How do I deal with WiFi Spotdodge Abusers? A little salty rn...

[YaraNooki]

For those who don’t know, all spotdodges start on frame 3 and have intangibility up to frame 16-18 depending on the character. However, the endlag of all spotdodges can now be canceled with any grounded attack, reducing the endlag by up to 5 frames. Consequently, perfectly waiting out a spotdodge gives you only +4 frames over your opponent, compared to the +9 frames from Smash 4. When you factor in online latency forcing everyone to buffer inputs in advance, it’s so much harder to punish a spotdodge consistently compared to a roll or air dodge in this game.

The Smash 4 answer to spotdodges was 1) use multihit moves and 2) charge a smash attack and smack them right as their spotdodge ends. However, not all characters have viable multihit moves in this situation (with even fewer having multi-hit kill moves), and the 5 frame endlag cancelling feature sharply limits the hard punish window. “I’m sorry, did you hold that F-Smash 1/20th of a second too long? I’m afraid you’re going to eat this Jab/F-Tilt now.”

The fact that I can’t hard punish spotdodge reads online anymore is driving me a little crazy. Sure, I can mash a multi-hit jab and get a little bit of percent, but without a move like Lucina’s Dancing Blade or Cloud’s F-Smash I can’t end the stock even though I know exactly what my opponent is going to do. Am I just supposed to accept that I can’t kill a spotdodging opponent?

P.S. It’s worth mentioning that the “abusers” I’m talking about aren’t necssarily spamming the move. They are simply people who throw the move out in disadvantage and, due to latency, endlag cancelling, and my own lack of awareness, I end up attacking into the spotdodge and getting punished, clanging with their counter jab/f-tilt because I was too late, or eating their attack because I was too late. It sucks.

Really hoping this is just a case of “practice and git guud,” because right now I don’t have an answer for a basic defensive mechanic. Help appreciated.

Edit: My Robin and my Roy would both benefit from figuring this out, but it’s my Mario that needs it the most. I’m decent at reading DI and tend to get a lot off of grabs (standard Mario stuff), so I get a lot of people buffering rolls and spotdodges once I get in. Trying to connect Mario’s 2 frame F-Smash sweetspot with the vulnerability window after a spotdodge since it’s Mario’s hardest punish (kills at 70% from ledge), but getting inconsistent results.

 

[Predatoria]

So spot dodging online = abuse?

Do you consider it dishonorable or something to use spot dodging online, just because, as is the case with literally every other mechanic in-game, it is influenced by latency?

What about smash attack abusers, landing lag abusers, grab abusers, or abusers of literally any other move in-game which behaves differently due to playing online.

I suppose just playing offline would shelter one from any possibility of this abuse.

 

[Sean²]

Really hoping this is just a case of “practice and git guud,” because right now I don’t have an answer for a basic defensive mechanic. Help appreciated.

You just answered your own question.

Bait out the spotdodge, punish the whiff. Space yourself outside their attack range. If they whiff a spotdodge outside of attack range, something like 90% of the time players are going to shield again expecting a hit. You might be able to go in for a grab instead here. If you think they're going to roll away, fire off a projectile or something. There are a myriad of possibilities, all boiling down to reading their habits.

Why do you need to kill them off the spotdodge read? Take what damage you can get, press yourself into advantage, take the stock if you can, then go about your day.

 

[YaraNooki]

So spot dodging online = abuse?

Do you consider it dishonorable or something to use spot dodging online, just because, as is the case with literally every other mechanic in-game, it is influenced by latency?

What about smash attack abusers, landing lag abusers, grab abusers, or abusers of literally any other move in-game which behaves differently due to playing online.

I suppose just playing offline would shelter one from any possibility of this abuse.

What? “Dishonorable?” xD. What are you on about?

I can smell the “anything can be abused, dumbass” subtext behind your post, but that simply isn’t true and you probably know that. Mechanics that require both a tight window and a read (like parrying) are much more consistent offline than online, and certain strategies (like the one I described) are significantly harder to punish online than not. Everything you’ve described has a significantly more endlag than spotdodging and can be punished with a bait and/or spacing. Yes, everything is affected by latency, but not to the same degree.

