How Do I Keep Stage Control and Be Aggressive with Slow Air Speed?

[AndrewtheAmericanDude]

Hey I use Pit and I've been noticing that I play too passively or afraid when I'm in a hard competitive environment. Against a friend and his fellow mid tier I am pretty aggressive but that might just be because I'm comfortable in that scenario but not in general experience vs. random good players. But how do I chase down without overextending while Pit moves so slowly in the air? Foxes just jump in my face and blitz everywhere while I'm slowly landing. But there must be something I can do.

A friend has suggested empty hopping as a good safe movement option but has since retracted that statement after considering Pit airspeed more. I do tend to jump a lot. Occasionally I do a walk back punish grounded or some dash dance stuff but I jump mostly. If these are my character's attributes, should I just be pressing stage control while walking? Seems tough. Recently at my local I got washed by failing to pressure a ZSS and then I went to Lylat on game 2. I actually won that round because with that stage I could corner him far more easily than on PS2 and Battlefield (also I noticed my jab is a good antiair for all these people just jumping in my face). But then I lost on the aforementioned Battlefield. So my question is how do I corner people elsewhere on more traditional stages?

I'm open to suggestions. I do notice that i make several unnecessary dash backs when pressing forward when I could just straightforward punish quicker sometimes. Maybe that's a part of it. I haven't made a thread here in this section so I hope this is the appropriate spot for this, thanks.

 

[J.B.]

Unless you have the clear speed advantage, I would actually say it's bad to be aggressive from the gate with players you aren't familiar with. Pit isn't the most lag-less char in the game and that **** will get you punished, as I'm sure you've seen already. I played a ZSS at locals recently too, ironically, and didn't feel comfortable putting on hard pressure until the second stock. Worked out for the better. By then I'd caught on to his attack pattern and that he wasn't really mixing options up. I had to teach myself to quit abusing dash backs. Better players notice that pattern right away. I've switched to mostly trying to draw in faster characters with Silver Bow, seeing how they approach, and then abusing aerials (mainly nair since it has so many uses) and d-throw. I've stopped doing the dash back entirely unless I see a pattern with them doing things like landing aerials, predictable smash attacks, etc. and I don't think I'll be able to punish it out of shield fast enough; or if I think the opponents is bland enough that it feels safe to condition them.

Fox specifically, I don't think we're ever going to win against in a disadvantage (they've gotten in your face and started smacking you with ****). When I play Foxes or others chars with quick aerials that out-priority mine, I just retreat/sometimes go off stage and then try to reset neutral. I personally don't have any problems beating up Fox once I'm back on the ground. Laser fire generally can't be stopped before an arrow hits. N-air out of shield will catch a lot esp. sloppy aerials. D-tilt to catch ground approaches is good too.

But basically, what works for me personally is not being majorly aggressive, except against slow chars or predictable players, unless I'm in advantage state. After that, I n-air the hell out of them, go for grabs where it makes sense, and use arrows to keep them busy if I can't follow-up right away.

 

[AndrewtheAmericanDude]

Unless you have the clear speed advantage, I would actually say it's bad to be aggressive from the gate with players you aren't familiar with. Pit isn't the most lag-less char in the game and that **** will get you punished, as I'm sure you've seen already. I played a ZSS at locals recently too, ironically, and didn't feel comfortable putting on hard pressure until the second stock. Worked out for the better. By then I'd caught on to his attack pattern and that he wasn't really mixing options up. I had to teach myself to quit abusing dash backs. Better players notice that pattern right away. I've switched to mostly trying to draw in faster characters with Silver Bow, seeing how they approach, and then abusing aerials (mainly nair since it has so many uses) and d-throw. I've stopped doing the dash back entirely unless I see a pattern with them doing things like landing aerials, predictable smash attacks, etc. and I don't think I'll be able to punish it out of shield fast enough; or if I think the opponents is bland enough that it feels safe to condition them.

Fox specifically, I don't think we're ever going to win against in a disadvantage (they've gotten in your face and started smacking you with ****). When I play Foxes or others chars with quick aerials that out-priority mine, I just retreat/sometimes go off stage and then try to reset neutral. I personally don't have any problems beating up Fox once I'm back on the ground. Laser fire generally can't be stopped before an arrow hits. N-air out of shield will catch a lot esp. sloppy aerials. D-tilt to catch ground approaches is good too.

