How many of you...

[BlueTerrorist]

DI the ASC? (What I mean is moving Sonic left and right before releasing the ASC) Do you think it's useful in your game?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Yeah. It's one of my favorite ways to counter someone. I'll jump back and ASC. If they chase me I move RIGHT out of their range and let it rip.

 

[infomon]

Yes Yes Yes.

Backwards SH ASC-charge leaning backwards; it allows you to space it very well, and it's a great setup because you can spinshot, shield-cancel (gives you a nice little slide forward), SDR at full speed, or SDJ/VSDJ. It's awesome.

I do that a lot, as a fakeout/pressure tactic. If you really want to go on the false-offensive, SH towards (lean the charge forward) and your opponent will have to respond lol.

Actually I also use it a lot to recover, like if I'm high enough, I'll start charging an ASC like I normally might to get back to the stage, except I'll just leave it in the charging state and drift back+forth until I'm sure I have an opening. And you can even just let the charges run out.

 

[R4ZE]

move it whichever direction to get the tredjectory that you want.

 

[Camalange]

Yeah, I almost always jump backwards when I do the ASC.

 

[infomon]

... he's talking about charging down-B, you can move the control stick anywhere between down-left and down-right, which controls your horizontal aerial momentum while charging.

Wait, maybe that was already clear to everyone. iunno

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Yeah. We know. Given MK's kinda lousy mobility this is a LIFESAVER in MK matches.

 

[Espy Rose]

I DI ASC for recovery mostly, but I tend to also DI itto position myself better before letting loose.

 

[darkNES386]

I'm experimenting with short hops that involve instantly canceling an ASC before it's actually released as kind of mind game.

 

[da K.I.D.]

do you mean like what RATS does?

and ill be honest here, i didnt know you could do this and i will be using it in the future

 

[darkNES386]

short hop... start a spin charge by only tapping b once... and don't release it.

Then jump tap down and the moment you hit b release down or roll the joystick away from down to like back or forward.

Now... Try to jump forward or backwards by holding diagonal forward/backward and tap B and slide the joystick away from down to cancel your spin as fast as possible. Of course all Sonic's crazy cancel stuff means nothing by itself, but if you mix it up right and throw in a couple actual attacks and such...

My logic:
Why waste your time with empty short hops when instead you can do empty short hops while possibly starting up an ASC or grounded spin charge. Sometimes maybe you'll not cancel it and actually land on the ground and release it or... perhaps you'll pull a VSDJ or whatever floats your boat for the situation.

To clarify... I'm not talking about shield canceled ASCs... but you might as well throw thoughs in too. Basically... I really want to see myself/someone else really make Sonic as crazy and unpredictable as possible. Of course... the conservative Sonic players are doing the best right now so maybe it's futile to take this path.

 

[da K.I.D.]

if you short hop a single charge asc, will it cancel before you land, cus in my mind if you want to cancel it, than youhave to wait a tiny bit after you hit the ground

 

[Tenki]

lololol yey. I've done alot of this.

I have bad patterns though.

I noticed that if I do a standing/retreating sh ASC, I tend to release it, but if I SH forward at opponent, I tend to cancel it. See if you have weird patterns like that in your game, and get rid of them (or use them to your advantage... lol - remember, if you're "predictable", then let your enemy predict you... ;])

Here are some other interesting 'bad' patterns that you can possibly turn around into points to counter-predict your opponent if you're attentive:
- releasing ASC as soon as your opponent lines up with a Forward-ASC trajectory.
- Attacking directly with ASC > landing in front of an opponent's shield (YOU CAN GET GRABBED D: )

Random cool things:
- Charging ASC, but not releasing it: Control it via the "charge DI", then release and shield cancel into a backward roll/shield-release dash attack or something.
- IF YOU EVER EVER GET INTO THE POSITION WHERE YOU TRY TO LEDGEHOP AN ASC AND ACCIDENTALLY WALLHOP AN ASC:
- -1) Keep holding [down]
- -2) Stop pressing [b ]
- -3) wait until the charge dies, then spring lol.


