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How exactly are Tiers formed?

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Gedennnnn

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If its just pro's picking who the best and worst are that'd be kinda lame. For instance, I really don't think Mewtwo is bottom below Pichu and Bowser. How did that happen? I don't use him because I just hate him but he has a really good projectile, alright recovery, his roll is basically a wavedash, all his arials are pretty good and his forward and up smash are effective. I don't see how he ended up under Pichu and Bowser.

Anyway, I'd just like to know how they're formed. So I know what to expect when the Brawl list comes out.
 

Norgay

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Well, This probably should be posted in the melee forum area. But I believe the tiers were formed by the number of tournaments won by certain characters.
 

5150

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when a mommy smasher and a daddy smasher feel very special about each other they like to make something called a "tier list". this is a list of birthday presents theyw ill give their baby smasher which is delivered through isai's pet pelicans. the first birthday present is always a gc controller. then on their 2nd birthday they get a coach ticket to the ec where they are baptized at chillindude's house (with bris). so what's next on your tier list? idk, go ask ****ing jiano hes my dad or at least that's what he makes me call his stupid face >:(
 

1ofMany_ppl

Smash Apprentice
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I believe "tiers" are formed by taking each character and pretending to play them flawlessly ( their absolute best) and determining based on that information who would win. Ex. Fox vs. Link.
Fox is faster, can deflect projectiles, has faster moves ( I believe) // Link isn't as fast uses alot of projectiles but has a longer grab. Link's FS needs to be used at a certain time, Fox's does not need to be used at a certain time to work. If we were to have these 2 fight with each being flawless fox would have the upper hand and therefore win. So now Fox is top tier and Link is bottom tier, though thats only using 2 characters. If you use more you take the top tier and vs a character if the character "loses" you go to the second tier, if he wins he becomes 2nd tier and the original 2nd tier becomes 3rd, so fourth so on. You might ask why doesn't "2nd tier" face the rest, right? Well if he can beat 3rd tier then he can beat each one beneath it as well. Though this only refers to who has the better chance not who will absolutely win.

Hope this helps.
 

Magnacor

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When a mommy and a daddy love each other very much... I'm sorry. I couldn't help myself. Anyway, tiers are formed by if two players were at an equal skill level and went up against each other the higher tier would win. I don't know who decides this, but that is how it is decided.

EDIT: I hate you 5120, you beat me to my fantastic joke. I will now proceed to use my angry smily icons to disturb and send you into a state of insanity.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
 

Onichi

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I always thought it was BRoomers on this forum were those selected Smasher Pro's that discuss the meta-game of characters tiers. Somewhere between between equally skilled pro's, new techniques and properties of movesets, and which character is seen at the top of tournaments.
 

Gedennnnn

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when a mommy smasher and a daddy smasher feel very special about each other they like to make something called a "tier list". this is a list of birthday presents theyw ill give their baby smasher which is delivered through isai's pet pelicans. the first birthday present is always a gc controller. then on their 2nd birthday they get a coach ticket to the ec where they are baptized at chillindude's house (with bris). so what's next on your tier list? idk, go ask ****ing jiano hes my dad or at least that's what he makes me call his stupid face >:(
Elaborate.
 

Perfect Chaos

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First of all, this doesn't belong here. Second, his projectile isn't that great. Third, his recovery is better than "alright", it's one of the best in the game. Fourth, his roll may slightly resemble what a wavedash looks like, but your missing the main thing that makes wavedashing superior to rolling (and that is the fact you can do anything while in the sliding phase). Fifth, Mewtwo's smashes aren't that great; they have a lot of lag (both before and after the attack). Most, if not all, of Mewtwo's game does not include smashes. Mewtwo just simply doesn't have good way of approaching someone, altogether.
And there are debates between Pichu and Mewtwo being dead last. Pichu was last in the previous tier list, and Mewtwo was second to last, but they switched for the most recent one. The difference isn't really that big to fuss over. And as for Bowser, he can do a lot better than Mewtwo as a whole. I'm guessing you haven't really seen many match footages of pros that specialize in these characters, and is judging this base on only your own personal observations as you play with your local friends.
And to put it simply, the tier list is based on the placings of the characters in many large, high-stakes tournaments.
 

