How I would improve Jigglypuff. #BUFFTHEPUFF

RDR7

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Messages
62
#1
Big ol' thanks to Masonomace for inspiring me with his Shulk frame analysis thread, professionally pointing out problems and ways to fix said problems to his character. My answer is simple but it's a LONG simple answer. Jigglypuff has been nerfed from she used to be and the characters around her have gotten stronger making her seem a lot more frail. Yet she hasn't been touched or bothered to be balanced as a whole. I'll discuss her moves, but I'll add how I'll improve them: frame by frame, any sort of knockback change, FAF, and add a frame analysis to each move.
- Keep in mind.
When I list something in red I'm stating something I'd like to see change for the better or when I'm covering something that I'm not very happy with.
When I list something in green I'm stating something I'm already happy with and I don't recommend change.
When I list something in yellow its to just take note be like "Hey! Notice this!"
When I list something in white it's just general describing or normal discussion.

What I know during my analysis.
-How Jigglypuff does her moves is dependent on the direction she is facing. Whether she will use her right arm or left arm for jab 1 and 2 or use her left or right foot for all of her tilts depending on the direction.
Jigglypuff's Moveset.
- Jab 1
Hitbox active: 5-6
FAF:17

Jigglypuff pulls her body back on frame 1, and prepares a slap with her right arm (facing left) or left arm (facing right). She then instantly punches forward whilst standing on one foot and her mouth open. During this her arm is drastically larger than in her neutral position and a white whiff appears on her arm at around frame 6. Her arm then shrinks back to normal size and the white whiff starts to vanish at frame 10. She smiles at frame 14 and for the last few frames she is returning to -her neutral position. As soon as her arms return to their neutral position this is when she can act on frame 17.
- What I would change
This move is great. I can't think of many ways to improve it besides making the FAF sooner to 16 and how about a jab reset?
- Jab 2
Hitbox active: 5-6
FAF:20

Jigglypuff readys her right arm (facing right) or left arm (facing left) and stands in a fashion similar to that of pound. She then on frame 3 begins to swing for a punch, leaning her body forward a lot more than jab 1. The white whiff appears more appropriately here than in jab 1 as it instantly appears on cue (frame 5). The white whiff disappears at frame 10. She then retracts her arms, her curl waves a little, and she begins returning to her neutral position at frame 16. She then finally begins standing in said position at frame 20.
- What I would change
She is unable to act for 2 frames while being in a reasonable position but not in her neutral position. I personally think this endlag is overall unecessary specifically frames 17 and 18. Jab 2 should have the same FAF as Jab 1 if anything. But can we give a round of applause for this hitbox!?

- Forward Tilt
Hitbox active: 7-10
FAF:28
Jigglypuff pulls her right foot (facing left) or left foot (facing right) pack and prepares for a spinning kick on frame 1. Her foot gets drastically bigger as the hitbox is active (7-10). She then spins right (facing right) or left (facing left) from frame 12 to 22. Then after preforming a single rotation then both of her feet touch the ground and her ears lower (cute but this cooldown ruins a lot of this move's potential). She then returns to her neutral position and is able to act at frame 28.
- What I would change
The cool down I discussed plus returning to her neutral position is the endlag of this move. I personally think she should have FAF at frame 26 or 27 rather than 28. A small change but its just a bit too slow.
- Down Tilt
Hitbox active: 10-12
FAF:31

Jigglypuff pulls her foot back like forward tilt on frame 1 and 2. For frame 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7, her foot is still behind her. She then crosses her foot to the median of her body at frame 8 and 9. Then finally delivers a downwards kick. A white whiff appears at around frame 12 and her right foot (facing left) or left foot (facing right) extends then she begins to retract her foot back. At frame 16 the white whiff dissappears. For the next 15 frames Jigglypuff is spending her time putting her foot back into place then finally returns to her neutral position able to act at a terrible frame 31.
- What I would change
Personally I believe the FAF isn't the worst part of this move however it can be reduced by 3 or 4 frames. The even worse part is the time it takes for Jigglypuff to start this move is absolutely horrific for a move that is not going to kill until 140 at the edge. While the damage is decent I would take this move doing 9 damage and starting up at frame 8. Rather than it's current state where I would only hit it on accident or just for a odd spacing option.
- Up Tilt
Hitbox active: 9-10, 11-13 (Late)
FAF:24

Jigglypuff stands on the tips of her little feet raising her arms and looking up frame 1. She then on frame 2-5 pulls the foot she is about to kick with forward then on to frame 6,7, and 8 pulls it back. On frame 9 the move starts and the hitbox ends suddenely on frame 10. She then uses her arms and other foot to balance herself on frame 10-14 (adorable) whilst lowering her foot on frame 13. The rest of the move she is lowering her foot back to the ground for a good 10 frames. Then when her mouth closes and she is smiling this when the move is over and can act on frame 24. This move overall is okay. Kind of unnecessary startup however, which can be reduced by 2 frames. The FAF is great! Resulting in this move being VERY hard to punish on shield.
- What I would change
It's also nifty that the move kills at 120-140 however...I believe uptilt should start about say...2 frames sooner. (frame 7). The move is in a median of not enough knockback and too much to the point where it CAN be useful just in strict circumstances. Jigglypuff 's uptilt should have at least a have a bit more range behind her like in the melee image. While it is rather ridiculous Jigglypuff is a character that needs bigger hitboxes than she has now. . Also a big thanks to Furil for making the second image possible so early. *clap clap*
Melee

Sm4sh

- Dash Attack
Hitbox active: 5-19, 10-20 (Late)
FAF:40

Jigglypuff on frame 1 is in a very very similar animation as dash but is looking towards the direction she is about to dash attack. Onto Frame 3 her eyes show an angry gesture and a white trail of wind appears behind her as she is ready to be airborne. Frame 5 the hitbox is out and she is facing the ground airborne with her feet lower to the ground. Frame 5-19 is how long she is airborne then touches the ground at frame 20 landing on her head. Frame 20 to 30 she is picking herself up and is magically bouncing herself back up to her feet from frame 30 to 40 and is now on her feet at frame 39. She is able to act very early. 5 frames earlier in fact.
- What I would change
This move overall is almost perfect. The only downfall is its not safe on hit until low mid percents which can be solved by increasing the bkb from its current state. It's in my opinion her best ground move, possessing trample and staying active for 15 frames. Also keep in mind these images of the moves are different from the actual game. The aesthetics are different. I.E Jigglypuff's eyes not showing an angry gesture.

