Pyroloserkid
Smash Master
Wrong.
People don't play them at tournaments because they're not as popular as higher tier characters and people don't know how to use them effectively.
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How exactly are Tiers formed?
- Thread starter Gedennnnn
- Start date
- Status
People don't play them at tournaments because they're not as popular as higher tier characters and people don't know how to use them effectively.
5150
Banned via Administration
lol. you are such a scrub. have you ever even been to a tournament or played good people? its not a mystery how to use low tiers. there's nothing mysterious or secret about them. they have ****ty moves and ****ty tactics because they have ****ty moves. only noobs think that they have "super secret unlockable potential" lol.
ihavespaceblondes
Smash Master
No. Lots of people know how to use Mr. Game & Watch and Mewtwo "effectively". When used that way, they still suck against good players of most other characters.
Raptorbite
Smash Apprentice
Tiers are decided based on a general consensus of which characters perform better in most situations compared to all the other characters. Basically using general tournament performance between players of equal skill.
They aren't decided based on a characters performance on one stage or against one character as a control because of a degree of rock/paper/scissors dynamic inf the Smash games in regards to character performance.
They aren't decided based on a characters performance on one stage or against one character as a control because of a degree of rock/paper/scissors dynamic inf the Smash games in regards to character performance.
General Diddy
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2007
- Messages
- 136
you probably suck really bad with every character besides "teh top tiers" I main Marth, Ness, Mario, Luigi, and Jiggly Puff,(yes i main alot of characters) And i can do just fine with them. Even Mewtwo I could probably stand a moderate chance against "pros" with. Or even game and watch or kirby.
Hello everyone. I'm M3D, the staff member and moderator in charge of the Smash Back Room. I'm here to dispel the myth and rumors about how a tier list is made:
First of all, a tier list cannot be made immediately after a game comes out because developing an accurate list requires that tournaments and serious competitive play are taken into account. So when Brawl comes out, don't expect an official tier list for a little while. Just pick your favorite characters, play, compete, have fun and try to win in tournaments and in online play.
That said, here's how we create a tier list:
1. First, a game like Melee or Brawl is released and people immdiately begin discussing things on the forums. Tricks, combos and tactics are spread via the internet and by playing with friends and eventually major tournaments happen all over the country. The top players demonstrate their tricks and show off how effective (or ineffective, as the case may be) their favorite character is. Other people take what they learn from those tournaments and important matches, copy them, counter them and go back for more matches. Through this process, the "metagame" is formed. This idea of a metagame really means "how the game is commonly played using optimal tactics in a competitive environment." This helps us to understand the basics of what characters are good, which ones are bad and how various characters do against the rest of the cast.
2. All of this information, including tournament results, is collected by members of the Smash Back Room. It is analyzed and discussed over and over again, as the members begin to formulate ideas of which characters are the most effective and which ones struggle to compete at a high level of play. If there are any inconsistencies in the information or if there are questions about how certain moves or stages work, members of the SBR will test it repeatedly until the truth is found. For instance, when the IC infinite grab combos were first being discovered, we had players test a variety of methods of escape and methods to execute the grabs to determine exactly how it would work and if it would be a broken method of competition. All of this information is kept in mind as we all continue to compete and develop the metagame.
3. Eventually a kind of rough list begins to form in the SBR which classifies characters by levels of power. From there, members debate more specific matchups and look for critical weaknesses or strengths that could effect a character's placement in the final list. We get very, very specific here and cover a lot of tiny little details. From here, we get a better idea of which characters really stand out at each level.
4. Once we've gone through this entire process several times, taking into account recent tournament results and new tricks and tactics, a moderator calls for the first vote. Members of the SBR vote on the number of tiers and which characters fall into those tiers. A moderator will collect those votes and publish a first draft of the list. This first draft absolutely settles the issue of how many different tiers characters will be placed into.
5. A second vote is called, this time with the number of tiers set. Members then get to vote which characters will fall into the tiers. The votes are tallied and a final list is compiled. This is the list you see published by a mod.
