How do you use Nosferatu?

[Touchebag]

If we are going into custom territory I think that Nos3 is really nice. The healing is nice but I usually see it as just a bonus. I'll happily trade it for longer range and more damage.

And Nos2 is not just for doubles. Do not underestimate the surprise factor of a long range Nosferatu.

 

[Hong]

If we are going into custom territory I think that Nos3 is really nice. The healing is nice but I usually see it as just a bonus. I'll happily trade it for longer range and more damage.

And Nos2 is not just for doubles. Do not underestimate the surprise factor of a long range Nosferatu.

Agreed. Goetia is easily my pick for the best version. The grab aspect of Nosferatu is infinitely more valuable than the damage or healing. The other two versions have very finicky range and timing. If you are not using Nosferatu as a grab and you are just using it on enemies raw, you could have just hit them. The healing is noteworthy when you are at an immense damage deficit, sure, but even then unless the enemy is below 80% and I am somehow at 175%+, I rather just hit them with the Levin Sword for stage control or something. Goetia enhances the aspect that makes it the most distinct of Robin's moves and makes it stronger in the role where you are most likely to find value from it, though, Nos2 is nice because it offers its own unique opportunities.

 

[Thinkaman]

Nos 2 can be landed against poor-SDI opponents IMMEDIATELY after a correct range arcfire/arcthunder, or after SDI-ing out of a multi-hit jab if the opponent doesn't respond quickly. (These do not work with Nos 1/3) You can also use it as a very high-risk away-roll punish. That's about it.

The added value of a grab is non-existent on a move that can be responded to on reaction, because the entire value of a grab is bypassing shields--which can be acted out of immediately. Nosfertu is useless in the neutral.

Additionally, the reward for this incredibly difficult to land move is super low in 1v1 against anyone who can mash out. We're talking only a few %, with trivial healing.


Contrast with Ganon side-b 1, another very slow (also frame 16) move. Flame Choke has a massively higher reward unaffected by button mashing, almost always converting to at least 25% (d-tilt followup) which kills at ~110%. It can also tech chase for higher reward, and serves as an aerial approach tool.

More importantly, Flame Choke beats ALL of the following due to the snapback and wide area covered:

• Slow-reaction shield
• Spot Dodge
  
• Defensive tilts
  
• Away-Roll
• Some standard grabs

It also is relatively safe to inward-roll, usually only risking a dash attack.

Nos 1 only beats the first 2, while only giving a reward inferior to his normal moveset options (including grab).
Nos 2 only beats away-roll, at an even lower reward.
Nos 3 only beats spot dodge and defensive tilts, and only sometimes due to its inferior speed. The reward is still low, probably less than Nos 1 honestly.

In any case, the other opponent options (including inward-roll) allow f-smash levels of punishment.

It's just a terrible 1v1 proposition. In teams though, Nos 2 becomes safe (you have a teammate in front of you), easy to land (your teammate is pressuring them), and offers an high reward (your teammate's f-smash).

Nos 1 might work as an aerial mixup if they are just reeeally expecting you to fair into their shield for some reason. Nos 3 is too slow for this purpose, you can't surprise a shielding opponent with a ~30 frame move.

 

[Touchebag]

Now you're just judging the move on it's own (granted, this thread is a discussion about said move). I admit that it loses to Flame Choke in many aspects but you have to remember who is using the move. Flame Choke would be really bad on Robin due to him having worse follow-ups than Ganondorf.

Nosferatu is more or less a substitute for Robin's (bad) grab. Sure, you lose the throws but they're kind of mediocre as well.

 

[Thinkaman]

Nosferatu is more or less a substitute for Robin's (bad) grab. Sure, you lose the throws but they're kind of mediocre as well.

It's not a substitute for grab; the few situations you can land Nosferatu in are not ones you would use grab. If anything, it's more like a reward-less f-smash substitute on the ground, and a poor range reward-less aerial Flame Choke in the air.

 

[Touchebag]

It's not a substitute for grab; the few situations you can land Nosferatu in are not ones you would use grab. If anything, it's more like a reward-less f-smash substitute on the ground, and a poor range reward-less aerial Flame Choke in the air.

I was referring more to what to use it against (i.e. shields) than always using it instead of grabs. Bad wording on my part. I apologise.

 

[Mac2492]

I find Nosferatu useful primarily when at a higher percentage than the opponent. The heal scales based on this difference and can heal you for 30% once the gap is large enough. This helps you stall out a stock lead or stage a comeback. Immediately after gaining an advantage I try to mixup a Nosferatu or two into my punishes just to eek every last bit out of that life. Realize that even a 20% heal and 10% damage is still 30% in your favor with a single move.

I don't find it particularly useful at lower percentages and avoid using it until later except as an aerial punish. On the ground you're better off using a roll cancel grab.

 

[Thinkaman]

Right, a significant %-gap is the only situation in which the reward for landing nosfertu 1/2 is remotely worth it.

If %s are even, it's a joke. Landing a 16-frame move for 5% damage, and healing 2%? That's just a bad deal.

But if you are at 100%+ and they are at 0%, you might heal 6-8%. That's... well, better.

You will never be healing for 20%+ against a real opponent, who can mash out of it.

Meanwhile, the reward for 3 is never worth it.

 

[Touchebag]

Right, a significant %-gap is the only situation in which the reward for landing nosfertu 1/2 is remotely worth it.

If %s are even, it's a joke. Landing a 16-frame move for 5% damage, and healing 2%? That's just a bad deal.

But if you are at 100%+ and they are at 0%, you might heal 6-8%. That's... well, better.