- Forward Smash
Hitbox active: 16-19, 20-24 (Late)
FAF: 50

Jigglypuff on frame 1 is readying her left foot (facing right) or right foot (facing left) looking towards the direction she is about to kick. Then on frame 3 is readying for a kick but SIKE! On frame 5 for some reason she retracts her foot back into neutral position THEN from frame's 7 to 11 is about to lunge THEN ready the kick. Frames 12 to 15 she is lunging and her foot begins to stick out on frame 16. Frame 27 is when she begins to start lowering her foot. She squishes up still with the angry gesture at frames 35 to 41. Then she readjusts herself for the last 9 frames and finally finishes the move at frame 50.
-What I would change
The first 3 or 4 frames of this move are unnecessary. It looks like Jigglypuff forgets what she is doing, then tries for the kick a second time upon remembering. It's silly and those 3 frames can be chopped. It seems like a silly excuse to make the move slower. Here are some image examples. (NOTICE THE FIRST FEW FRAMES)

This is not present in melee, it started in brawl. The only ingame example I could find was dapuffster's hitbox video. https://youtu.be/lBYx_Ld3lUM?t=1m24s (Time stamped put it in 0.5 speed and it is visible.)
Here is the melee example and honestly, this is how it SHOULD have stayed.


As a whole however the hitboxes follow the animation fine and she has reasonable FAF.
- Up Smash
Hitbox active: 16-19
FAF: 46

Jigglypuff opens her mouth and is in a similar stance as her neutral position on frame 1. She then begins lifting her arms up to her head on frames 3-7. On frame 9 she puts her arms back down and a spark appears above her head. Frame 11-13 she pulls her body back then on frame 14 she shows an angry gesture. Frame 16 the hitbox starts up and Jigglypuff's head gets bigger. Frame 18 her head becomes massive as a purple and green whiff appears. Frame 20 the hitbox ends and thus starts the cooldown. Frame 22-45 she reamains in cool down with her head pulled forward making an angry gesture. Might I say the FAF is VERY GENEROUS on this move. Jigglypuff can act out 8 frames quicker than melee.
- What I would change
The downside is the startup and knockback being a little too slow. I'd knock it down from 16 to 11 frames. I'd also add some knockback ( +15 KBG ) to make this move more volatile. The inner part of the hitbox is incredibly strong, however it's not very big and harder to earn in neutral than rest. The hitbox itself in this game isn't very great. As opposed to melee. It should cover more distance behind her.
The first two images below is the comparison of the melee and sm4sh hitboxes.
Melee (Notice the large hitbox behind her)
Sm4sh (notice this is not the same frame. The hitbox stays the same throughout the move and does not extend as opposed to melee.)

If I were to add a hitbox I would lay it around here. Basically extend it more behind her just not as high as the rectangle has it.


- Down Smash
Hitbox active: 14-15
FAF: 49

Jigglypuff opens her mouth and begins to face the screen on frame 1. Frame 3 her arms are rising and she is standing on the tips of her feet. Frame 5 she stops suddenly and faces right or left depending on the direction in a similar stance to that of her neutral stance. Frame 7 she then rises up a little and stops rising on frame 9. She begins to lower her body on frame 11 to frame 13. Frame 14-15 the hitbox is out and her feet start to extend with a green and purple whiff and two sound wavish circles appearing on each side. The whiffs disappear frame 19, followed by smoke and two sparkles on each side of her body. The smoke vanishes on frame 31 and she is still facing the screen. On frame 35 she starts smiling then begins to rotate lifting her right foot. The move has FAF as soon as she is facing left ways at an 11 o clock angle (facing left) or right ways at an 1 o clock angle on frame 49.
- What I would change
I don't like this move almost entirely as a whole. It's absolutely terrible. The hitboxes, the startup, knockback, and the damage. The only forgiving thing about this move is the FAF, which isn't superior to upsmash nor is it as rewarding as upsmash or forward smash. I would tweak the startup to frame 11 making the move's FAF be 46, boost the kbg to 80 to boost its already terrible KO power, and buff the damage by 1. As for the hitboxes.
Melee
Sm4sh
Notice the extreeeeme difference. I know I know I'm just spurting out melee melee melee. Puff is just a character that needs bigger hitboxes than she already possesses. As of now they are too small and with how slow these moves are and their reward and range...doesn't add up.
My improvement
Laying hitboxes around here near the squares will not only improve the range, but with the improvements I would add as stated before would make this move safer in neutral and more rewarding rather than just being in your moveset collecting dust.

- Neutral Air
Hitbox Active: 6-7, 8-30 (LATE LOL I LOVE THIS HITBOX)

FAF: 44
Autocancel: 1-3, 40>

Jigglypuff on frame 1 opens her moth and has her feet ready. Frame 3 to 5 she readys her foot . Frame 5 the white whiff appears early and her left foot (facing right) right foot (facing left) extends. Frame 7 her foot immediately gets smaller and back to normal size. From frames 9 to 30 she has her arms in the air and feet in a sort of judo kick pose. Frame 31 she starts to retract her feet and for the rest of the move she is pulling back her feet and on frame 44 the move ends returning to her aerial neutral position.
- What I would change
This move is absolutely brilliant. Staying out for 24 frames, can kill, does 11 damage (6 sourspotted) which is great for an aerial like this. It's a great get off me move, can be followed up from dair, fair, and uptilt. But I have 1 gripe. It has always been frame 6 however in a game like this where characters are more volatile in the air. Jigglypuff's nair should be frame 3 competing with that of Yoshi and Mario's. I'm almost tempted to say frame 2. Jigglypuff is supposed to be THE aerial character and she is getting swatted away from characters she should be able to combo IN THE AIR.
- Forward Air
Hitbox Active: 8-9, 10-20 (Late)
FAF: 37
Autocancel: 1-3, 28>

Jigglypuff on frame 1 has her feet readying but not pulled back yet. Frame 3 she pulls her feet back and has them pulled back up to frame 6. Frame 7 she releases as a black spark starts behind her indicating the white whiff is appearing but there is no hitbox. Frame 8 she releases and starts the kick. Her feet are completely covered by the white whiff frame 8 then it disappears on frame 11 revealing her in a dropkick position. Frame's 11 to 25 she stays in this position then starts to do a back flip. Frame 26 she readies, 28 she is completely upside down, 30 she is looking directly down, 32 she is now at a 5 o clock angle (facing right) 7 o clock angle (facing left). Frame 34 she is now rising back up to her neutral position. Frame 37 she has her mouth open and still readying to her neutral position showing that her FAF is forgivable in this move.
- What I would change
This move is absolutely beautiful. It's well polished, stays out for a decent amount of time, can be led into from down air, and can wall of pain. My only gripe is the hitbox should start at frame 7 not frame 8. She releases her kick on frame 7.