6. Periodically this process is repeated in the Back Room and the tier list is adjusted to reflect the current metagame. For instance, Ice Climbers climbed a few tiers when some of their more advanced techniques were discovered. To the contrary, the Luigi game didn't evolve as much as the rest of the the cast, so he gradually sunk down a tier.
Obviously, tiers can not be absolute, because we continue to learn more about the game all the time. However, if you look at the current SBR Tier List, you can see that it is very similar to the one we've been working from about 2004. I think its clear that the SBR has consistently made accurate lists.
All of that said, if you want to have a hand in the creation of the SBR Tier List for Brawl, then get involved in the community, host tournaments and/or become one of the best players in the country. Only the members that make the biggest contributions get invited into the room. If you want to make sure that your favorite character gets represented well, make sure to post all your tricks and videos and compete regularly in tournaments to demonstrate just how great he/she/it is in competitive play.
First of all, a tier list cannot be made immediately after a game comes out because developing an accurate list requires that tournaments and serious competitive play are taken into account. So when Brawl comes out, don't expect an official tier list for a little while. Just pick your favorite characters, play, compete, have fun and try to win in tournaments and in online play.
That said, here's how we create a tier list:
1. First, a game like Melee or Brawl is released and people immdiately begin discussing things on the forums. Tricks, combos and tactics are spread via the internet and by playing with friends and eventually major tournaments happen all over the country. The top players demonstrate their tricks and show off how effective (or ineffective, as the case may be) their favorite character is. Other people take what they learn from those tournaments and important matches, copy them, counter them and go back for more matches. Through this process, the "metagame" is formed. This idea of a metagame really means "how the game is commonly played using optimal tactics in a competitive environment." This helps us to understand the basics of what characters are good, which ones are bad and how various characters do against the rest of the cast.
2. All of this information, including tournament results, is collected by members of the Smash Back Room. It is analyzed and discussed over and over again, as the members begin to formulate ideas of which characters are the most effective and which ones struggle to compete at a high level of play. If there are any inconsistencies in the information or if there are questions about how certain moves or stages work, members of the SBR will test it repeatedly until the truth is found. For instance, when the IC infinite grab combos were first being discovered, we had players test a variety of methods of escape and methods to execute the grabs to determine exactly how it would work and if it would be a broken method of competition. All of this information is kept in mind as we all continue to compete and develop the metagame.
3. Eventually a kind of rough list begins to form in the SBR which classifies characters by levels of power. From there, members debate more specific matchups and look for critical weaknesses or strengths that could effect a character's placement in the final list. We get very, very specific here and cover a lot of tiny little details. From here, we get a better idea of which characters really stand out at each level.
4. Once we've gone through this entire process several times, taking into account recent tournament results and new tricks and tactics, a moderator calls for the first vote. Members of the SBR vote on the number of tiers and which characters fall into those tiers. A moderator will collect those votes and publish a first draft of the list. This first draft absolutely settles the issue of how many different tiers characters will be placed into.
5. A second vote is called, this time with the number of tiers set. Members then get to vote which characters will fall into the tiers. The votes are tallied and a final list is compiled. This is the list you see published by a mod.
6. Periodically this process is repeated in the Back Room and the tier list is adjusted to reflect the current metagame. For instance, Ice Climbers climbed a few tiers when some of their more advanced techniques were discovered. To the contrary, the Luigi game didn't evolve as much as the rest of the the cast, so he gradually sunk down a tier.
Obviously, tiers can not be absolute, because we continue to learn more about the game all the time. However, if you look at the current SBR Tier List, you can see that it is very similar to the one we've been working from about 2004. I think its clear that the SBR has consistently made accurate lists.
All of that said, if you want to have a hand in the creation of the SBR Tier List for Brawl, then get involved in the community, host tournaments and/or become one of the best players in the country. Only the members that make the biggest contributions get invited into the room. If you want to make sure that your favorite character gets represented well, make sure to post all your tricks and videos and compete regularly in tournaments to demonstrate just how great he/she/it is in competitive play.
Pyroloserkid
Smash Master
Excuse me? I attend the GTA tournaments that all the best Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, etc. players attend. Yes low tiers have crap moves, but if you know how to use them properly a good Game and Watch can beat a Fox. Game and Watch happens to be really good against fast fallers fyi, scrub.
