower and PT would generally become better because Squirtle won't die in 2 seconds.

 

[allshort17]

Wait, no one said their weight changes. We just have a CG on them at their original weight. It'd probably be easier to kill now because of the free damage we get for the CG. With that increase in damage, all we really need is to bair them offstage, which is doable for most off these characters. Also, a big problem we have is that Dedede is really easy to camp. A CG would not only put them offstage to stop their camping, but it would also mean that even if they make it back onstage they don't have any room to camp because they are at the end of the stage. I believe every MU would go up 1 in our favor except for Falco, however he would be the easiest -2 MU.

 

[bubbaking]

Look at the Ice Climbers. They can CG every char, and thus, they're top tier. Now, I'm not saying that CGs are the only reason they're top tier. Yes, they have desyncing, IBs, blizzard, etc., but let's face it; if the ICs couldn't chaingrab, they'd kinda suck. Fundamentally, I think D3 is a better char with a better moveset and better properties. Therefore, if he could also CG every char, he'd definitely be top tier.

1. It really depends on what chaingrab it is.

No, it doesn't. The CG will always be dthrow. We can only benefit from getting this on more characters.

2. Well lets get into specifics. You have to be a middleweight or above to be chaingrabbed.

Not in this scenario. Swei is proposing a situation in which D3 can CG all chars, regardless of their weights. Changing a char's weight would effectively make that char a different char and would make this scenario too complex to consider, so we're keeping as many things constant as possible. Such are the workings of a thought experiment.

We should determine the matchups over other characters:

I would gotta say that Squirtle would probably become worse for this fact. He's pretty good without d throw chaingrab because we have an air release (Which is pretty much like a chaingrab) and being so light that an up tilt will kill so early. Put his weight factor up and we wouldn't be able to kill him as well (His air speed would make it pretty hard to kill). The walkoffs are still available with air releasing. So basically you're giving Squirtle a survivability advantage just so you can get a little extra damage on a chaingrab and situational wall infinites. Plus, he has pretty low traction which will make the grabs less usable (With a little extra that slopes would disrupt the grab pretty well).

I'm pretty sure that punishable air releases are character-specific. In other words, even if Squirtle became heavier, we'd still get the same air release (like Wario). Now consider the fact that Squirtle doesn't become lighter. Thus, a CG would allow us to easily rack up damage on a char that we can kill really early. Not only that, it would give us a very accessible method of reliably sending Squirtle offstage. Squirtle is a good aerial-based char, but I think he's gimped fairly easily.

This matchup would probably become worse too. We don't really need the chaingrab for anything since Puff is so easy to kill and without it we can actually send her offstage quite decently with the d throw for a lightweight since she goes so far and can't use DI to help. I only think this one would really weaken the matchup like Squirtle, it would probably remain the same (Only get slightly worse imo).

Again, you're thinking too deep into this. Once more, we'd gain an easy damage-racking option on a char which dies early. In fact, this same concept probably applies to all new CGs that we gain. We currently don't have CGs on the thirteen lightest chars. Thus, by acquiring a CG on them, we'd be obtaining a great damage-racker on the chars that die the fastest. In Puff's case, I wouldn't be surprised if we could use a CG to not only rack up damage but also set up 'kill throws' (fthrow and bthrow) immediately after said damage-racking. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to say that Puff is "easy to kill". D3 vs Jiggs is only a +2 for us, and that's just because Puff sucks as a char. She's surprisingly tricky and hard to catch. Anything that helps us accumulate damage on her faster is much appreciated, even if we lose this so-called dthrow launch to send her further offstage.

Falco would really improve with the d throw chaingrab. It would really help us give out damage so we can air camp him.

Why would we air camp Falco if we have a chaingrab on him? I would just keep trying to grab him. A CG almost always equals big damage and the opponent offstage (quite far offstage). That spells death for Falco. As a Spacie, his recovery isn't the best, and the fact that his, in particular, covers the least distance of the three Spacies' recoveries means that he will probably be finished after a few CGs.

With it it would help, but not a whole lot. We still have many weaknesses against this character than ppl think. He can still edge guard us a lot and camp to a grand extent and without getting good grabs the chaingrab isn't really worth it. Just suffers and that's all.

I'm finding it real hard to take you seriously, but you're not trolling so I'll give you an answer. Again, CGs can only help! Olimar SUCKS offstage and CG = opponent offstage. Get the connection?