Frame 7 of fair.
- Down Air
Hitbox Active: 7-8, 10-11, 13-14, 16-17, 19-20, 22-23, 25-26, 28-29, 31,32
FAF: 53
Autocancel: 45>

Jigglypuff frame 1 lowers her feet with her mouth open. She squenches her body up frames 3-6. Frame 7 the hitbox starts and she prepares her first rotation counterclockwise. Frame 11 her feet are spread out and extended. Frame 12 she completes her first rotation. Frame 19 she completes her second rotation. Frame 29 she starts to squench up again and then on frame 31 the final hitbox comes out and she starts spreading her feet on frame 33. She stops spreading her feet and starts smiling at frame 43. Frame 45 she starts lowering her arms then finally on frame 53 is able to act.
- What I would change
This is one of my favorite moves in her arsenal. HOWEVER. It does have its flaws. In brawl it was previously frame 5 and could combo into grab. The autocancel window is kind of painful, especially when the landing lag is 30 frames. To be fair though it was always like that and a better autocancel alone would remedy that . When the kick is clearly done and her feet are spread during said shorthop her feet teleport back to her kicking position and she suffers landing lag. With that being said I'd rather her autocancel window be frame 39 and the move start at frame 6. The last and final problem is how some characters can effortlessely fall out of down air (small + skinny characters like Ness or Pikachu . The move should definitely connect better in some way.
- Up Air
Hitbox Active: 9-21
FAF: 45
Autocancel: 1-3, 35>

Jigglypuff frame 1 opens her mouth and looks to her left or right depending on which way you do the move readying her right arm. Frame 3-8 she pulls her head back in a really weird position with her arm still readying. Frame 9 (sound effect starts frame 8) her arm becomes larger and the hitbox begins. Frame 11 (vanishes on frame 17) a white whiff appears and she waves her arm like Spongebob in the Idiot box episode on frames 9-23 The hitbox disappears on frame 21 which is when her arm starts to get smaller. The end lag is basically just her getting back to her neutral position in the air, she starts smiling on frame 40. Frame 45 she is finally able to act. This endlag is atrocious.
- What I would change
While I understand the balance behind this move they kind of overdid it at the same time. Before this move was only out for 3 frames in melee and brawl yet ended much faster. So to compensate they made the hitbox last longer in this game but increased the endlag too much. In this game the hitbox is out for 12 frames where as another example nair which is out for 24 frames. Nair's FAF is 44, where as up air's FAF is 45 and is only out HALF as long. If anything I'd prefer Up air's FAF to be frame 40. Frame 8 startup would be nice too.
- Back Air
FAF: 40
Autocancel: 1-3, 28>

Jigglypuff is readying her right foot, eyes looking behind her with her mouth open on frame 1. Frame 3-7 she is pulling her foot back powering it up or whatever. She begins to release it frame 8-9. Frame 11 she is about to kick but not quite there yet, her foot on the other side of her body. Frame 12 the hitbox is out and her foot is extended behind her in the rather famous pose she is in made famous by melee when the hitbox first comes out. Frame 15 she is looking directly behind her now. Frame 16-17 the white whiff disappears and she is readying a turn around. Frame 21 her back is facing the screen and she is 3/4s done with her spin. Frame 29 she has finished her spin and she is facing the direction she first did the move, her foot still in the air. Frames 30 to 39 she is readjusting herself back into her neutral position.
- What I would change
This is a very useful kill move and I respect the buff it recieved. I don't necessarily like the startup. The move takes way too long to come out and I personally believe it should just be frame 9 like it was in brawl and melee. I just don't think it's fair how characters like Falco can run around with a frame 4 bair that is only slightly weaker. Yet Jigglypuff who is supposed to be agile in the air posesses this slow aerial.
- Rest
Hitbox Active: 2-4 (Intangible 1-27)
FAF: 230

Jigglypuff's mouth is open and staring out in the distance on frame 1 the flash has not appeared yet. Frame 2 a flash appears next to her right eye and then disappears on frame 8. Frame 27 the intangibility frames and the very first bubble appears. Frame 35 her eyes are closed and she begins sleeping. For the couple of hours she is sleeping (obvious over exaggeration) She FINALLY opens her eyes on frame 186. Frame 205-206 she starts to shake the sleep off. Last bubble dissappears on frame 215. Frame 230 she is able to move.
- What I would change
This. Move. Deserves. Better. Buff the kill percent a tad, maybe by 5? It is about time Jigglypuff gets proper reward from rest. The reward does not match the punishment when you miss the move. Buffing the kill percent alone by that much would make Jigglypuff way better than she is now. Whether it be combos into rest or just landing the move to punish in neutral. Puff also shouldn't die or get punished for killing with rest just because your opponent get's a blast KO off the top.
- Pound
Hitbox Active: 13-28
FAF: 46

Jigglypuff instantly looks to her left her right (depending on where you are facing) and is facing away from the screen on frame 1. Frame 3 she pulls back her arm and a spark appears on frame 2-3 (disappears on frame 4-5). She remains in this pose until frame 10. On frame 11 she is exerting her punch and a pink whiff starts to appear. Frame 13 the pink whiff fully forms, as a white ring appears and her arm becomes massive. Her arm unextends frame 15 and a shine sparkle appears around her arm. It disappears around frame 16-17 and Jigglypuff remains in a pose with her arm outwards until frame 39 which is when she starts smiling and lowering her fist.
- What I would change
I like this move a lot I really do. Although there are only two things I despise about it. 1 being minor another being vital. The minor error is frame 12 not having a hitbox when she is clearly punching her opponent (see image below) So pound should come out on frame 12 rather than frame 13. It's fine as a move and I know I focus a lot on animation but it's misleading and has been frame 12 before. The vital thing. I will never as long as I live, understand why the recovery utility for pound was nerfed. Pound needs that aerial momentum it had before in brawl and melee so she can go deeper offstage for gimps.

Frame 12 of pound. (Notice how there is no hitbox)
This I have on note for later
- Whilst charging rollout Frame 34 is when Rollout becomes strong enough to hit on the ground without walking into Jigglypuff (if you stand there you will get hit)
Frame 34 charge
Frame 47 is when the voice indicator of when she yells JIGGLY! upon being fully charged.
Frame 54 charge = 13% Frame 55 charge = 13% Frame 56 charge = 13% Frame 57 charge = 13% Frame 58 charge = 14% Frame 59 charge = 14% Frame 60 charge = 14% Frame 61 charge = 14% Frame 62 charge = Sound effect cues to signify it's fully charged

Other things I would like changed.
In this area I'll discuss other things I want changed (I AM NOT DONE WITH THE ANALYSIS BUT ITS 90% DONE, IM NOT EXCITED TO DO ROLLOUT AND SING BECAUSE...they are bad moves lol.) This part will overall be very short.
-Air Release
For some odd reason Jigglypuff's air release is different from most of the cast, sending her almost straight up. This gives few characters true kill confirms on Jigglypuff. The most notable of them being Shulk's jump art air slash at 109% center stage on FD. Her air release sparked a huge storm in the Jigglypuff meta discussion. Thankfully Thinkaman debunked 99% of them, however they still exist and that's what upsets me dearly. Wario used to suffer from this problem however he got a patch fix...why not Jigglypuff...? FIX THIS PLEASE
-Air Speed
Top speed: 1.269
Acceleration: 0.08