Oh, and another piece of info, I main Falco, not Game and Watch. I'm not one of those low-tier purists that you probably think I am.
Clearly your knowledge on Tiers and how characters match up against others is very minimal. So unless you have anything productive to say, stop targeting and insulting me and leave this thread.
Thank you. In most cases, tier =/= skill.
Only when facing people with no mindgames or intelligent play at all you can pull of a win with a High Tier and no skill.
Thank you for clearly that up M3D.
IShotLazer
Smash Journeyman
Tournament standings mostly determine the tier list. If people suddenly starting winning with mewtwo, and won very consistently, you would see mewtwo climb the tier list.
IShotLazer
Smash Journeyman
wow, thank you so much m3d... that was refreshing to see.
Seriously, you cleared it up great. ^^
Seriously, you cleared it up great. ^^
Tiers are formed due to general consensus and are based solely on popularity; it is the factors that determine that popularity that involve the game itself.
The more a character wins or places high in tournaments, the higher that character is perceived to be on the tier list. This is attributed not only to popularity but also the character's inherent strengths. Unfortunately, due to unbalancing in Smash this realistically boils down to the characters being listed from, again in the general opinion of the Smash community, most to least broken, with the top tiers always shifting around every now and then.
You've gotta understand that even if, say, Roy, had the most powerful F-smash in the game (and his F-smash is already very powerful) it wouldn't affect his tier standings that much. Here's why:
-Roy's weaknesses weigh against him
-Roy's comparison to other characters that are faster but can still dish out the same amount of damage weighs against him
-Roy's comparison to the vastly superior Marth weighs heavily against him
All of these things, and his general mediocrity, make him less of a desirable character, and therefore less played. Furthermore, his general mediocrity makes it harder for players to win with him, making it less likely that they'll win tournaments. The fact that Roy's FE game sucked only adds insult to injury.
Ergo, Roy has a low position on the tier list because he is unpopular and not that good of a character, which, along with his low position on the tier list, furthers his unpopularity.
Edit: On the opposite side of the coin, we have Roy's counterpart, Marth, who is a top tier (or top queer
) character. And why is this?
-Marth already has his large FE fandom and popularity going for him
-Marth is a speedy combo beast, which boosts his popularity
-Marth is easy to use, which boosts his popularity
-Marth's sword is broken, but for those who use him that translates to "AWESOME! I can kick your ***** left and right!", which boosts his popularity
-Marth's strengths allow those who are good at him to easily win in tournaments, which creates the impression that he is a superior character and therefore, raises his spot on the tier list
All of these things make Marth a more desirable and popular character, which only serves to make him even more desirable and popular and played, and thus, higher on the tier list.
The more a character wins or places high in tournaments, the higher that character is perceived to be on the tier list. This is attributed not only to popularity but also the character's inherent strengths. Unfortunately, due to unbalancing in Smash this realistically boils down to the characters being listed from, again in the general opinion of the Smash community, most to least broken, with the top tiers always shifting around every now and then.
You've gotta understand that even if, say, Roy, had the most powerful F-smash in the game (and his F-smash is already very powerful) it wouldn't affect his tier standings that much. Here's why:
-Roy's weaknesses weigh against him
-Roy's comparison to other characters that are faster but can still dish out the same amount of damage weighs against him
-Roy's comparison to the vastly superior Marth weighs heavily against him
All of these things, and his general mediocrity, make him less of a desirable character, and therefore less played. Furthermore, his general mediocrity makes it harder for players to win with him, making it less likely that they'll win tournaments. The fact that Roy's FE game sucked only adds insult to injury.
Ergo, Roy has a low position on the tier list because he is unpopular and not that good of a character, which, along with his low position on the tier list, furthers his unpopularity.