- You can do a 'rising ASC' if you start a down-B as soon as you jump, and release it as soon as possible. It's more of a 'horizontal' thing, but it actually has some airtime where it's going upwards if you do it right lol.

- Not actually charging the down-B (like BT said, just hit down-B but release [down] ASAP) is cool - just don't do it too close to your opponent

 

[infomon]

I tried for a long time to SH-FF-ASC-shieldcancel (and not just because the acronym SHFFASCSC is epic), but unfortunately, the FF is too fast to allow the ASC to get its first charge in. I've always just thought SH-ASC-SC would be better than a SH and empty (no charge) ASC. That ending lag is so brutal, you can't do anything, at least with ASC you can spinshot out if you think you're in danger, or cancel, or jump.... I'll practice shorthopping empty ones though to see if I can find a use for it in my game.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i agree with infzy,
btw, what the hell does your name mean,

i was saying infinzy in my head in for like 4-5 months after i met you, your like that one guy, whose name makes no sense but still says really smart stuff, like asdioh in the kirby boards (everyone ends up spelling it asidoh)

 

[Napilopez]

I used to never do it, but now i definitely incorporate it tons. It helps tremendously for spacing. Try to Reverse Aerial Rush ASCs, its too good and lets you easily DI ASCs backwards, incase you have trouble doing that.

 

[infomon]

i agree with infzy,
btw, what the hell does your name mean,

i was saying infinzy in my head in for like 4-5 months after i met you, your like that one guy, whose name makes no sense but still says really smart stuff, like asdioh in the kirby boards (everyone ends up spelling it asidoh)

LOL. Yeah, I feel kinda bad, everyone gets angry trying to pronounce my name... irl it's kinda hilarious

A very long time ago I started using the handle "infohigh", based on the song "Information High" from Macross Plus. Eventually I shortened it to "infz" and/or "infzy" for typability/brevity, and to drop the "high" connotation (I'm actually quite straightedge lol).

The thing is, I never really pronounce it, or like it's easier to think than to articulate, and it's real easy to type, which I do a lot of, just the way I transfer files around different machines and stuff. Makes me sad when people try to pronounce it "infanzy" lol >.>

/irrelevantrant

 

[R4ZE]

lololol yey. I've done alot of this.

I have bad patterns though.

I noticed that if I do a standing/retreating sh ASC, I tend to release it, but if I SH forward at opponent, I tend to cancel it. See if you have weird patterns like that in your game, and get rid of them (or use them to your advantage... lol - remember, if you're "predictable", then let your enemy predict you... ;])

Here are some other interesting 'bad' patterns that you can possibly turn around into points to counter-predict your opponent if you're attentive:
- releasing ASC as soon as your opponent lines up with a Forward-ASC trajectory.
- Attacking directly with ASC > landing in front of an opponent's shield (YOU CAN GET GRABBED D: )

Random cool things:
- Charging ASC, but not releasing it: Control it via the "charge DI", then release and shield cancel into a backward roll/shield-release dash attack or something.
- IF YOU EVER EVER GET INTO THE POSITION WHERE YOU TRY TO LEDGEHOP AN ASC AND ACCIDENTALLY WALLHOP AN ASC:
- -1) Keep holding [down]
- -2) Stop pressing [b ]
- -3) wait until the charge dies, then spring lol.


- You can do a 'rising ASC' if you start a down-B as soon as you jump, and release it as soon as possible. It's more of a 'horizontal' thing, but it actually has some airtime where it's going upwards if you do it right lol.

