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How good do you think mewtwo will get?
- Thread starter Koga_
- Start date
AstraEDM
Smash Ace
Seeing as both KDJ and M2K are now playing him, I expect to see m2 being pushed pretty damn far. We already know he's an amazing spacie killer, so we know he'll perform pretty well in tournaments already. Excited to see the new technology that people come up with, he seems to have so much untapped potential for movement and mixups.
MetaKnight0
Smash Lord
top 5 character
Xenozoa425
Smash Ace
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Nowhere as good as RBY Mewtwo, but still pretty damn good.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Top 3 character- behind Lucas alone, and maybe Mario or something else silly, but probably not.
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OH SNAP! Top 3?! i cant wait to see his metagame develop now
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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If you had to look at a tier list set-up, I would not say much more beyond high-mid range. He is still kind of janky in my opinion. But, when I say this remember that lots of other characters improved. In melee, anything below like top 6 is not really national winning level. Anything below top 10 is pretty much not super tournament viable. I think with P:M there will be some unviable characters, but much fewer than melee had. So, like in high-mid I just think others would perform better, but he still has the stuff to win tournaments.
CeLL
Smash Lord
Given that with his teleport you could theoretically combo people well past 100%, there is a lot of potential. I haven't tried figuring out combos really yet, but I'm guessing there is some potential with hover cancelled fair -> teleport -> followup, but I haven't tried it at all (because waveshine combos are of higher priority to learn to me). His fair could end up being like Falco's shine, if this works. Also at higher percents perhaps utilt -> teleport -> followup, but again I haven't tried this.
On top of great combo ability, he has no trouble killing, great range, and fast attacks.
On top of great combo ability, he has no trouble killing, great range, and fast attacks.
AstraEDM
Smash Ace
Hell yeah. Defensively, you can add to this the fact that he's basically unable to be gimped and can recover from basically anywhere, has a literally invincible ledge stall, and his weight+tele makes him hard to juggle.
AstraEDM
Smash Ace
true, though that mostly happens when you get hit out of hover/djcing or something
That is also true, I play some Yoshi, so I've gotten used to being smart with my dj lol
CeLL
Smash Lord
According to his frame data, Mewtwo can perform an aerial after a hover cancelled fair (that hits the opponent) after 33 frames, including the teleport.
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Mewtwo is definitely up on the list. Our recent local got swept by him, easily. Not to deny the player credit, but he didn't really even try. As a Mario main, I was really sad to see my every approach stuffed, and I couldn't even force an approach with pills because of confusion (Is this the pain people suffer from the cape???).
CeLL
Smash Lord
People actually use it as a reflector? It's so laggy. I just powershield, except on large projectiles like Lucario's giant aura sphere thing.
ThreeSided
Smash Ace
Mewtwo too good. The tail may have a hurtbox, but if you land one hit on many characters at low-ish percents, you can hit them with up to 5 and just carry them off the stage. It's so silly. Pisses people far more skilled than myself off to no end. The damn thing is so fast that it beats most potential opposing moves just by the shear fact that it hits the opponent before the hitbox of their move can even challenge the extended hurtbox. The tail easily makes him one of the easiest character to gimp with in the game imo, though I don't have experience with all of the cast so I could easily be wrong.
It's a lot easier than power shielding, plus it has wind both in front and behind m2, so that can also be quite annoying. Especially to those who are fairly unfamiliar to the matchup, like myself.
CeLL
Smash Lord
Easier maybe, but more effective, no.It's a lot easier than power shielding, plus it has wind both in front and behind m2, so that can also be quite annoying. Especially to those who are fairly unfamiliar to the matchup, like myself.
Fair enough, but it seemed to work just fine. Guy swept the tournament. Only two games taken off of him were by a DK so it's pretty safe to say he had no problem with projectiles.
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At Bar Wars 2 yesterday I got 5th place out of 96, losing to Hax's Fox in winners (game 3 last stock) and Junebug's Diddy in loses (also game 3 - I think Mewtwo counters Diddy). I 2-0'd Mango's Falco (he rage-quit on game 2) and 2-1'd Chu's Kirby (super close set... last stock last hit on game 3). Mewtwo is good.