I know what you're thinking, BUT ARE DEE ARE SEVEN HER AIRSPEED IS ALREADY GOOD! Yes it is good, but when you earn the title of aerial character I expect the following: Best airspeed, better air acceleration, fast aerials, great autocancels, whatever. She only accomplishes great autocancels (WITH THE EXCEPTION OF DAIR) and average aerials in terms of speed which I think should be faster anyway. Her airspeed is second to Yoshi, and has a top 15 air acceleration. I find it a little odd its not better but..lol what can you do? A 0.09 air acceleration would fit her pretty nicely, this would help her a little but not too much. Don't get me wrong 0.08 is good, but when we are talking about Jigglypuff she would need to get to that speed faster in the air so she can drift in and punish easier.
-Air dodge
Intangible: 4-29
FAF: 35

Mixed with her jumps and mobility Jigglypuff's airdodge can be utilized very well. This does not excuse the obscene frame data it has. Jigglypuff is a character who should be able to escape combos (which she is good at) HOWEVER in situations where she would need to air dodge she gets one of the worst ends of the stick. Her airdodge is also shared with King Dedede, Donkey Kong, and Bowser.. These are the game's heaviest characters who can take a load of hits and punishment. Jigglypuff on the other hand is the lightest character in the game thus makes this frame data not only give me the worst headache, but it is incredibly inexcusable. The airdodge I would prefer having is Wii Fit's 2-26, FAF 32. Not the best but anything but the worst please.
Change List Summary.
Just in case you don't feel like reading the enormous wall of text above here is a list of changes I want for Jigglypuff. Suggestions are welcome. Please nothing too ludicrous.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Jab 1 FAF (17 -> 16)
Jab 1 given the ability to jab reset
Jab 2 FAF (20 -> 17)
Forward Tilt FAF (28 -> 26)
Forward Tilt startup (7 -> 6)
Down Tilt FAF (31 -> 27)
Down Tilt damage (10 -> 9)
Down Tilt startup (10 -> 8)*
Up Tilt startup (9 -> 7)
Up Tilt hitbox increased to reach further behind.
Up Tilt damage decreased (9 -> 8)*
Forward Smash startup (16 -> 12)
Up Smash startup (16 -> 11)
Up Smash knockback growth (105 -> 112)
Up Smash hitbox increased to reach further behind.
Down Smash startup (14 -> 11)

Down Smash FAF (49 -> 46)
Down Smash knockback growth (69 -> 79)
Down Smash damage (11 -> 12)
Down Smash hitboxes increased on each side slightly.
Forward Air startup (8 -> 7)
Down Air startup (7 -> 5)
Down Air autocancel (45 -> 40)
Down Air landing lag (30 -> 22)*
Up air startup (9 -> 8)
Up air FAF (45 -> 42)*
Up air landing lag (15 -> 13)**
Back air startup (12 -> 9)
Rest kill 5 percent earlier.
Pound startup (13 -> 12)
Pound momentum increased allowing it to be the tool for recovering it was before.
Make air release angle like your average character. Like
Mario's?
Air
Acceleration (0.08 -> 0.09)
Air Speed (1.269 -> 1.31)
Air Dodge intangibility (4-29 -> 2-26)
Air Dodge FAF (35 -> 32)
Jump Squat (6 -> 5)*
Rollout charge time halved.

Once I find a way to inject some hacks, I'll test these buffs for balance reasons. I'll make a few nerfs or maybe buffs to the changes I have layed here.



I've done some touch ups on this recently and some rewords but not to the whole thing.
Changes I've made today 1/7/2017
-Rollout charge time buff at the bottom.
-Some rest tweaks
-Down air tweaks
-Dash attack tweaks
-Random rewords throughout the analysis
I am alive just not active.
 
Last edited:

drakeirving

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
387
Location
Winnipeg, Canada
#4
Uptilt is incorrect (or at least worded very poorly); the first hitbox is still there frame 10 and the late hit still hits frames 11-13. The inactive 10 frames before FAF correspond to the animation.

I would also disagree a bit with knockback nerfs, as it's already a very useful kill tool at the 110% range. It could fundamentally be used as a combo tool as well if its BKB were lowered further and its KBG increased further to make up for it, but it's quite powerful already to threaten, bait, and pressure shields, which is something I really think she misses otherwise.

I think the interaction between her uptilt and upsmash is a bit weird because uptilt's relative speed makes it useful, but its kill power feels more like a weak upsmash, and its hitbox behind is more like your suggestion for upsmash. Meanwhile upsmash itself is kind of lonely. If upsmash obtained uptilt's properties and uptilt turned into strictly a combo tool that would be pretty decent.
 
Last edited:

RDR7

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Messages
62
#5
Uptilt is incorrect (or at least worded very poorly); the first hitbox is still there frame 10 and the late hit still hits frames 11-13. The inactive 10 frames before FAF correspond to the animation.

I would also disagree a bit with knockback nerfs, as it's already a very useful kill tool at the 110% range. It could fundamentally be used as a combo tool as well if its BKB were lowered further and its KBG increased further to make up for it, but it's quite powerful already to threaten, bait, and pressure shields, which is something I really think she misses otherwise.

I think the interaction between her uptilt and upsmash is a bit weird because uptilt's relative speed makes it useful, but its kill power feels more like a weak upsmash, and its hitbox behind is more like your suggestion for upsmash. Meanwhile upsmash itself is kind of lonely. If upsmash obtained uptilt's properties and uptilt turned into strictly a combo tool that would be pretty decent.
Might have to get on Kurogane hammer about uptilt then, that is where I got the info from. I felt a little weird during the lab with it because I know I've gotten late hits with uptilt before but resisted questioning it.

As for the talk about uptilt and upsmash I agree to a certain extent. For knockback I'd rather have uptilt be more of a follow up/combo starter rather than a kill move. Considering in my eyes that is what uptilt is designed for. As for upsmash it still has the terribad hitbox highly covering the top of Jigglypuff but hardly behind her which I think is silly. Upsmash needs less startup, more knockback, and a better hitbox to make it more rewarding.
 