1ofMany_ppl

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I always thought it was BRoomers on this forum were those selected Smasher Pro's that discuss the meta-game of characters tiers. Somewhere between between equally skilled pro's, new techniques and properties of movesets, and which character is seen at the top of tournaments.
This is somewhat true cause it's hard for "non-pro" players to figure out ridiculous combos that would factor into the scenario of the pitting each character together and having them perform flawlessly then using known info to find out who is better. It's almost like just taking 2 characters and looking at the pros and cons of each and see which has more pros and also which "negates" the "others" pros. Link has alot of projectles= pro / Fox has projectiles and can reflect other projectiles= pro and cancelling Link's pro when versing him.

Edit// I typed this because on another forum it said the exact same thing. That is why I said "I believe". I am simply trying to help if I wrong, ignore my posts.
 

Gedennnnn

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First of all, this doesn't belong here. Second, his projectile isn't that great. Third, his recovery is better than "alright", it's one of the best in the game. Fourth, his roll may slightly resemble what a wavedash looks like, but your missing the main thing that makes wavedashing superior to rolling (and that is the fact you can do anything while in the sliding phase). Fifth, Mewtwo's smashes aren't that great; they have a lot of lag (both before and after the attack). Most, if not all, of Mewtwo's game does not include smashes. Mewtwo just simply doesn't have good way of approaching someone, altogether.
And there are debates between Pichu and Mewtwo being dead last. Pichu was last in the previous tier list, and Mewtwo was second to last, but they switched for the most recent one. The difference isn't really that big to fuss over. And as for Bowser, he can do a lot better than Mewtwo as a whole. I'm guessing you haven't really seen many match footages of pros that specialize in these characters, and is judging this base on only your own personal observations as you play with your local friends.
And to put it simply, the tier list is based on the placings of the characters in many large, high-stakes tournaments.

His wavedash is also good. I wasn't talking about wavedashing for attacks just for movement. His smash's are powerful I specifically said forward and up smash because they're the best. His down smash is just bad. He has decent tilts. Bowser is slow. Really slow the only things he really has going for him are his arials and his forward and up smash. I've seen enough match's and footage to know that Bowser should be lower. A Bowser vs a Mewtwo would win without a doubt. He has an aerial advantage and speed advantage. Plus his chargeable projectile. It's slow but better than Bowsers Fire Breath. Only thing thats good for is edge guarding which a Mewtwo would easily be able to get around anyways.
 

Gedennnnn

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I always thought it was BRoomers on this forum were those selected Smasher Pro's that discuss the meta-game of characters tiers. Somewhere between between equally skilled pro's, new techniques and properties of movesets, and which character is seen at the top of tournaments.
There's really no such thing as equally skilled people. Unless everytime they play eachother its a draw, which I've never even seen in smash. Not even sure if you can do it in this game.Unless thats what sudden deaths are for but even then it's still sketchy.
 

EDreams

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You think pros wouldn't know Mewtwo better than you do?

Tiers aren't spur-of-the-moment decisions.
 

Gedennnnn

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You think pros wouldn't know Mewtwo better than you do?

Tiers aren't spur-of-the-moment decisions.

I know it takes a lot of time to make tiers just I haven't heard any valid argument to why he's lowest but oh well. I didn;t wantthis to turn into a Bowser vs Mewtwo thread.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Tiers do not dictate winners.
Winners dictate tiers.

Unless you have tournament proof of a character beating a higher tier character (consistently and repeatedly), all characters remain in their rightful place. Attempting to reason through this process is simply unproductive.
 

Lavos

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You know that website you're posting on? Smashboards. That one! Have you ever noticed the board called the back room? That one you can't even look at. That's where the tiers are made.

Basically, all the pros and knowledgeable smashers get together and decide who goes where, mostly based upon big tourny results. If you really want to know the whys and hows of the process, you have three options.

1. Get smart
2. Get good
3. Befriend someone who meets 1 or 2

Now get going so you don't have to make topics like this ever again.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Kay. Back to the topic. Anyone have a thorough explanation on it? Instead of a bunch of general ones.
Tiers are a statistical analysis of which characters win the most often. What's not to understand?
 

Rain(ame)

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I'll take a potato chip....and eat it!!!
Lol, okay, here's the deal. It's like what was said before. Tiers are based upon tournament performance. The "How a character matches up to another" is just solely for the character matchup. There just happens to be more Fox and Falco players out there winning tournaments than there are Roy and Link Players. (JUST an example, don't thikn I'm trying to single out characters) With the exception of a few truly skilled players of "lower-tiered" characters most people who play certain characters don't place well. This is why you've got the Tier list.