But basically, what works for me personally is not being majorly aggressive, except against slow chars or predictable players, unless I'm in advantage state. After that, I n-air the hell out of them, go for grabs where it makes sense, and use arrows to keep them busy if I can't follow-up right away.

I greatly appreciate the specialized input. I'll ask some simple questions to help me process the notion

So when you arrow, do you just short hop arrow from a distance? I sometimes retreat to do that but then they press stage control and I get immediately put in disadvantage. And then I think of Leffen talking about people over prioritizing projectiles and think "why did I do that?" Sometimes I can do it well when I can make the opponent desperate and pick away at them. But most of the time when I don't have a lead I don't know the frame of mind here.

So if you don't dash back what's your primary mobility choices or are you fox trotting dtilt? Sh nair is a great one and is very versatile, but do you lot of walking back for footsies? Is it safe to just stick to walking with all these fast guys?

I've retreated sometimes, like against a Zelda to try to pressure them but then I just got killed exceedingly early from her high killpower and being closer to the blast zone. The ZSS said I just let him dictate where we went and got pushed around and I couldn't really reach.

So I guess the answer is a more slow, methodical, kind of stand your ground and not let them dictate the pace-kind of approach?

Hope the questions aren't too much lol I just learn through outlines

 

[J.B.]

I greatly appreciate the specialized input. I'll ask some simple questions to help me process the notion

So when you arrow, do you just short hop arrow from a distance? I sometimes retreat to do that but then they press stage control and I get immediately put in disadvantage. And then I think of Leffen talking about people over prioritizing projectiles and think "why did I do that?" Sometimes I can do it well when I can make the opponent desperate and pick away at them. But most of the time when I don't have a lead I don't know the frame of mind here.

So if you don't dash back what's your primary mobility choices or are you fox trotting dtilt? Sh nair is a great one and is very versatile, but do you lot of walking back for footsies? Is it safe to just stick to walking with all these fast guys?

I've retreated sometimes, like against a Zelda to try to pressure them but then I just got killed exceedingly early from her high killpower and being closer to the blast zone. The ZSS said I just let him dictate where we went and got pushed around and I couldn't really reach.

So I guess the answer is a more slow, methodical, kind of stand your ground and not let them dictate the pace-kind of approach?

Hope the questions aren't too much lol I just learn through outlines

I shorthop arrow with Dark Pit all the time since his arrows don't have as much flexibility. With Pit I do when I'm trying to get under the ledge since if you don't jump, trying to to turn the angle sharp enough to hit someone by the stage will just hit the ground instead. Retreating to shoot an arrow was a bad habit (IMO) that I took some time to get rid of. Arrows from a distance to onstage targets I use mainly to put a hitbox out there while I'm getting closer, or they're getting closer to me. If they're close enough to punish an arrow, I just don't use it. Every now and then I'll get a player who's good but will keep running into the arrows in neutral, but usually they're not reliable for me in getting the advantage.

I fox-trot a lot once distance starts closing. If I feel comfortable approaching or my opponent is being aggressive because they just got stocked or are tired of arrows, that's when I start looking for something to punish with shield->n-air/jab, grab, or d-tilt. So, I'm making sure I'm close enough to respond when there's an opening, and fox-trotting is safe for making a quick adjustment. I fox-trot and shield a lot when distance is closing, so I probably should mix that up. Like I said, I do dash back sometimes, but usually just when I've got a read.

Tbh, Zelda has given me some issues. There's a guy out here ABZ that plays her and it's always a rough set because phantom from a distance and Naryu's eradicates arrows, and sometimes I'm not fast enough to punish her when up close since Naryu got buffed to have even less startup this time around. Farore's OoS makes you have to be super careful with offense, and as with all teleporters, edge-guarding is more complicated. Then there's the annoying disjoints... I'll get back to you when I figure that MU out. :-/


Stand-your-ground I like. He's not Olimar so it's not like you can just retreat and still be able to be annoying for the entire match. I wouldn't say "slow," but just taking my time with neutral specifically. I'm not confident enough in his speed and the range and priority of his CQC moves to run people down from the gate instead of letting people come in and snapping and latching like a russell viper.