Last edited:

me quazzy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
64
Location
West Virginia
3DS FC
3797-9401-0113
#6
I've been saying this forever but I frames on up smash would make it immensely better considering over 50% of the cast have I frames on their up smash.
Other than that, I agree with just about everything here. Now let's do what ZeRo did and call Nintendo about Puff and get her buffed lol
 

RDR7

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Messages
62
#8
I've been saying this forever but I frames on up smash would make it immensely better considering over 50% of the cast have I frames on their up smash.
Other than that, I agree with just about everything here. Now let's do what ZeRo did and call Nintendo about Puff and get her buffed lol
It says Utilt (Late) on KH too dorklord <3
I don't remember seeing that. Must be smoking dope or something. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Last edited:

drakeirving

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
387
Location
Winnipeg, Canada
#10
It "needs" a boost in the sense that it's garbage but not so much in the sense that it's a fundamentally needed buff. Personally I think it would be more useful for the character to change her dashing frames and dumb dash teeter animation so she can properly turn around and space on the ground.
 
Last edited:

RDR7

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Messages
62
#11
do you think jiggs run speed needs a boost?
I guess so. It's something she needs to be bad at tho. I'd rather her have an airspeed boost if anything. While her airspeed is already good it HAS been better and a slight buff would help a lot with chaining aerials and weaving in and out.
 

SkippyJ

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 19, 2015
Messages
95
Location
Minnesota
#13
So glad you mentioned that utilt needs a bigger hit box! I couldnt agree more, in fact, id say its one of our most needed changes. I love utilt as a move as is, with it leading to rest very early while still being a (very important, imo) late game kill option, but the fact that you have to be virtually right on top of your opponent to hit makes it unreasonably difficult to land, greatly subtracting from the utility of an otherwise great move.

Also, the fact that we dont have the best airspeed in the game is a problem to me. Give me air speed and a utilt range buff and i will be happy xP i mean, yoshi runs laps around us in the air, and he already has a great projectile, and buttons that in a lot of ways are essentially just ours but better in every way (neutral air, egg roll, down tilt, jab).
 
Last edited:

Born 2 SD

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Messages
1
#14
Great stuff so far. Hope to see specials, aerialsand grabs covered soon. Melee F-throw PLS RETURN! Personally I feel down-throw should have some combo follow-ups too.
There's just so much room for changes, that could just be inspired by melee Puff. Like aerials being strung togheter better. Comboing into rest, you name it.
IT'd be the DREAM if Sing were to get some kind of buff, making it at least slightly usefull, less startup and leg as well as an greatly increased hitbox maybe? Just throwing out some ideas.
 

RDR7

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Messages
62
#16
Great stuff so far. Hope to see specials, aerialsand grabs covered soon. Melee F-throw PLS RETURN! Personally I feel down-throw should have some combo follow-ups too.
There's just so much room for changes, that could just be inspired by melee Puff. Like aerials being strung togheter better. Comboing into rest, you name it.
IT'd be the DREAM if Sing were to get some kind of buff, making it at least slightly usefull, less startup and leg as well as an greatly increased hitbox maybe? Just throwing out some ideas.
Yeah I'm getting back to it now. Just finished off the heat from tiger smash. Giving puff some rep by getting 7th in singles escaping pools and showing off this nasty setup. http://oddshot.tv/shot/clashkingstudios-2016032812243952
 

Poopencio

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
Messages
11
Location
Tijuana
#18
Big ol' thanks to Masonomace to inspiring me with his Shulk frame analysis thread, professionally pointing out problems and ways to fix said problems to his character. My answer is simple but it's a LONG simple answer. Jigglypuff has been nerfed from she used to be and the characters around her have gotten stronger making her seem a lot more frail. Yet she hasn't been touched or bothered to be balanced as a whole. I'll discuss her moves, but I'll add how I'll improve them: frame by frame, any sort of knockback change, FAF, and add a frame analysis to each move.
- Keep in mind.
When I list something in red I'm stating something I'd like to see change for the better or when I'm covering something that I'm not very happy with.
When I list something in green I'm stating something I'm already happy with and I don't recommend change.
When I list something in yellow its to just take note be like "Hey! Notice this!"
When I list something in white it's just general describing or normal discussion.

What I know during my analysis.
-How Jigglypuff does her moves is dependent on the direction she is facing. Whether she will use her right arm or left arm for jab 1 and 2 or use her left or right foot for all of her tilts depending on the direction.
Jigglypuff's Moveset.
- Jab 1
Hitbox active: 5-6
FAF:17

Jigglypuff pulls her body back on frame 1, and prepares a slap with her right arm (facing left) or left arm (facing right). She then instantly punches forward whilst standing on one foot and her mouth open. During this her arm is drastically larger than in her neutral position and a white whiff appears on her arm at around frame 6. Her arm then shrinks back to normal size and the white whiff starts to vanish at frame 10. She smiles at frame 14 and for the last few frames she is returning to -her neutral position. As soon as her arms return to their neutral position this is when she can act on frame 17.
- What I would change
This move is great. I can't think of many ways to improve it besides making the FAF sooner to 16.
- Jab 2
Hitbox active: 5-6
FAF:20

Jigglypuff readys her right arm (facing right) or left arm (facing left) and stands in a fashion similar to that of pound. She then on frame 3 begins to swing for a punch, leaning her body forward a lot more than jab 1. The white whiff appears more appropriately here than in jab 1 as it instantly appears on cue (frame 5). The white whiff disappears at frame 10. She then retracts her arms, her curl waves a little, and she begins returning to her neutral position at frame 16. She then finally begins standing in said position at frame 20.
- What I would change
She is unable to act for 2 frames while being in a reasonable position but not in her neutral position. I personally think this endlag is overall unecessary specifically frames 17 and 18. Jab 2 should have the same FAF as Jab 1 if anything. But can we give a round of applause for this hitbox!?

- Forward Tilt
Hitbox active: 7-10
FAF:28
Jigglypuff pulls her right foot (facing left) or left foot (facing right) pack and prepares for a spinning kick on frame 1. Her foot gets drastically bigger as the hitbox is active (7-10). She then spins right (facing right) or left (facing left) from frame 12 to 22. Then after preforming a single rotation then both of her feet touch the ground and her ears lower (cute but this cooldown ruins a lot of this move's potential). She then returns to her neutral position and is able to act at frame 28.
- What I would change
The cool down I discussed plus returning to her neutral position is the endlag of this move. I personally think she should have FAF at frame 26 or 27 rather than 28 because she is clearly done with the move during those frames and to improve it's utility making it safer on shield.
- Down Tilt
Hitbox active: 10-12
FAF:31

Jigglypuff pulls her foot back like forward tilt on frame 1 and 2. For frame 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7, her foot is still behind her. She then crosses her foot to the median of her body at frame 8 and 9. Then finally delivers a downwards kick. A white whiff appears at around frame 12 and her right foot (facing left) or left foot (facing right) extends then she begins to retract her foot back. At frame 16 the white whiff dissappears. For the next 15 frames Jigglypuff is spending her time putting her foot back into place then finally returns to her neutral position able to act at a terrible frame 31.
- What I would change
Personally I believe the FAF isn't the worst part of this move however it can be reduced by 3 or 4 frames. The even worse part is the time it takes for Jigglypuff to start this move is absolutely horrific for a move that is not going to kill until 140 at the edge. While the damage is decent I would take this move doing 9 damage and starting up at frame 5 or 6. Rather than it's current state being only used for rare mixups.
- Up Tilt
Hitbox active: 9-10, 11-13 (Late)
FAF:24