This matchup I honestly really think it would become worse for us. Game and Watch we had a really good strength of killing him early. Game and Watch is a really strong opponent when you get in on him. It doesn't seem necessary to change his weight where he becomes immune to D3's up tilt just to have a chaingrab on a character with early kills when really going in on him.

Again, no one mentioned changing weights. G&W is still as light as ever.

Basically like Game and Watch, but a little less change over the matchup.

Like Olimar. Would improve a bit but not by much.

A CG would give us the edge we need to finally come out on top against those chars. IMO, a lack of a CG is the only reason Kirby:D3 is even. A CG would make that MU in our advantage. MK would probably still beat us pretty hard but it would be a tough +2 for him as opposed to an easy +2 or even a +3 (which is what many think MK vs D3 really is).

So overall. It would help Dedede a little bit in matchups. It's not gonna make him a huge threat to anyone new just makes it even. He would still have a few pretty bad (-2 or -3) matchups like Olimar, Diddy, Climbers, and MK. He's only getting a good Falco and ZSS matchup really, while losing a few of his low tier matchups. He would probably be in like top high/low top tier (Wario's spot).

Also, these results basically mean that the heavy/mid lightweights would improve and the very lightweights would become worse due to the loss of the really early kills while having options against them without the d throw cg just to have a d throw we don't really need.

It would actually cause a little game balance because his -2's (Falco and ZSS) would lower and PT would generally become better because Squirtle won't die in 2 seconds.

I agree that DDD would become top tier (like the ICs), but this kind of change would make ALL his (affected) MUs improve. CGs can't hurt, they only help. D3 would probably have no -3's and very few -2's.

 

[Doc King]

Wait, no one said their weight changes. We just have a CG on them at their original weight. It'd probably be easier to kill now because of the free damage we get for the CG. With that increase in damage, all we really need is to bair them offstage, which is doable for most off these characters. Also, a big problem we have is that Dedede is really easy to camp. A CG would not only put them offstage to stop their camping, but it would also mean that even if they make it back onstage they don't have any room to camp because they are at the end of the stage. I believe every MU would go up 1 in our favor except for Falco, however he would be the easiest -2 MU.

Basically I was saying this because you need to be that in order to get chaingrabbed. This thread isn't very detailed so you can make up different possibilities.

Look at the Ice Climbers. They can CG every char, and thus, they're top tier. Now, I'm not saying that CGs are the only reason they're top tier. Yes, they have desyncing, IBs, blizzard, etc., but let's face it; if the ICs couldn't chaingrab, they'd kinda suck. Fundamentally, I think D3 is a better char with a better moveset and better properties. Therefore, if he could also CG every char, he'd definitely be top tier.



No, it doesn't. The CG will always be dthrow. We can only benefit from getting this on more characters.



Not in this scenario. Swei is proposing a situation in which D3 can CG all chars, regardless of their weights. Changing a char's weight would effectively make that char a different char and would make this scenario too complex to consider, so we're keeping as many things constant as possible. Such are the workings of a thought experiment.



I'm pretty sure that punishable air releases are character-specific. In other words, even if Squirtle became heavier, we'd still get the same air release (like Wario). Now consider the fact that Squirtle doesn't become lighter. Thus, a CG would allow us to easily rack up damage on a char that we can kill really early. Not only that, it would give us a very accessible method of reliably sending Squirtle offstage. Squirtle is a good aerial-based char, but I think he's gimped fairly easily.



Again, you're thinking too deep into this. Once more, we'd gain an easy damage-racking option on a char which dies early. In fact, this same concept probably applies to all new CGs that we gain. We currently don't have CGs on the thirteen lightest chars. Thus, by acquiring a CG on them, we'd be obtaining a great damage-racker on the chars that die the fastest. In Puff's case, I wouldn't be surprised if we could use a CG to not only rack up damage but also set up 'kill throws' (fthrow and bthrow) immediately after said damage-racking. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to say that Puff is "easy to kill". D3 vs Jiggs is only a +2 for us, and that's just because Puff sucks as a char. She's surprisingly tricky and hard to catch. Anything that helps us accumulate damage on her faster is much appreciated, even if we lose this so-called dthrow launch to send her further offstage.



