How do you feel?

[Ander]

Alright, it's been a while since Project M 3.6 came out, and I wanted to know what are your feelings now about Ice Climbers. We have a better Nana's AI, and Phresh has been doing some amazing stuff with the duo. Still, I feel Nana is... Lacking. Flawed. She suicides a lot. That's why I'm asking here, is that me or I just need to git gud?

 

[ilysm]

OK, this is actually a topic I've been meaning to bring up at some point, since I feel like it's by far the most common complaint. People say Nana's too stupid, people say Nana dies a lot; I don't have that happening often to me. Could you describe some of the situations where this is happening?

 

[Ander]

The short answer to my question is: yes, I have to git gud lol. I'm not good at all so maybe it's just me, but I find that if you split the duo Nana is basically dead. Even worse if she's sent offstage... If I can't reach her, she up-bs and... Dies. She suicides basically lol. Also, I can't get anything from a grab, but I know that's because I suck.

But really, I was just curious as you. Since I'm trash, I really wanted to know what do ICs' mains think about Nana's AI in 3.6.

 

[ilysm]

Well, that could be a lot of things working together at once, but you're right: Nana's up-b is tricky to work around. A common strategy is to try and wait it out; see if she up-b's, then make your decision from there. You can save her with up-b teleport before the up-b starts and after the animation is over. Get a feel for how far the teleport range goes. If you practice and stay mindful about it, you'll start to get a feel for whether she's going to up-b or not. If they send her too far away for her to come back with up-b, they killed her. That's less of Nana's problem and more of a fair-and-square advantage for your opponent. Also be aware that when Nana isn't in helpless, it's possible to save her with side-b as well as up-b at close distances. A good synced side-b will put you back onstage pretty much no matter how far down you are, and if she does up-b at a bad time and ruin it, a solo side-b can still mean a living Popo if you mash well. What do I think of Nana's 3.6 AI? It honestly doesn't bother me as much as it seems to bother a lot of people. And by 'a lot of people' I do mean good Ice Climbers players, better and more experienced than me. Maybe that means my opponents aren't pressing their advantage well enough, or I'm lucky, or I just have a better feel for this sort of thing than most (the last one is the least likely tbh). Whatever the case, I personally think the AI is fine. It's far better than it was in Melee and I really don't see its occasional idiosyncrasies as one of the things holding the character back.

As far as getting split up goes, not getting split up can be hard. Icies get punished super hard for this reason; not because they get combo'd easily, but because when they get split up they're severely weakened. Be smart about how you pursue your opponent when Nana is away. Keep an eye on what patterns they exhibit when focusing Nana and try to disrupt them. You can either threaten them with powerful hitboxes to scare them or poke at them with little weak hitboxes to interrupt their attacks and bother them until they leave Nana alone. Don't be afraid to let Nana come back onstage on her own--she can often make it back from farther than you'd expect. And above all, try not to let your opponent get in to begin with, but of course we all work on that.

Hope this helped!

 

[Ander]

...Wow, what a detailed answer. You should write a guide.

"How to not make your dear sister die"

So the key is timing, right? And understanding how Nana and your opponent behave. Urgh, it seems much easier on paper than in practice... I'll try then, thanks!

However, I'm really surprised about your opinion of Nana's AI being better than Melee. It's really brave, from a certain point of view. I mean, if people keeps complaining about PM's Icies there must be a reason, right? And Brawl isn't all that played after all... Why do you find Melee's Nana messier?

 

[ilysm]

Haha, thanks! I love talking about Icies (unless that was sarcasm in which case sorry, some of this stuff is hard to explain).

The core of what I'm saying is give her space and pay close attention, it'll get more familiar as time goes on. But yeah, it is super hard. It's really difficult to truly keep track of both Nana and Popo. I feel ya there.

Melee's Nana has a few more areas where she's too unpredictable for my tastes (throws, pummels, ledge options, etc). Plus, I find her behaving strangely more often in Melee than I do in PM (chilling out on platforms instead of chasing me, standing still at weird times, taunting occasionally, and even walking offstage for no reason). Anything that makes her more consistent and predictable is usually strictly better in my view, because it's easier to learn how to take care of her.

 

[Ander]

Sarcasm? No, at all! I find your mini-guide very helpful! And if you like talking about Icies, then you could write your own guide for real (?), since you seem pretty confident in Nana's behavior. It seems that a lot of people are bothered by that.
(But yes, the title was a joke, but it could fit because you're basically explaining how to not let Nana die LOL).

Sometimes Melee's Nana is dumb, but other times she is amazing, thanks to the unpredictability you were talking about. GRSmash uploaded "Top 15 Nana's shenanigans", have you seen it? Ahahahahah

Back to PM and about chilling, sometimes when she's alone Nana throws an Ice Shot with no particular reason. How annoying.
Just a thought I had in mind lol.

Do you find anything that you feel is wrong and would like to fix? Although you said they're fine, just for curiosity. Is there anything that bothers/irritates/etc you?