Jigglypuff stands on the tips of her little feet raising her arms and looking up frame 1. She then on frame 2-5 pulls the foot she is about to kick with forward then on to frame 6,7, and 8 pulls it back. On frame 9 the move starts and the hitbox ends suddenely on frame 10. She then uses her arms and other foot to balance herself on frame 10-14 (adorable) whilst lowering her foot on frame 13. The rest of the move she is lowering her foot back to the ground for a good 10 frames. Then when her mouth closes and she is smiling this when the move is over and can act on frame 24. This move overall is okay. Kind of unnecessary startup however, which can be reduced by 3 frames. The FAF is great! Resulting in this move being VERY hard to punish on shield.
- What I would change
It's also nifty that the move kills at 120-140 however...I believe uptilt should start about say...2 frames sooner. (frame 7). I would very much welcome if the move did less knockback and allow for follow ups. The move is in a median of not enough knockback and too much to the point where it CAN be useful just in strict circumstances. And I personally think Jigglypuff should have the melee hitbox or have it stretch behind her further. While it is rather ridiculous Jigglypuff is a character that needs bigger hitboxes than she has now. Also a big thanks to Furil for making the second image possible so early. *clap clap*
Melee

Sm4sh

- Dash Attack
Hitbox active: 5-19, 10-20 (Late)
FAF:40

Jigglypuff on frame 1 is in a very very similar animation as dash but is looking towards the direction she is about to dash attack. Onto Frame 3 her eyes show an angry gesture and a white trail of wind appears behind her as she is ready to be airborne. Frame 5 the hitbox is out and she is facing the ground airborne with her feet lower to the ground. Frame 5-19 is how long she is airborne then touches the ground at frame 20 landing on her head. Frame 20 to 30 she is picking herself up and is magically bouncing herself back up to her feet from frame 30 to 40 and is now on her feet at frame 39. She is able to act very early. 5 frames earlier in fact. It is a reasonable position for FAF and is respectable.
- What I would change

This move overall is almost perfect. The only downfall is its not safe on hit until low mid percents. It's in my opinion her best ground move, possessing trample and staying active for 15 frames. Very well polished. Also keep in mind these images of the moves are different from the actual game. The aesthetics are different. I.E Jigglypuff's eyes not showing an angry gesture.

- Forward Smash
Hitbox active: 16-19, 20-24 (Late)
FAF: 50

Jigglypuff on frame 1 is readying her left foot (facing right) or right foot (facing left) looking towards the direction she is about to kick. Then on frame 3 is readying for a kick but SIKE! On frame 5 for some reason she retracts her foot back into neutral position THEN from frame's 7 to 11 is about to lunge THEN ready the kick. Frames 12 to 15 she is lunging and her foot begins to stick out on frame 16. Frame 27 is when she begins to start lowering her foot. She squishes up still with the angry gesture at frames 35 to 41. Then she readjusts herself for the last 9 frames and finally finishes the move at frame 50.
-What I would change
The first 3 or 4 frames of this move are unnecessary. It looks like Jigglypuff forgets what she is doing, then tries for the kick a second time upon remembering. It's silly and those 3 frames can be chopped. It seems like a silly excuse to make the move slower. Here are some image examples. (NOTICE THE FIRST FEW FRAMES)

This is not present in melee, it started in brawl. The only ingame example I could find was dapuffster's hitbox video. https://youtu.be/lBYx_Ld3lUM?t=1m24s (Time stamped put it in 0.5 speed and it is visible.)
Here is the melee example and honestly, this is how it SHOULD have stayed.


As a whole however the hitboxes follow the animation fine and she has reasonable FAF.
- Up Smash
Hitbox active: 16-19
FAF: 46

Jigglypuff opens her mouth and is in a similar stance as her neutral position on frame 1. She then begins lifting her arms up to her head on frames 3-7. On frame 9 she puts her arms back down and a spark appears above her head. Frame 11-13 she pulls her body back then on frame 14 she shows an angry gesture. Frame 16 the hitbox starts up and Jigglypuff's head gets bigger. Frame 18 her head becomes massive as a purple and green whiff appears. Frame 20 the hitbox ends and thus starts the cooldown. Frame 22-45 she reamains in cool down with her head pulled forward making an angry gesture. Might I say the FAF is VERY GENEROUS on this move. Jigglypuff can act out 8 frames quicker than melee.
- What I would change
The downside is the startup and knockback being a little too slow. I'd knock it down from 16 to 11 frames. I'd also add some knockback ( +15 KBG ) to make this move more volatile. The inner part of the hitbox is incredibly strong, however it's not very big and harder to earn in neutral than rest. The hitbox itself in this game isn't very great. As opposed to melee. It should cover more distance behind her.
The first two images below is the comparison of the melee and sm4sh hitboxes.
Melee (Notice the large hitbox behind her)
Sm4sh (notice this is not the same frame. The hitbox stays the same throughout the move and does not extend as opposed to melee.)

If I were to add a hitbox I would lay it around here. Basically extend it more behind her just not as high as the rectangle has it.


- Down Smash
Hitbox active: 14-15
FAF: 49

Jigglypuff opens her mouth and begins to face the screen on frame 1. Frame 3 her arms are rising and she is standing on the tips of her feet. Frame 5 she stops suddenly and faces right or left depending on the direction in a similar stance to that of her neutral stance. Frame 7 she then rises up a little and stops rising on frame 9. She begins to lower her body on frame 11 to frame 13. Frame 14-15 the hitbox is out and her feet start to extend with a green and purple whiff and two sound wavish circles appearing on each side. The whiffs disappear frame 19, followed by smoke and two sparkles on each side of her body. The smoke vanishes on frame 31 and she is still facing the screen. On frame 35 she starts smiling then begins to rotate lifting her right foot. The move has FAF as soon as she is facing left ways at an 11 o clock angle (facing left) or right ways at an 1 o clock angle on frame 49.
- What I would change
I don't like this move almost entirely as a whole. It's absolutely terrible. The hitboxes, the startup, knockback, and the damage. The only forgiving thing about this move is the FAF, which isn't superior to upsmash nor is it as rewarding as upsmash or forward smash. I would tweak the startup to frame 11 making the move's FAF be 46, boost the kbg to 80 to boost its already terrible KO power, and buff the damage by 1. As for the hitboxes.
Melee
Sm4sh
Notice the extreeeeme difference. I know I know I'm just spurting out melee melee melee. Puff is just a character that needs bigger hitboxes than she already possesses. As of now they are too small and with how slow these moves are and their reward and range...doesn't add up.
My improvement
Laying hitboxes around here near the squares will not only improve the range, but with the improvements I would add as stated before would make this move safer in neutral and more rewarding rather than just being in your moveset collecting dust.