Edit: On the opposite side of the coin, we have Roy's counterpart, Marth, who is a top tier (or top queer
) character. And why is this?-Marth already has his large FE fandom and popularity going for him
-Marth is a speedy combo beast, which boosts his popularity
-Marth is easy to use, which boosts his popularity
-Marth's sword is broken, but for those who use him that translates to "AWESOME! I can kick your ***** left and right!", which boosts his popularity
-Marth's strengths allow those who are good at him to easily win in tournaments, which creates the impression that he is a superior character and therefore, raises his spot on the tier list
All of these things make Marth a more desirable and popular character, which only serves to make him even more desirable and popular and played, and thus, higher on the tier list.
Gedennnnn
Smash Journeyman
Wow. Thanks M3D I think that answeered every question I could possibly come up with.
5150
Banned via Administration
money match? btw i am a low tier champ.
are you ****ing serious? money match?
unnknownz
Smash Apprentice
you could tell who is the best/worst character
Pyroloserkid
Smash Master
You're ********. We live in two different countries.
Lgndknight
Smash Ace
Can you give me a reason Pichu has better gameplay than Marth? Can you give a better reason Mewtwo has better gameplay than Shiek? It kind of works itself out, mostly it's based on ability to approach an enemy, ability to juggle, and spikes/meteors.
There ARE alot of haters around here. People who hate each other, are very aggressively against other peoples opinions, and think a low tier character is a waste of time. Look at Gimpyfish...Taj...and that DK dude. They arent the best but they are GOOD. And people really need to respect the thoughts of others.
I am now fully prepared to have people cuss me out and prove what Im saying
I am now fully prepared to have people cuss me out and prove what Im saying
Gedennnnn
Smash Journeyman
Fart you, you mother farter. Ha. Jk.
Dragon Master Luigi
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2007
- Messages
- 190
Like Gimpyfish said, there are no such thing as Tiers.. its plain out stupid...
InvincibleAgent
Smash Lord
Maybe a better way to say it is that Tiers are how well people have done, not how good it's possible to be. Perhaps how well people have done is a comprehensive account of how good you can be, perhaps not.
volbound1700
Smash Master
I am not an expert or huge smasher in past but when I saw tier system, I thought it was brilliant and agreed with it. However, I have found that certain characters work well against others.
For example Fox is very good against Pikachu or Mario but terrible against Ganon and Link.
Link is good against Ganon, Fox, Zelda, and several others but terrible against Pikachu.
Marth is typically good against everyone, but can struggle with Ganon, Link, Kirby, or other sword-fighting/long range fighters.
Ganon is tough because of his one hit kills but his recovery and lag is so terrible that it prevents him from being a top tier.
For example Fox is very good against Pikachu or Mario but terrible against Ganon and Link.
Link is good against Ganon, Fox, Zelda, and several others but terrible against Pikachu.
Marth is typically good against everyone, but can struggle with Ganon, Link, Kirby, or other sword-fighting/long range fighters.
Ganon is tough because of his one hit kills but his recovery and lag is so terrible that it prevents him from being a top tier.
volbound1700
Smash Master
Agree with this post
lol. Why is fox terrible against Link/Ganon?
This is asked alot...but this is the exact way tiers are formed.
If two players of exactly equal skill are playing each other on a completley neutral and hazard free stage with no items, then one character will 9 times out of 10 beat another.
For example: 2 players of exactly equal smash skill on final destination, with items off. One player is using Mewtwo, and the other is using Fox. The Fox user will win the vast majority of times.
If two players of exactly equal skill are playing each other on a completley neutral and hazard free stage with no items, then one character will 9 times out of 10 beat another.
For example: 2 players of exactly equal smash skill on final destination, with items off. One player is using Mewtwo, and the other is using Fox. The Fox user will win the vast majority of times.
shadydentist
Smash Lord
The arguement that a game and watch can beat a fox is dumb. Consider these two things:
A. Few people play low tiers.
B. Few low tiers win tournaments
A lot of people are trying to argue that A causes B, but in reality B causes A because this late in the games lifespan, every trick with every character is more or less known.
A. Few people play low tiers.
B. Few low tiers win tournaments
A lot of people are trying to argue that A causes B, but in reality B causes A because this late in the games lifespan, every trick with every character is more or less known.
Maben
Smash Journeyman
Tires Don Exits
False, and stop spreading lies.
Youko
Podcasting Pro
- Status