How do you land shines (mostly against fox and other fastfallers)

[SSG SAX GAMER]

I have trouble landing shines against all characters but mostly the spacies. I know the laser shine but i fell like i get hit beore the laser comes out because in order to do that you must fire the laser right in their face. Also, i fell like waveshining into them is super punishable. I know that you can jump up and shine if they are on a platform above you, but other than that and shining out of shield, how else do you guys land them. Also i believe shffl shine only works if they are shielding the aerial and let go of shield right after. Also to me it seems like whenever i try to Dair and the dair connects, it knocks them too far away for the shine to connect, should i wavedash towards them in a situation like that? I also know how if they miss a tech you can wavedash up to them and shine if they don't get up in time

 

[CP Adagio]

Now that I think about it almost every one of Falcos aerials can lead to shine, but Nair and Dair are your bread and butter. Shffl Dair basically always leads to shine at low percents, and if you have some momentum Nair does also.

 

[vizayad89]

Like CP Adagio said, SH Dair/Fair like always leads to shine at low percents. If you're having trouble getting laser into shine, try delaying when you go in. Like, if you try and laser into shine and you get grabbed, try and bait out the grab and then go in for the shine.

Also, you can do a jump into immediate shine that catches people out in the neutral

 

[SAUS]

Rather than wavedashing in and shining, try just running in and shining (you have to jump before shining if you are still in dash). Wavedashing is actually quite slow. The main use is to allow you to get the type of movement when you can jump but not dash, or when you want to be able to do standing moves at some point you can wavedash to. This also applies when you do a dair and they are too far for shine to hit. You can run in and shine most of the time (dash -> jump -> shine).

If you are getting hit before your laser comes out, your opponent is just attacking you as you jump in. This means you can do a few things:
- Aerial to beat their attack rather than going for the laser. This is risky and might not work on someone like marth, but it is a solid mixup if you are jumping in at them already. Just note that getting in with a laser at that range is basically a read that they will just shield.
- Don't jump in. Jump on the spot or something, or maybe even wavedash straight down (depends on what they are reacting to). If they throw out an attack like this to stop the jump in laser, you can easily bait out attacks like this and open them up that way. The bonus is that you commit almost nothing by doing this - they have to eventually respect this option and then you can go back to jumping in with your laser.

 

[ChivalRuse]

You will land a lot of shines by shield pressuring. Just try to tech trap them by doing late aerials and bait out their buffered roll/shine oos/shieldgrab.

Dair combos into shine usually. The times when it doesn't, usually u-tilt/d-tilt can be substituted depending on which side of you the opponent ends up on after the dair hits them.

 

[SSG SAX GAMER]

Rather than wavedashing in and shining, try just running in and shining (you have to jump before shining if you are still in dash). Wavedashing is actually quite slow. The main use is to allow you to get the type of movement when you can jump but not dash, or when you want to be able to do standing moves at some point you can wavedash to. This also applies when you do a dair and they are too far for shine to hit. You can run in and shine most of the time (dash -> jump -> shine).

If you are getting hit before your laser comes out, your opponent is just attacking you as you jump in. This means you can do a few things:
- Aerial to beat their attack rather than going for the laser. This is risky and might not work on someone like marth, but it is a solid mixup if you are jumping in at them already. Just note that getting in with a laser at that range is basically a read that they will just shield.
- Don't jump in. Jump on the spot or something, or maybe even wavedash straight down (depends on what they are reacting to). If they throw out an attack like this to stop the jump in laser, you can easily bait out attacks like this and open them up that way. The bonus is that you commit almost nothing by doing this - they have to eventually respect this option and then you can go back to jumping in with your laser.

Really that works? I've always been too afraid to do that because I feel like to land falco's shine you must be right in their face, so i always think that they just do a jab or almost anything and get me

 

[SAUS]

Really that works? I've always been too afraid to do that because I feel like to land falco's shine you must be right in their face, so i always think that they just do a jab or almost anything and get me

Which part are you asking about?

Anyway, if you run at them and they throw out attacks, then you now have a way to open them up. The game is too complex for one simple answer, but basically, if they don't stop you from running in, you can just run up and shine or maybe shine grab if they shield. If they throw out attacks to protect themselves, then you can do things like just dash dance instead of going all the way in and then get an easy punish. Their only other main option is to move back, but that has the limit of stage, so you win in that case already (so long as you don't run all the way into something like jump away + attack).

 

[`Rival]

I land my shines in a few ways.

1. Catching their jump to platforms. If they like to jump to a platform after getting hit by a laser or when it looks like I'm going to dash forward, I pin them under a platform and then intercept them when they are moving to the platform. ppmd does this a lot

2. catching them running forward (they are attempting to overshoot) with wavedash back ---> shine. if you make it look like you are playing really defensively by dashing back or lasering in place, sometimes your opponent will want to catch by quickly running at you and attacking. sometimes they'll recognize the situations when i dash back and then they quickly run at me, leaving themselves vulnerable for a few moments. While they are running at me, that's when I quickly wavedash back and shine them or even just dash at them-->jc shine.

3. catching their roll. In certain situations if they like to roll and i'm within range, I try to capitalize with a shine. this may be after they are pinned and pressured at the ledge, if i dash a certain way etc.

4. Whiff punishing aerials. In situations where fastfallers jump forward with an aerial, if the spacing is right, you can wavedash back into them and shine before they even finish their attack animation.

5. Aerial -->shine. Against fastfallers I don't like this method before the knockdown percents, because it becomes a mixup. You can catch them with nair if they jump. You can catch them with dair if they stay on the ground. Make the wrong call and they can turn it around with a counterattack.

 

[Audos]

There are a lot of ways to shine in neutral, depending on your playstyle you will find them in different ways. The most common is with shffle ariels. If you use your dair at really low percents then make sure you hit them with it low enough to avoid them CCing you. You could also try to land one while shield pressuring, but that is a way bigger flowchart to consider. I'd recommend checking out the shield pressuring stuff on the forums, they'll have a lot of information on what you can do against different OOS options, and ways you can get them in their shield more. I personally like to find places where I think my opponent won't try and throw out a hitbox, then shine them. Like if they are cornered and they try to jump over you to come back to center stage. If you use a lot of RSHL, or you do a lot of other retreating options, they will usually overshoot their move. You can snuff their approach early as a mixup with whatever you want, including a shine.

Landing raw shines aren't usually easy against a good player, so don't get discouraged. If you are struggling just think of situations the opponent used a move that left time for you to interrupt (like a move with a lot of start up, an empty approach, how they roll) and think of how you conditioned them to think those options would work so you could get those same openings later. Every failed opportunity is a chance to condition the opponent, that's how hustlers do it! :D

 

[Audos]

5. Aerial -->shine. Against fastfallers I don't like this method before the knockdown percents, because it becomes a mixup. You can catch them with nair if they jump. You can catch them with dair if they stay on the ground. Make the wrong call and they can turn it around with a counterattack.

I don't think it is really a true mix up. You have more options than just nair and dair, not to mention the risk reward for the opponent is heavily skewed against them most of the time. Your options usually lead to shine and theirs is usually a stray hit unless you are at knockdown percents. You can always change up the way you drift as you jump at them to make it hard for them to react to when you will and won't commit. I like to shine over them and waveland on platforms sometimes, too.