You will never be healing for 20%+ against a real opponent, who can mash out of it.

Meanwhile, the reward for 3 is never worth it.

Fun fact: You can potentially heal up to ~260% with a single Nos if you're at the largest possible damage difference. Not in any way useful but it's nice to know how it scales.

 

[Demonstormkill]

IMO Nosferatu should sometimes be spammed while the opponent is offstage to pick up an 18% damage book.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

IMO Nosferatu should sometimes be spammed while the opponent is offstage to pick up an 18% damage book.

This is what I find myself doing a lot - that book is just too long to read. This is a really useful use to keep in mind, guys!

Landing Nosferatu on a stock lead is pretty valuable, however, and Trela had some good moments doing just that versus Denti. I really want to play around with Goetia, but I haven't found the time; while it loses the awesome healing, it trades off with being much easier to land and dealing more damage (which is also good for furthering a percentage lead).

Ultimately, it's not a terribly good move, but it still has it's uses.

 

[Raziek]

Agreed. Goetia is easily my pick for the best version. The grab aspect of Nosferatu is infinitely more valuable than the damage or healing. The other two versions have very finicky range and timing. If you are not using Nosferatu as a grab and you are just using it on enemies raw, you could have just hit them. The healing is noteworthy when you are at an immense damage deficit, sure, but even then unless the enemy is below 80% and I am somehow at 175%+, I rather just hit them with the Levin Sword for stage control or something. Goetia enhances the aspect that makes it the most distinct of Robin's moves and makes it stronger in the role where you are most likely to find value from it, though, Nos2 is nice because it offers its own unique opportunities.

I really can't agree.

The healing is immensely valuable, given the swings in momentum it can cause.

I never ever use anything but default, after trying each.

People who want to know what situations to land it in should honestly just watch my matches. I use it constantly.

 

[MarthFanatique]

I use it occasionally for the following:

--When having a stock lead and I have a high percentage, I use it to heal a little and do a decent amount of damage. The healing and the damage are nice and appreciated, but more than anything it seems to make the opponent freak out and it breaks their momentary pressure and concentration. This allows you to sneak in a couple more thunders/arcfires.

--Use it as a spacing mix-up to mess with your opponent. Sometimes I use it JUST outside of their fsmash/ftilt (whichever is longer) range to bait them to use a mis-spaced fsmash/ftilt. Their attack misses, and you can start to read what they do AFTER the attack. You will learn how to punish their actions. Sorry, I feel like this poorly worded.

--Use it as a general mix-up! Instead of a FF LS bair, try out a FF Nosferatu once in a while! They may be caught off guard by it!

 

[Camalange]

The hitbox is just too small. I basically have to be touching my opponent to be able to hit with it, in which case there is usually a better option.

The vertical range on Nosferatu is actually very deceptive.

You can catch people on platforms above you on stages like Battlefield and Robin basically just teleports right up there.

Having that vertical range makes it a little easier to catch people out of a landed Arcfire, as that move tends to pop people up (but usually I'd punish with other moves as has been said already...)

Sometimes punishing with Nosferatu, while not always being the optimal punish, is worth it though for not only gaining health but for also just getting in your opponents head and making them feel like trash.

 

[DarkDespair5]

Does Nosferatu whiff at point blank? It has felt that way on occasion, or does it just have an odd hitbox?
Namely when I am rushing forward to try to bait them into a Nos. Sometimes it works, but occasionally it appears that it won't even if they are on top of the graphical effect.

 

[Ragna22]

So out of curiosity does Nosferatu count as a command grab? As in does it work on shielded opponents?

 

[Hong]

Does Nosferatu whiff at point blank? It has felt that way on occasion, or does it just have an odd hitbox?

The latter. The detection for Nosferatu is like an up-right rectangle, so it's much more generous vertically than it is horizontally.

So out of curiosity does Nosferatu count as a command grab? As in does it work on shielded opponents?

Yes.

 

[Ragna22]

[/QUOTE]

The latter. The detection for Nosferatu is like an up-right rectangle, so it's much more generous vertically than it is horizontally.
Yes.

Thanks, that's all I needed to know to improve my game with her cause I've seen situations where I could do that but I didn't want to risk getting punished if it didn't work.

 

[Hong]

Thanks, that's all I needed to know to improve my game with her cause I've seen situations where I could do that but I didn't want to risk getting punished if it didn't work.

Indeed. It's perfect for coming down on enemies who are not only shielding, but it works for Counters as well.

 

[SaikaGaleforce]

honestly, i usually avoid nosferatu. it is too impractical and too hard to use with any kind of consistentcy, and i can count on one hand scenarios where it is a better option than most of the rest of robin's moveset

 

[Zareidriel]

I can count on two hands the number of times I used Nosferatu effectively at the last weekly tournament ;P Seriously, it's a good move, it's just a little hard to use. There's literally no other move type besides command grabs that you can use offensively when you're aerial and the enemy is shielding. Whether you're coming down or they're above you on a platform. I just think it's silly when people discount Nosferatu because it's "so hard to use", "so slow", "impractical" etc. It's really not, it just takes a little practice. And the ability to B-reverse it is also pretty much necessary. People sit in shield all the time, for multiple seconds in a row sometimes. Easy pickings for Nos. If you're going to play one of the most technically challenging characters like Robin (maybe not technically as much as...strategically?) you should be willing to go that extra mile to learn that fourth spell. When you go 120% -> 90% and the enemy goes from 0%->15% that's a 45% damage differential. Pretty damn practical if you ask me.