- Not actually charging the down-B (like BT said, just hit down-B but release [down] ASAP) is cool - just don't do it too close to your opponent

For the bad patterns, in all honestly you should probobly lesson the use of ASC in your game. Sonic has PLENTY of other usefull moves to use. ASC is really good, but its not spammable at all. and its FAR better when used only somtimes because it deals more damage, has more knockback, and most importantly, catches people off gaurd more.
(but it is definately good to over-use ASC for the purpose of mastering it)


the upwards ASC kinda resembles a Side-b right(initial hop kinda)? I think that i have done that while recovering somtimes.

 

[Tenki]

For the bad patterns, in all honestly you should probobly lesson the use of ASC in your game.

Of course.

What I was hinting at was countering the opponent's anti-ASC reaction with a variable of the approach.

Like if you can get your opponent to start committing to an attack because they think you'll release the ASC when you line up with them, then land and do either an SDR or charge until you're about to land and shield cancel it, then you're in business. Maybe even spinshot over and drop a spring or something instead.

If your opponent likes to try to grab you out of ASC, then try to aim the charge to land in front of but out of their shieldgrab range and be ready to punish it out of shield.

That's the beauty with Sonic's specials - with the exception of being walled by the edge or something, you can almost always find a counter-counterreaction.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Of course.

What I was hinting at was countering the opponent's anti-ASC reaction with a variable of the approach.

Like if you can get your opponent to start committing to an attack because they think you'll release the ASC when you line up with them, then land and do either an SDR or charge until you're about to land and shield cancel it, then you're in business. Maybe even spinshot over and drop a spring or something instead.

If your opponent likes to try to grab you out of ASC, then try to aim the charge to land in front of but out of their shieldgrab range and be ready to punish it out of shield.

That's the beauty with Sonic's specials - with the exception of being walled by the edge or something, you can almost always find a counter-counterreaction.

That's basically what I was talking about in that one MK post I made a while back.

 

[darkNES386]

Forget fast fall. That doesn't work. Let me attempt to clarify with a simpler demonstration:

On the ground hold down and tap b ONCE. Note how long sonic takes to stop spinning.

Now try it but the moment you tap B release down or roll to forwards or backwards. Sonic will stop spinning much faster. Now if you do this in the air you can short hop - without fast falling - and land without any lag. It allows you to feint an ASC attack. Your opponent hears the sound and is expecting something to happen.

 

[SonicX580]

ASC is very useful to me but sometimes it can fail me for recovery when I recover from being knocked off the stage sometimes it doesn't go to the stage.

 

[darkNES386]

ASC is very useful to me but sometimes it can fail me for recovery when I recover from being knocked off the stage sometimes it doesn't go to the stage.

Try saving your second jump so that you can cancel out of your ASC and either jump back to edge or jump and spring or even jump and do a >B special.

 

[SonicX580]

Yeah but it kind of diffcult to me to that when a opponent is constantly interuppting me but I been training for that darkNES386.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Forget fast fall. That doesn't work. Let me attempt to clarify with a simpler demonstration:

On the ground hold down and tap b ONCE. Note how long sonic takes to stop spinning.

Now try it but the moment you tap B release down or roll to forwards or backwards. Sonic will stop spinning much faster. Now if you do this in the air you can short hop - without fast falling - and land without any lag. It allows you to feint an ASC attack. Your opponent hears the sound and is expecting something to happen.

i will try this


is it just me or does holding sheild neutralise the down b charge faster than normal

 

[darkNES386]

i will try this


is it just me or does holding sheild neutralise the down b charge faster than normal

It's probably just those what-cha-ma-call-it frames. Releasing down seems to do the trick for me.

 

[da K.I.D.]

IASA frames

possibly, i just think, that at any charge, holding shield makes the charge disipate faster, but im not sure

 

[darkNES386]

I didn't mean to take this topic in a different direction BT.

Most of my regulars I play with are really good at spacing against my Sonic. If I'm going to perform a short hop ASC I'm usually DIing away from them and trying to stop their advancement instead of actually attacking with it. I don't want to spin into a shield grab or worse smash attack. The risk/reward ratio isn't that great for me when I try to ASC in a way that goes far enough to avoid the grab.