Take for instance....my two friends.....one can't play melee for beans and can't learn what he needs to because he's stubborn. The other knows a LITTLE about it because he used to play 64 and abuses smash attacks. Essentially....both of them are ABOUT equal skill level, right? Wrong. The second friend of mind actually knows how to play smart when he realizes he can't abuse smash attacks. In all reality, if they had roughly the same amount of experience, a Ganondorf vs. Kirby match would obviously be the former. HOWEVER the matchup was in favor of my second friend who played Smarter and 2-stocked the Gannondorf. Had they have both not played and picked it up for the first time, the easier victory would go to Ganondorf.

A better example....My one friend has a decent Samus. My other friend who I mentioned used Kirby played him with Marth....and one. (I swear...you can gay kill him with Marth SO easily.) Why? This is because Marth>Samus. The first friend of mine is the better player by far. No matter whether it was 64 or Melee. However, Marth, being as broken as he is....helped the less experienced and....overall worse player get the victory. Tiers are where they are because of how easy it is to gain victory with them. Who is easier to be even 51 with: Fox or Mewtwo? Answer: Fox. You can Fire Fox the crap out of them to your heart's content. Now yes, there are bad matchups, like Roy vs. Jiggs. Roy>Jiggs in that matchup. Overall, Jiggs>Roy in tournaments which means that Jiggs is higher up on the Tier list. People are winning with the higher tier characters, which is why they are higher tier. When You start seeing Zeldas, Roys, Bowsers, Ness', and so on winning tournaments on a regular basis and more than the rest, then you can have whatever kind of tier list you want based upon their performance.


Best example: SSB64 Pikachu>All. It was quoted it's not Super Smash Bros., it's who has the best Pikachu. All in all, Pikachu had the best....everything, he just lacked a spike. Still, everyone was Pikachu, and Pikachu was gaining victories like Crazy. Who was under him? Kirby. And then? Ness. And then? C. Falcon and Fox. That's who was getting the victoires and they were the best characters in the game.


So: Tiers come based upon performance in tournaments. If a character is more likely to win, then more than likely they're top or high tier. Yes, there are exceptions, but they put in the time.


Big props to: Gimpyfish, Sethlon, Korn(or is is Korin?), and all the other awesome players that **** with Low tiers.
 

Gedennnnn

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You know that website you're posting on? Smashboards. That one! Have you ever noticed the board called the back room? That one you can't even look at. That's where the tiers are made.

Basically, all the pros and knowledgeable smashers get together and decide who goes where, mostly based upon big tourny results. If you really want to know the whys and hows of the process, you have three options.

1. Get smart
2. Get good
3. Befriend someone who meets 1 or 2

Now get going so you don't have to make topics like this ever again.
Okay. Bye.
 

Gedennnnn

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Messages
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Lol, okay, here's the deal. It's like what was said before. Tiers are based upon tournament performance. The "How a character matches up to another" is just solely for the character matchup. There just happens to be more Fox and Falco players out there winning tournaments than there are Roy and Link Players. (JUST an example, don't thikn I'm trying to single out characters) With the exception of a few truly skilled players of "lower-tiered" characters most people who play certain characters don't place well. This is why you've got the Tier list.

Take for instance....my two friends.....one can't play melee for beans and can't learn what he needs to because he's stubborn. The other knows a LITTLE about it because he used to play 64 and abuses smash attacks. Essentially....both of them are ABOUT equal skill level, right? Wrong. The second friend of mind actually knows how to play smart when he realizes he can't abuse smash attacks. In all reality, if they had roughly the same amount of experience, a Ganondorf vs. Kirby match would obviously be the former. HOWEVER the matchup was in favor of my second friend who played Smarter and 2-stocked the Gannondorf. Had they have both not played and picked it up for the first time, the easier victory would go to Ganondorf.

A better example....My one friend has a decent Samus. My other friend who I mentioned used Kirby played him with Marth....and one. (I swear...you can gay kill him with Marth SO easily.) Why? This is because Marth>Samus. The first friend of mine is the better player by far. No matter whether it was 64 or Melee. However, Marth, being as broken as he is....helped the less experienced and....overall worse player get the victory. Tiers are where they are because of how easy it is to gain victory with them. Who is easier to be even 51 with: Fox or Mewtwo? Answer: Fox. You can Fire Fox the crap out of them to your heart's content. Now yes, there are bad matchups, like Roy vs. Jiggs. Roy>Jiggs in that matchup. Overall, Jiggs>Roy in tournaments which means that Jiggs is higher up on the Tier list. People are winning with the higher tier characters, which is why they are higher tier. When You start seeing Zeldas, Roys, Bowsers, Ness', and so on winning tournaments on a regular basis and more than the rest, then you can have whatever kind of tier list you want based upon their performance.