Why would we air camp Falco if we have a chaingrab on him? I would just keep trying to grab him. A CG almost always equals big damage and the opponent offstage (quite far offstage). That spells death for Falco. As a Spacie, his recovery isn't the best, and the fact that his, in particular, covers the least distance of the three Spacies' recoveries means that he will probably be finished after a few CGs.



I'm finding it real hard to take you seriously, but you're not trolling so I'll give you an answer. Again, CGs can only help! Olimar SUCKS offstage and CG = opponent offstage. Get the connection?



Again, no one mentioned changing weights. G&W is still as light as ever.



A CG would give us the edge we need to finally come out on top against those chars. IMO, a lack of a CG is the only reason Kirby:D3 is even. A CG would make that MU in our advantage. MK would probably still beat us pretty hard but it would be a tough +2 for him as opposed to an easy +2 or even a +3 (which is what many think MK vs D3 really is).



I agree that DDD would become top tier (like the ICs), but this kind of change would make ALL his (affected) MUs improve. CGs can't hurt, they only help. D3 would probably have no -3's and very few -2's.

You know the fact that you said the cg will always be d throw (What the game has as a requirement) and explain how the weights won't change (What the game has as a requirement) seems very hypocritical (Like we have air release on Squirtle).

Also, you mentioned how we can get Squirtle off of the stage better with the down throw when we already have that with air release. We basically have a chaingrab on him so it would stay the exact same thing as it is.

Now Olimar you don't know how bad it is. You will have a really hard time getting grabs and Olimar has like the best options towards D3.

For everybody else it will help out pretty well except for probably situational and/or theorycraft Jiggly Puff stuff. (This is for non weight changing d throw chaingrab)

D3 would still be like low top/top high tier (Wario's spot). He still has Oli Climbers and Diddy -2 matchups.

Also, the differences is that Climbers have infinites on everybody and D3 doesn't. If D3 had infinites on everybody he would probably be a top top tier character.

This thread is so scrub so I'm done with this.

 

[bubbaking]

You know the fact that you said the cg will always be d throw (What the game has as a requirement) and explain how the weights won't change (What the game has as a requirement) seems very hypocritical (Like we have air release on Squirtle).

Also, you mentioned how we can get Squirtle off of the stage better with the down throw when we already have that with air release. We basically have a chaingrab on him so it would stay the exact same thing as it is.

Now Olimar you don't know how bad it is. You will have a really hard time getting grabs and Olimar has like the best options towards D3.

For everybody else it will help out pretty well except for probably situational and/or theorycraft Jiggly Puff stuff. (This is for non weight changing d throw chaingrab)

D3 would still be like low top/top high tier (Wario's spot). He still has Oli Climbers and Diddy -2 matchups.

Also, the differences is that Climbers have infinites on everybody and D3 doesn't. If D3 had infinites on everybody he would probably be a top top tier character.

It can't be any throw other than dthrow unless you're drastically changing the game's physics or giving D3 some form of infinite. What I said about assuming weights don't change is not hypocritical, it's scientific method. Go to high school, will ya?

An air release is NOT a chaingrab. A CG means we get to pile up damage and then air release. We'd get BOTH benefits. How does that not help?

Yes, I'll admit that grabbing Oli probably won't get any easier, but actually pulling it off would be so much more rewarding, and as I said earlier, it would lead to killing seups since Oli is so easily gimped.

There's no way "Theorycraft" Jiggs stuff can argue that a CG on her would not improve the MU in our favor.

I'll agree that D3 would probably still have a -2 against ICs, but I really think Oli would improve to a tough +1. Also, we already get a CG against Diddy, so why are you stating the obvious fact that our MU against him would remain at -2?

You completely misconstrued what I said about the ICs. I clearly said that the ICs are better with their assortment of tools and even with CGs on everyone, D3 is not comparable, but I was using the ICs as an analogy. If they did not have infinites on everyone, they would not be where they are now. Heck, they might not even be in high tier.

This thread is so scrub so I'm done with this.

I can't believe you said this after all the ridiculous things you stated...

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I apologize for the apparent lack of detail. I thought it would be obvious I was desreguarding the fact that the character weights and 3D's D-Throw chaingrab wouldn't change in my idea. :D

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I don't understand why this thread is still active lol.

 

[bubbaking]

Same here. I thought we reached a consensus pretty quickly, lolz!