- Neutral Air
Hitbox Active: 6-7, 8-30 (LATE LOL I LOVE THIS HITBOX)

FAF: 44
Autocancel: 1-3, 40>

Jigglypuff on frame 1 opens her moth and has her feet ready. Frame 3 to 5 she readys her foot . Frame 5 the white whiff appears early and her left foot (facing right) right foot (facing left) extends. Frame 7 her foot immediately gets smaller and back to normal size. From frames 9 to 30 she has her arms in the air and feet in a sort of judo kick pose. Frame 31 she starts to retract her feet and for the rest of the move she is pulling back her feet and on frame 44 the move ends returning to her aerial neutral position.
- What I would change
This move is absolutely brilliant. Staying out for 24 frames, can kill, does 11 damage (6 sourspotted) which is great for an aerial like this. It's a great get off me move, can be followed up from dair, fair, and uptilt. But I have 1 gripe. It has always been frame 6 however in a game like this where characters are more volatile in the air. Jigglypuff's nair should be frame 3 competing with that of Yoshi and Mario's. I'm almost tempted to say frame 2. Jigglypuff is supposed to be THE aerial character and she is getting swatted away from characters she should be able to combo IN THE AIR.
- Forward Air
Hitbox Active: 8-9, 10-20 (Late)
FAF: 37
Autocancel: 1-3, 28>

Jigglypuff on frame 1 has her feet readying but not pulled back yet. Frame 3 she pulls her feet back and has them pulled back up to frame 6. Frame 7 she releases as a black spark starts behind her indicating the white whiff is appearing but there is no hitbox. Frame 8 she releases and starts the kick. Her feet are completely covered by the white whiff frame 8 then it disappears on frame 11 revealing her in a dropkick position. Frame's 11 to 25 she stays in this position then starts to do a back flip. Frame 26 she readies, 28 she is completely upside down, 30 she is looking directly down, 32 she is now at a 5 o clock angle (facing right) 7 o clock angle (facing left). Frame 34 she is now rising back up to her neutral position. Frame 37 she has her mouth open and still readying to her neutral position showing that her FAF is forgivable in this move.
- What I would change
This move is absolutely beautiful. It's well polished, stays out for a decent amount of time, can be led into in several ways, and can wall of pain. My only gripe is the hitbox should start at frame 7 not frame 8. She releases her kick on frame 7.

Frame 7 of fair.

- Down Air
Hitbox Active: 7-8, 10-11, 13-14, 16-17, 19-20, 22-23, 25-26, 28-29, 31,32
FAF: 53
Autocancel: 45>

Jigglypuff frame 1 lowers her feet with her mouth open. She squenches her body up frames 3-6. Frame 7 the hitbox starts and she prepares her first rotation counterclockwise. Frame 11 her feet are spread out and extended. Frame 12 she completes her first rotation. Frame 19 she completes her second rotation. Frame 29 she starts to squench up again and then on frame 31 the final hitbox comes out and she starts spreading her feet on frame 33. She stops spreading her feet and starts smiling at frame 43. Frame 45 she starts lowering her arms then finally on frame 53 is able to act.
- What I would change
This is one of my favorite moves in her arsenal. HOWEVER. This move pisses me off in a lot of ways. One it was previously frame 5 and could combo into just about as much moves as it could now. The autocancel window is absolutely trash. It is the only aerial she cannot autocancel from a shorthop and not only that she suffers 30 FRAMES of landing lag. When the kick is clearly done and her feet are spread during said shorthop her feet teleport back to her kicking position and she suffers landing lag. With that being said I'd rather her autocancel window be frame 39 and the move start at frame 5.
- Up Air
Hitbox Active: 9-21
FAF:45
Autocancel: 1-3, 35>

Jigglypuff frame 1 opens her mouth and looks to her left or right depending on which way you do the move readying her right arm. Frame 3-8 she pulls her head back in a really weird position with her arm still readying. Frame 9 (sound effect starts frame 8) her arm becomes larger and the hitbox begins. Frame 11 (vanishes on frame 17) a white whiff appears and she waves her arm like Spongebob in the Idiot box episode on frames 9-23 The hitbox disappears on frame 21 which is when her arm starts to get smaller. The end lag is basically just her getting back to her neutral position in the air, she starts smiling on frame 40. This endlag is atrocious.
-What I would change
While I understand the balance behind this move. Before this move was only out for 3 frames in melee and brawl yet ended much faster. In this game the hitbox is out for 12 frames where as another example nair which is out for 24 frames. Nair's FAF is 44, where as up air's FAF is 45 and is only out HALF as long. If anything I'd prefer Up air's FAF to be when she starts smiling (Frame 40). Frame 8 startup would be nice too.
- Rest
Hitbox Active: 2-4 (Intangible 1-27)
FAF: 230

Jigglypuff's mouth is open and staring out in the distance on frame 1 the flash has not appeared yet. Frame 2 a flash appears next to her right eye and then disappears on frame 8. Frame 27 the intangibility frames and the very first bubble appears. Frame 35 her eyes are closed and she begins sleeping. For the couple of hours she is sleeping (obvious over exaggeration) She FINALLY opens her eyes on frame 186. Frame 205-206 she starts to shake the sleep off. Last bubble dissappears on frame 215. Frame 230 she is able to move.
- What I would change
This. Move. Deserves. Better. I cannot stress this enough. Buff the kill percent by 15 percent. It is about time Jigglypuff gets proper reward from rest. The reward does not match the punishment when you miss the move. Buffing the kill percent alone by that much would make Jigglypuff way better than she is now. Whether it be combos into rest or just landing the move to punish in neutral.

This I have on note for later
- Whilst charging rollout Frame 34 is when Rollout becomes strong enough to hit on the ground without walking into Jigglypuff (if you stand there you will get hit)
Frame 34 charge
Frame 47 is when the voice indicator of when she yells JIGGLY! upon being fully charged.
Frame 54 charge = 13% Frame 55 charge = 13% Frame 56 charge = 13% Frame 57 charge = 13% Frame 58 charge = 14% Frame 59 charge = 14% Frame 60 charge = 14% Frame 61 charge = 14% Frame 62 charge = Sound effect cues to signify it's fully charged


This is on it's way to being done.
I think the thing the needs the most is a better throw game, like a combo throw or making upthrow a kill option
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
72
#20
they need to fix the up smash hitbox it just never hits its like removed part of the move
 
Last edited:

RDR7

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Messages
62
#21
I think the thing the needs the most is a better throw game, like a combo throw or making upthrow a kill option
Keep in mind I'm not done with this but I'll keep your post in mind. I'm doing all of this is in a certain order.
 