Best example: SSB64 Pikachu>All. It was quoted it's not Super Smash Bros., it's who has the best Pikachu. All in all, Pikachu had the best....everything, he just lacked a spike. Still, everyone was Pikachu, and Pikachu was gaining victories like Crazy. Who was under him? Kirby. And then? Ness. And then? C. Falcon and Fox. That's who was getting the victoires and they were the best characters in the game.


So: Tiers come based upon performance in tournaments. If a character is more likely to win, then more than likely they're top or high tier. Yes, there are exceptions, but they put in the time.


Big props to: Gimpyfish, Sethlon, Korn(or is is Korin?), and all the other awesome players that **** with Low tiers.


Thank you very much. That's all I wanted.
 

Lavos

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Rain, I commend you for giving the long story, but the Ganon/Kirby example is slightly inaccurate. Kirby makes for a very effective Ganon counter. Lower tier counters are something the tier list tends to neglect. =/

But other than me being picky, thanks for holding the TC's hand!
 

SuperLink9

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My problem with the tier list is that some characters higher up are "broken" (i.e. anyone can make them good) but some characters are actually hard to use an require a bit of practice. IMO Fox and Falco are quite hard to use, but Shiek/Peach/Marth could be considered "broken" when just anyone comes along and uses them well. This is why I hope for a lot more evening in Brawl (remember, Melee was rushed)
 

shadydentist

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IMO Fox and Falco are quite hard to use, but Shiek/Peach/Marth could be considered "broken" when just anyone comes along and uses them well.
Not exactly. At a high level of ability, its not easy to use anyone well without practice. Peach is actually a quite tricky character to handle, with her float cancelling tricks and whatnot. Believe it or not, smash is one of the most balanced fighters, with a much higher percentage of feasibly competitive characters.
 

schlepboogie

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Oct 14, 2007
Messages
156
If its just pro's picking who the best and worst are that'd be kinda lame. For instance, I really don't think Mewtwo is bottom below Pichu and Bowser. How did that happen? I don't use him because I just hate him but he has a really good projectile, alright recovery, his roll is basically a wavedash, all his arials are pretty good and his forward and up smash are effective. I don't see how he ended up under Pichu and Bowser.

Anyway, I'd just like to know how they're formed. So I know what to expect when the Brawl list comes out.

tiers are formed by a bunch of ***s who have no social life. the end
 

gigasteve

Smash Ace
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730
When a mommy and a daddy love each other very much... I'm sorry. I couldn't help myself. Anyway, tiers are formed by if two players were at an equal skill level and went up against each other the higher tier would win. I don't know who decides this, but that is how it is decided.

EDIT: I hate you 5120, you beat me to my fantastic joke. I will now proceed to use my angry smily icons to disturb and send you into a state of insanity.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
You stole my joke, which I was gonna use until he posted it, so I was gonna post it again until you posted it, which led me to think "If he posted the post I was going to, but posting it would cancel yours, leading my post to overcome, but his post would lead to SPAM". Yes, those faces drove me crazy.
And also, I think tiers don't exist. I could own with a couple people from each tier.
 

Pyroloserkid

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Tier Lists are formed by analyzing how characters do in tournaments. The more a certain character is played(Fox), the better they do in tournaments, thus: a higher spot on the tier list.

I believe that Mewtwo(and Game and Watch) should be ALOT higher up, but since no one ever plays Mewtwo, he isn't really a topic of discussion regarding tier lists.
 

5150

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Tier Lists are formed by analyzing how characters do in tournaments. The more a certain character is played(Fox), the better they do in tournaments, thus: a higher spot on the tier list.

I believe that Mewtwo(and Game and Watch) should be ALOT higher up, but since no one ever plays Mewtwo, he isn't really a topic of discussion regarding tier lists.
wrong. people dont play them at tournaments because they suck.
 

:034:

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A tier list is a ranking of each character's metagame, based on 1-on-1 battles with tournament settings. The metagame is the peak of competitive play - the overall skills of all the top players. A character's metagame is this cumulative knowledge as applied to a particular character. The tier list is made by the Back Roomers. I assume there will be a Brawl Back Room when the game comes out.
 
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