Were any of these matches recorded? I'd like to see them.
Sorry, not a single one of my games were on stream....
MetaKnight0
Smash Lord
the mango nation will not believe you now
Shadow Huan
Smash Champion
Mewtwo will likely end up in the top 5-15 range. top 10 but not top 5 is being generous but realistic. once people figure out how to punish his new stuff and exploit his weaknesses there will be less people saying he's top 3 or 5 lol
but he's substantially better than Melee Mewtwo
but he's substantially better than Melee Mewtwo
Radical Larry
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I would have to say Mewtwo would end up as a Top 5, with this order: Fox, Falco, Link, Mewtwo and Wolf.
CeLL
Smash Lord
Am I the only one who doesn't think Link is that good?
Radical Larry
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Well, there's others, but Link has proven his worthiness in Project M within tournaments, just like Mewtwo does.
You know, they should put in the alternate costumes in Project M as emotes here.
CeLL
Smash Lord
Hover-cancelled fair -> teleport -> aerial
Confirmed combo at mid percentages, of course character-dependent. I'm not sure if there's really a point in doing it over just jumping instead of teleporting. Though I'd imagine you could get some followups pretty awkward distances off the hover-cancelled fair with DJC teleport. So long as you can get the angle of the teleport right. And by that I mean you could probably get a followup fair off of a HC'd fair as long as they don't die. (except on Dreamland)
Thinking about it, you could probably get the weirdest combos with DJC teleport. RAR HC'd bair -> DJC teleport infinite anyone? I can't RAR hover-cancel consistently yet, though. I want this to be a thing lol. It would win silliest infinite hands down. Fast fallers could probably tech out of it, though
Does anyone know if you can get a guaranteed grab on some characters after a HC'd dair on shield? It has a +5 frame advantage, Mewtwo's grab comes out on frame 7, and most (all?) spotdodges come out on frame 2.
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Une
Smash Apprentice
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Hopefully Mewtwo players get really good with him so that he gets smashed goddamn hard with the nerf bat. God I'll be so happy when that happens. Piece of garbage character. I swear M2K must have been the guy in charge of Mewtwo.
I wouldn't be surprised. It's Mewtwo. I think the real question is why use Dair. You're Mewtwo. Just mash hover Nair or whatever and beat everything.
CeLL
Smash Lord
Nair beats nothing lol. 2% hitboxes out-prioritized by some jabs, with highly unfavorable hitbox placement. Mewtwo's definitely not better than Fox, anyway. Go complain about him like everyone else. There shouldn't even be a nerf bat. Only a buff bat. All characters should be on the level of Fox/un-nerfed Ivysaur/un-nerfed Ike/un-nerfed Sonic. Not on the level of Brawl characters.
MetaKnight0
Smash Lord
that's called powercreep and its not good game design
that also makes the game less fun because its extremely difficult to gauge exactly how well a buff will work down the road. if something initially doesn't seem all that strong but ends up being extremely strong, then by your reasoning the only thing they can do is buff all the other characters again to make up for that new power level. which then loops the same situation where a buff may end up being too powerful, and then suddenly you have a hilariously ****ty broken game where everyone is great but the game is zero fun because the moment someone gets touched it's a 1P game.
much easier to nerf one character then try and buff the rest of the cast to catch up to that one character
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
I think Mewtwo is objectively high-mid (like between 12 and 15) but his metagame is a bit further advanced than his position due to the amount of good players playing him.
CeLL
Smash Lord
(I am including game mechanics as part of characters. If MK were put in Melee, his attacks would have the same hitstun as in Brawl. If 64 Pikachu were put in Brawl, his attacks would have the same hitstun as in 64 and would not be able to be DI'ed. This is a mostly arbitrary decision that needs to be made in order to avoid confusion)
The exact opposite is also true. Nerf one character. That nerf went a little too far, so nerf all the other characters to match. Cycle continues.
(Besides, look at how ridiculously strong all the SSB64 characters are. That game's still fun.)
