How do I neutral?

[cadentoob]

I don't think I'm grasping what things I should be looking for to be able to land a hit. I understand move priority can play into it a lot of times as it makes the difference of who gets to start the combo and who doesn't. However, most big and disjointed moves have too much startup to be able to beat out a fast yet small move on reaction to seeing them come out as they are already over by then. I also don't understand counterplay to excessive grabbing on approach since it comes out way too fast to react to and if i jump preemptively it feels like they can react to that and just hit me for it where I can't do any such thing about the grab. Is this all just a matter of learning what moves are commonly used from an opponent in any given matchup and finding the solution to each one of them? Because I honestly don't see a direct solution to grab. Additionally, I really don't get how to play against CC other than grab (doesn't matter what character I'm playing) and I don't understand how to apply it myself in neutral if I'm supposed to be moving all the time (which I don't understand the true purpose of either). Pretty much every top player I've heard elaborate on the topic of neutral makes it sound like they don't really know the answers to stuff and kind of just do the right thing instinctively (probably me just taking generalizations too far but I never hear direct solutions to common things like a Marth D-tilt). I'm not saying a want a gigantic list of specific scenarios and counters to them and so on, just big things I should be looking for as a beginner because I have no clue.

 

[Phoenix502]

well, first things first, it would certainly help folks understand what you're talking about if you divided some of that text into more than one paragraph so that it's easier to follow along...

while I'm not necessarily good enough in Melee specifically to really answer the more specialized questions, namely beating grab centric playstyles, CC, and all that... I have seen my fair share of videos to put together my own impressions about neutral, and probably my best way to look at it would be through something like chess, at least when understanding the concept.

imagine the neutral game as a turn where no pieces are taken. you and your opponent can move their own pieces around every turn, but sooner or later, someone's going to have to take a piece. when someone takes a piece, that's a first attack being thrown, if you can't take the piece back right away with one of your own, then they've landed a hit on your options and you couldn't hit back. but if you do take their piece, and they move their pieces to avoid losing another one, you've got two options, you can press your advantage, and try to take more pieces until checkmate... OR... you can rearrange your own pieces and improve your position in case they had a trap somewhere.

now to put this into Smash in general (since I mainly play Smash 4 and sometimes PM), Neutral is where nobody's landed the first hit. both of you WANT to land that first hit, but if you don't want to be punished, you need to be certain that your attack, whatever it is, is going to land. if you land the hit, they can't act immediately and you have two options: do you try to start a combo/techchase, at the risk of getting punished for messing it up somewhere, or do you let them land and be safe until they get back up?

there's a reason the top players (or really, ANYONE) don't really give a consistent answer, it's because there's a lot of small things that can happen in neutral that is better learned through experience. Among those small things is whether or not your opponent can adapt to what you're doing. do they remember what you hit them with and prepare for it next time, or do they get hit again. as much as people dislike him for his being completely contrary to the typical pace of a Melee match, I feel Hungrybox is a good example of someone to watch when learning the neutral, because playing Puff and getting high placement requires waiting for an opening that he can capitalize on with her moveset, and from what i can see, that takes a LOT of patience.

 

[cadentoob]

I guess I'm just not capable of picking up useful stuff through experience in this game, it simply doesn't feel intuitive to me. Oh well

 

[Phoenix502]

I guess I'm just not capable of picking up useful stuff through experience in this game, it simply doesn't feel intuitive to me. Oh well

if you keep putting yourself down like that, then you're creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

this sort of experience isn't something a player can develop overnight, or even within the span of a few months... this is more something that will take years to perfect, and even then, because there's so many things to it, there's always something new to learn. I'm sure even top Smash 4 players like ZeRo or even the great Melee Gods learn something new, no matter how small it is.

even the top players will have likely spent years of dedication to get to where they are now. some folks develop at different paces, sure... but keep trying, you'll get there with enough work!

[this video is more food for thought, if nothing else, and while the subject matter mainly focuses on Street Fighter and the FGC, this sort of material could be used for Smash with a little thought.

Analysis: Getting Better at Fighting Games]

 

[cadentoob]

I guess this game just doesn't click for me like other fighters do, I was hoping I'd find some new video that elaborated on some neutral stuff but all of the ones I've seen including that one don't do me any good unfortunately.

Perhaps just some help on applying crouch cancel to my game would help a lot.

 

[Jackson]

I understand what you're saying completely, neutral is hard and unintuitive for me as well (I'm gotten as far as I have because of punish game, which you can practice by yourself effectively). I talked to Llod recently, and something that we talked about is mapping out a situation, considering both character's options and what beats what once we choose something. By thinking about this you can realize effective options and break it down into a rock paper scissors-esque situation that can work for you.


For example, I'll take some options with Sheik vs. Marth. He technically has to approach me because I have needles and he has no projectile. Let's think of what he can do and what I can do to beat it.

If Marth runs up and shields, I can beat it by grabbing or set up pressure with well timed aerials (autocancel fair, Low L canceled Fair/Nair, etc.) That will beat my tilts though.

If he runs up and down tilts, that will beat most of my ground options, but I can jump above it and Fair him.

If he short hop fairs, that will beat my aerials, but it loses to crouch cancel, shield, dash attack.

If he runs up and grabs, it beats my shield but loses to me attacking or dashing back.

If he dashes forward and then away (dash dance), I can beat it with overshoot dash attack or boost grab, or simply needle him.

Obviously we each have more options than these but these are common, "good" moves. My point is to notice that certain choices beat other choices. Even if you don't always pick the right choice (very hard), if you mix up your choices at the very least, they can't win rock paper scissors every time. If they abuse something over and over (run up grab against you), they're picking paper every time. I know it's hard to break this down in game (I can't really do it yet either), think of it outside. What beats grab? Spotdodge, jump, attack, etc. What loses to it? Shield and empty movement, or whiffed moves. If they pick paper everytime start picking scissors every time (jump aerial in this case works well) until they mix it up.

In my case against Llod's Fox, he noticed that I was spamming boost grab at him to start tech chases, and he quickly started ripping that option to shreds with Fox's drill shine.

Just think of how options play out against each other and you might make some progress. Neutral is hard, don't beat yourself up about it.

 

[cadentoob]

Thank you, I can see that a lot of options that I have thought of as use all the time/as much as possible like crouch cancel are more for dealing with certain moves that you predict to come at you.

Going through each of the top 8's good moves in their kit (the most used or best hitbox ones) and finding counterplay to each of them will surely be enough of a starting point to playing in a way with active thinking.