 

[ilysm]

Oh, man, I'm flattered, but I don't understand her nuances nearly well enough to do a guide lol. I'm just more comfortable with it, if that makes any sense. A huge part of it is that even before development shut down, Hylian announced the character was pretty much finished and there were no more changes planned for them. I love the character a lot, so right about then I got used to the idea that we'd never get another patch that affected Icies. So even when it was announced that 3.6 would be the last patch, I wasn't too concerned over Icies. Since that happened I've really just been committed to accepting the character as they are, flaws and all. I'm getting really good at laughing dumb Nana stuff off because hey, I know what I signed up for.

So, no. I really wouldn't change anything about the way they are, period. That's just kinda how I am. A lot of people have their own complaints about Nana's AI and would probably agree with you on some proposed changes, but that sort of discussion happens more in the discord nowadays (like most discussion about PM, sigh), which I can link you to if you like.

And Nana does periodically do attacks like that when she's AI controlled, which they way I see it can be irritating or beneficial. It's a coin toss that I try to be prepared to accept. Like that GRSmash video, yeah. Actually, just the other night something amazing like that happened. I was sparring against a Falcon player, and we were on the Smashville platform above the blast zone. He had one stock left, I had two. He killed me off the top, but only hit Popo. When he dropped through the platform, Nana dropped with him and spiked him and won me the game. ^_^

 

[Ander]

Eheh, it's amazing when Nana is that intelligent. Just thinking about CPU's AI... I mean, it's a BIG thing, programming how a pg behaves when controlled by the game must be VERY difficult. So, having a character that coops with you actions is WOW. It's difficult to explain, it's a thing I just noticed and admire with no particular reason (just like "Grr, why does Nana throw random Ice Shots") lol

Yo, quick consideration. What about wobbling? I find it cancerous, but I bet a lot of people would be happy if it was in the game. More Melee players could come ahahahahah

Discord group? Yes, I'm interested tbh, but I really don't get why can't we discuss here. I mean, this thread was made for DISCUSSING, but you were the only one to care about it. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate it! But the main point is that people are lazy to check and talk in a thread. It is strange, and a bit sad, because I love discussing :/
Not being proposal in finding help in the community just lets the game die more and more every day. I find this very disappointing... Like no one even cares any more.

 

[ilysm]

Re: Wobbling, the wobbling debate is a really tired one that I don't always see the point of. I have no problem with wobbling for many reasons. While it isn't in this game, PM Icies have plenty of infinites, pseudo-infinites, and guaranteed kill setups; they're just a different character than Melee Icies, so the point is kind of moot. I've had this discussion a million times in both the Melee Discord and the PM discord because it's easier to converse there. If you're truly interested in my opinion specifically you can message me there (since on Smashboards I'd probably just try to cover all bases and make a wall of text that would be a waste of time and energy especially because it likely wouldn't be useful to you), but it's really all just opinion stuff and honestly I'm not sure how helpful it is.

Re: Discord, I understand your feelings on that, but the majority of the PM community have migrated to Discord because it's actually way more efficient for real discussion. You typically get feedback and an exchange of ideas in a quicker and more organic way that's easier to participate in on all sides. Because of that, people don't really check the Icies boards for dicussion anymore, because Discord is way easier and more efficient for those things. I mean, Discord has its problems (it can be harder for new members to find than Smashboards and it's not great for archiving information long-term), but those problems have solutions (we just need to publicize Smashcords.com better, and we really need to get better at using Smashboards to archive long-term info). Also, I think the migration to Discord doesn't in any way mean the community is letting the game "die more and more every day". I actually feel like Discord is helping the community in its current growth phase. I've had more practical discussions and learned more about the game from Discord than I ever could have from this site, because it's a lot more 'real' discussion with other players. It's pretty awesome for that. Smashboards still has its uses for archiving guides, frame data, tech, and things like that, but Discord is amazing for discussing matchups, strategies, meta, and a lot of just the character points you seem to be interested in like the Nana AI quirks and the wobbling thing. Basically, in an ideal world, Discord would be where you'd go to discuss Nana with people, and then Smashboards would be where you'd go once you had concrete info to compile into an infosheet on Nana's AI. That's the way I envision it, anyway.

Here's the Project M Icies discord, and here's a link to a site that archives links to all the Melee, Smash 4, and Project M character discords (plus a whole bunch of other Smash-related community Discord servers) if you want to check out more of them. Smashcords is pretty great in a world where nobody seems to know where to find character Discord links, but nobody seems to know about it so tell your friends lol.

See you around!

 

[HiroProtagonist]

old thread but was doing some smashboards mining and saw this. I absolutely adore this character. Every single time I play I get to see something I've never seen before. They have such unbelievable depth to their techniques, in their edgeguarding options, in their punish game, and in their neutral. PM ICs are simply my favorite character in any smash game, by far. I don't think I could ever get bored of playing them and their complexity and many mysteries are alluring to me. I find myself fascinated by even their most niche options and mechanics. I don't think I'll ever go back to any other character.

 

[bboss]

This character still has some unfortunate flaws and some bad MUs (Snake, Fox, Tink, Samus), but overall is a decent character. The meta will progress and change the character as time goes on.