 

[AndrewtheAmericanDude]

I shorthop arrow with Dark Pit all the time since his arrows don't have as much flexibility. With Pit I do when I'm trying to get under the ledge since if you don't jump, trying to to turn the angle sharp enough to hit someone by the stage will just hit the ground instead. Retreating to shoot an arrow was a bad habit (IMO) that I took some time to get rid of. Arrows from a distance to onstage targets I use mainly to put a hitbox out there while I'm getting closer, or they're getting closer to me. If they're close enough to punish an arrow, I just don't use it. Every now and then I'll get a player who's good but will keep running into the arrows in neutral, but usually they're not reliable for me in getting the advantage.

I fox-trot a lot once distance starts closing. If I feel comfortable approaching or my opponent is being aggressive because they just got stocked or are tired of arrows, that's when I start looking for something to punish with shield->n-air/jab, grab, or d-tilt. So, I'm making sure I'm close enough to respond when there's an opening, and fox-trotting is safe for making a quick adjustment. I fox-trot and shield a lot when distance is closing, so I probably should mix that up. Like I said, I do dash back sometimes, but usually just when I've got a read.

Tbh, Zelda has given me some issues. There's a guy out here ABZ that plays her and it's always a rough set because phantom from a distance and Naryu's eradicates arrows, and sometimes I'm not fast enough to punish her when up close since Naryu got buffed to have even less startup this time around. Farore's OoS makes you have to be super careful with offense, and as with all teleporters, edge-guarding is more complicated. Then there's the annoying disjoints... I'll get back to you when I figure that MU out. :-/


Stand-your-ground I like. He's not Olimar so it's not like you can just retreat and still be able to be annoying for the entire match. I wouldn't say "slow," but just taking my time with neutral specifically. I'm not confident enough in his speed and the range and priority of his CQC moves to run people down from the gate instead of letting people come in and snapping and latching like a russell viper.

Thank you for your thorough response. Yeah I took ur advice about not needing to rush in so I stopped jumping as much and only do that when I'm going in for a nair or fair now basically (maybe a dair u get it). So I tried foxtrotting a bunch. Also instead of retreating to do it really far away or short hopping with it I just used it like a much weaker Wolf laser to stand my ground and dictate neutral more. Sometimes just shooting a volley. I also recognized that while I love to grab I'm not doing it nearly enough, it's so pivotal. One time I was at a stock deficit at this guy's Roy in a friendly and I slowed down the pace and arrowed him a bunch to condition to be more susceptible to grabs and then I made the comeback without taking a percent. Feels like I'm finally learning the strengths of this character, grounded approaches, grabs, and arrows to stand ur ground not play evasive with.

So I learned that I don't always need to hold forward I just have to be smarter about it and use my tools. Not play him like I'm Fox or something. I think a short back up for arrows can sometimes be good circumstantially to condition people.

So yeah I hope to continue this approach I look forward to my next tourney. I appreciate it. Viper's a good way to put it lol

In a recent set against Marss at Momocon Nairo used dash attack a bunch to cover the ground. Usually dtilt is what I think of there. Do u think there's any merit to using dash attack so frequently instead of sparingly? Maybe for consistent challenging I guess.

 

[J.B.]

They way you described it makes it sounds like you've refined your fundamentals more than anything. :-)

I think his dash attack is pretty great. The knockback has been increased from Smash 4 so it's good to use for a ground punish if you don't think you can get an F-smash in time. Also, F-throw can combo into it at low percents. Does 20-something. I don't remember. I bout jumped through the roof watching Nairo play. I think he was just trying to keep Marss from being able to adjust to his character, but I don't care. His DP is still pretty damn good even though he hasn't taken the char seriously since what? 2015?

I wish I was that good at reading where I could just dash up, defend, and then choose the best OoS option in a split second. There were a handful of places where you could tell he was thinking the right response but just didn't space appropriately. I hope he refines that DP a little more because you can tell that beast from the young Smash 4 days is still there.

 

[Vistra31]

How do you stay aggressive? Push those inputs faster. Know the matchup. Fox can't do anything against block. Zone zoners back with arrows and/or hold shield at mid range. If there's platforms use uair and nair a lot. Put those characters in disadvantage and abuse it. Name a character with multiple jumps and good air speed. Monado Kirby? You're expecting too much from your character.