You can't take either way too far, or you'll get a bad game, but currently you'll find a lot more complaints about over-powered characters than under-powered ones. I will continue to be a strong proponent of buffing bad characters over nerfing good ones until the immediate reaction of many people upon seeing a good character is not "NERF!" without any thought at all.
The question is of where to draw the line. We want all characters to be equally good, but how good is that? The SSB64 characters are too strong. The Brawl characters are waaay to weak. In my opinion (and more and more people's opinion, given the recent rise in popularity of Melee), the Melee top 6 characters are the most fun both to play and watch in the series, and that the characters in PM should be close to that level. Currently pretty much only Fox and Falco are on that level in PM, with a handful being pretty close. No one in PM is better than Fox and Falco in Melee, though, and only when that happens do people need to get nerfed.
When I say there shouldn't be a nerf bat, I mean currently, not always. No character is too good at the moment, only not good enough.
Also, easy ≠ good result, just saying.
Diddy main here. Can confirm.
xXSciophobiaXx
Smash Apprentice
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Do you know of a thread/post/quote that goes into detail about the mewtwo vs diddy matchup? Or if you're willing to flesh out a few of the parts of mewtwo's move set, matchup that make him counter diddy? I had a lot of trouble with diddy. I noticed that whenever diddy did his air-grab (side-b?) he would throw me and follow with a fair and I couldn't escape it, which way should I DI to dodge the follow up Fair?
Not really, but sure, I can explain. First, to your question, I don't actually know- I've never been on the receiving end of it, but Diddy gets decent followups vs slowfallers. The correct answer here is why are you getting hit by the air grab often? The grabbox is actually inside of Diddy's hurtbox, so just throw out an attack and Diddy shouldn't be able to grab you with a side B except in cases where he's conditioned you and gets a hard read.
Mewtwo wins because:
1: Diddy is the perfect combo weight. He's a fastfaller. If Mewtwo gets a grab on Diddy, Mewtwo is going to get some stupid 50%+ combo if he's good, and probably more than that. Mewtwo, meanwhile, doesn't fear the same kind of hard return punishments as he's too floaty to be combo'd and can escape juggles with teleport.
2: Mewtwo has more options to make use of bananas than Diddy does. Mewtwo has a better glide toss (reverse roll glide toss is like half of FD). Mewtwo can use all of his aerial moveset out of float while holding on to a banana. Mewtwo can float or DJC over grounded bananas so they don't impede him much.
3: Mewtwo has more options to take control of bananas than Diddy. You have a reflector to take control if they are blindly thrown, you have a teleport that can instantly take you to any that are left on the stage, and of course that enormous wavedash and glide toss to get you from one banana to the other and quickly grab.
4: Diddy has all the tools needed to deal with Diddy's recovery, which can't really sweetspot. Mewtwo's dsmash and aerials are very well suited for this.
Luckily, most of you are too bad at handling bananas to realize how absurdly well-suited your character is to banana gameplay. The only one scarier is Zelda, and they know even less about it. And most PM players don't know that they can edgeguard Diddy by treating him like a super-C. Falcon and just being prepared to dsmash him if he goes low and jump and attack if he goes high.
In short, Diddy's banana game grants him very little stage control, and he gets punished much, much harder out of mistakes. If Mewtwo has a good banana game, he has a lot of good options to land techchases to murder-combos as well.
Mewtwo beats Diddy, but very few of you guys know how to play it.
xXSciophobiaXx
Smash Apprentice
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Thanks a lot. I appreciate that very much. That was a more in-depth response than most people get for character discussions. I was playing vs diddy when it was very late at night, so I don't ever remember how I was getting air grabbed, but I always remember getting punished.
As for the banana comments, I started screwing around with mewtwo's wavedash and banana manipulation and I have to agree, you can theif diddy's bananas really easy. This helps a lot for what problems I was having.
Which grab do you prefer at what percentages? I am under the impression that U-throw will be the best for comboing… but I guess downthrow has followups too.
Is it percent dependant?
I plan to incorporate more teleport-aerial to punish things like unsafe banana camping.
Thanks again.