FunAtParties

PM me ur character ideas girl
Joined
May 21, 2015
Messages
3,859
Location
Illinois
NNID
ZestyÑ
Switch FC
SW-8404-4905-2993
#24
I would've really liked to see how Brawl Puff (with an improved Rest of course) would do in this game. Feel like she'd be mid tier at least.

Anyway I like this post, I like this post a lot. I still want most of her aerials back from Brawl, as well as her Pound and Rollout. I think a good way to improve Utilt is faster start-up (as you mentioned) while decreasing the BKB but increasing the KBG. SO it's better for comboing at low percents, and about the same to seal of stocks at higher percents. As for Rest, I think it needs some serious buffs. I just want Melee rest back, not much to add to that really.
Sing I think needs some major tweaks. I don't think the opponent should be able to mash out of it, or that it you can shield against it. It needs some kind of benefit other than ledge stalling, which isn't really a good choice anymore.

Like I said great post, I'd love to play this Puff.
 

RDR7

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Messages
62
#25
I would've really liked to see how Brawl Puff (with an improved Rest of course) would do in this game. Feel like she'd be mid tier at least.

Anyway I like this post, I like this post a lot. I still want most of her aerials back from Brawl, as well as her Pound and Rollout. I think a good way to improve Utilt is faster start-up (as you mentioned) while decreasing the BKB but increasing the KBG. SO it's better for comboing at low percents, and about the same to seal of stocks at higher percents. As for Rest, I think it needs some serious buffs. I just want Melee rest back, not much to add to that really.
Sing I think needs some major tweaks. I don't think the opponent should be able to mash out of it, or that it you can shield against it. It needs some kind of benefit other than ledge stalling, which isn't really a good choice anymore.

Like I said great post, I'd love to play this Puff.
Glad you are pleased. I'll work on sing last considering I need to think a good bit about what to do with it. My input on it so far is that sing shouldn't be too good of a move but I think it deserves at least 1 decent tweak to it. That I'll think about.

i want a buff to rollout it was a beast in melee
Rollout in itself has always been a bad move. The reward however was always great for hitting it. It reminded me of falcon punch but a safer. Now its kinda....too weak lol. What made melee's reward so high was it hit so hard and sent at a really wacky angle.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
21
Location
Sinnoh
#26
I think most of these buffs don't change what's basically wrong about Jiggs - none of her moves have range. Every single move she has besides pound (which is the only reason it's ever used) doesn't extend beyond a small bubble around Jiggs. While having frame data would be nice, I think I'd be more nice to get all her hit boxes a lot bigger so that she can put on any sort of shield pressure. With this she could space aerials on sheild, which would make all the difference in neutral
 

drakeirving

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
387
Location
Winnipeg, Canada
#27
Increasing her max aerial speed, even if not back to Melee's 1.35, would serve a lot of the same purpose, as the weaving ability would cover most of the (aerial) pressure game. For sure though, larger and more disjointed hitboxes would go a long way in many areas, whether be beating out other moves, threatening larger spaces, combo potential, etc.
 
Last edited:

RDR7

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Messages
62
#28
I think most of these buffs don't change what's basically wrong about Jiggs - none of her moves have range. Every single move she has besides pound (which is the only reason it's ever used) doesn't extend beyond a small bubble around Jiggs. While having frame data would be nice, I think I'd be more nice to get all her hit boxes a lot bigger so that she can put on any sort of shield pressure. With this she could space aerials on sheild, which would make all the difference in neutral
Jigglypuff's main problem isn't range. While it would be nice and I know that her range is bad, but I don't think that's what she would need to be viable. She needs a deadlier combo game. Better FAF, faster startup on aerials, rest to be stronger and melee air mobility. Most of the buffs I have listed so far would make her pretty solid and she would posses that deadly combo game she has had before. Range has also always been a staple weakness to the character. Even on the topic of range I have discussed increasing the size of her hitboxes to help a little with that problem. I appreciate your suggestion though.
 
Last edited:

Stickmanlolz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 5, 2015
Messages
244
Location
A piece of paper in Ohio
NNID
lolaldenlee
Switch FC
SW-1694-6309-5598
#38
your jake picture is awesome but i can't land bair with almost all characters for no reason i use fair for jiggs way more then bair
While that is good for keeping the b-air fresh, the fact that you are unable to land the b-air in the first place nullifies that point practice your RAR and look closely at the timing for when the b-air comes out. Not every character can be WoP so easily.
 

pikazz

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
1,868
Location
Sweden, Umeå (Currently in Seattle)
NNID
pikamaxi
#39
the OP sounds pretty good on what to buff.

but something I would love to be buffed is her ability to win trades on attacks.
her attacks has Zero priorities, especially aerials meaning that if both opponent will attack eachother, she will mostly trade but will often lose in % dealing.

so my nr1 buffs would be giving her "Defensive Hitbox" on her attacks.
do those who want example of what I mean, her Dash Attack has an Defensive Hitbox, meaning she can run and dash attack an projectile without taking damage and remove the projectile. (Marios/Luigis UpSmash has it on their Heads, Bowsers on his Jab and Fair, Sheik has it on her arm on Fair but a small one)

many are calling this for Disjoint by another name

Top Priority moves to add this to:
Fair. having 2 Defensive hitboxes on both legs would give her an better approach in air as it can cancel out projectiles and win trades (except when opponent hits jigglypuff Body), making an excellent use for both approaches and edgeguarding as she will most likely win the trades. it will also look alike to Melee as it will look like Disjoint

Bair. having one defensive Hitbox when the attack Hitbox is active would be supernice. meaning she will most likely win the trade when she does the attack.

Minor, not necessary but would be a nice addition:
UpSmash: Defensive Hitbox on the Back Head (like Mario/Luigi)
ForwardSmash: Defensive Hitbox on the leg when hitbox is active
DownSmash: Both Legs when attacking
NAir: only on the first frames of the Hitbox. on the lingering weaker hitbox would not have defensive Hitbox
 

Stickmanlolz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 5, 2015
Messages
244
Location
A piece of paper in Ohio
NNID
lolaldenlee
Switch FC
SW-1694-6309-5598
#40
Have you ever played a mod called Brawl -? It has some neat ideas that we could perhaps use for buffs:
Here are a few examples: While charging d-smash there is a small vacuum effect pulling opponents in(can be escaped by jumping or shielding/rolling)
d-tilt slides her slightly forward, Rollout charges more quickly and(if missed) can be cancelled into a pivot grab, Sing reaches much farther just like in the show. These all improve on her offensive abilities and overall fun to play as and against which is what Nintendo wants in the end.
btw what about adding jab being able to jab-lock again to the list of buffs:awesome:?
 
Top