My goal is to consistently punish a spotdodge read with a smash attack like I used to, and I’m asking for help because I’m struggling with the tightened punish window.

It seems like you read the OP title, got upset, and posted your feelings. I’m sorry for ruffling you, but this isn’t that type of thread.

You just answered your own question.

Bait out the spotdodge, punish the whiff. Space yourself outside their attack range. If they whiff a spotdodge outside of attack range, something like 90% of the time players are going to shield again expecting a hit. You might be able to go in for a grab instead here. If you think they're going to roll away, fire off a projectile or something. There are a myriad of possibilities, all boiling down to reading their habits.

Why do you need to kill them off the spotdodge read? Take what damage you can get, press yourself into advantage, take the stock if you can, then go about your day.

The whole point of the thread is that I can’t punish a whiffed spotdodge as consistently as I used to and I’m trying to figure out methods of doing so.

Shielding and rolling I can deal with as usual; it’s the faster attacks (specifically the endlag cancelling) that I’m struggling with. Consider a standard character with a frame 4 jab and a 25 frame spotdodge. If that character shields (3 frames) and can’t use attack buffer meaning they have the full spotdodge endlag (10 frames), that means that they have 13 frames of vulnerability after their 12 frames of intangibility. More importantly, the enemy is stuck in shield, meaning I’ll generally be safe with proper spacing and/or crossups even if I miss the timing. Compare this to if the character jabs (4 frames) and consequently gains the endlag cancel (-5 frames), resulting in only a 9 frame punish window and a hit box that will put me in disadvantage. This window becomes even smaller against characters with faster attacks (ex: Mario and Ike have frame 2 jabs).

Hard punishing a spotdodge is an essential smash skill, especially against zoners who you need to corner, read, and kill before they bleed you out in neutral. If I notice my opponent has a spotsdodging habit but don’t feel I have a strong enough read, I’ll just throw out the multi-hit and “take what I can get.” But when they’re sitting at 90% near the ledge and I can smell spotdodge coming, I know that I have a window to kill them but I can’t hit it consistently online.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[Sean²]

I dunno. I never seem to have too many issues with it online. If I know it’s coming, depending on what time character I’m using, I can do different things. I generally don’t have too many issues hitting Wolf’s dsmash to punish a spotdodge, even online. If need be, I just try to go with a strong multi hit. Anything with armor or invulnerability does well. Things like Bowser/DK’s up B, Chrom/Roy side B, Richter/Simon Holy Water, etc. these things either kill, do a ton of damage, or set up into a kill. Then there’s the stuff that lingers, like Robin’s Dsmash, Palutena’s usmash, etc. Along with some of the stuff you mentioned as well.

I guess I have no idea what character you’re doing this with, though. But again, I do it to others, others do it to me. That’s why I just say keep practicing, dunno what else to tell you.

 

[PuffinToast34]

SPOT-DODGE ＢＡＣＫ

 

[1FC0]

Just pick R.O.B. and punish spotdodges with Arm Rotor.

 

[The Jim Jims]

Earlier today I played a Luigi player who spotdodged after every single whiffed move. I eventually learned to respect it and directly punish him instead.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

There is only one location where a spotdodge-canceled grounded move should even be a concern for your charged smash attack: covering neutral getup at the ledge. Elsewhere the enemy is either on a platform and will be unable to punish you in time or is in neutral, which would beg the more concerning question of why you are throwing out smash attacks in neutral.

Assuming your issue is covering neutral getup at the ledge, this is very character dependent, and you haven't stated who you use. One common way to cover neutral getup that works before spotdoding is an option is to use one of those long lasting nairs (think of wolf or mario). You'll hit the opponent in the 1(?) vulnerable frame of the neutral getup, knocking them back offstage. Another is to time and space an aerial similar to ike's nair to be active as the opponent gets up. If you mistime it, the landing lag is so low that you'll likely be safe anyway. Another option is to just respect that the enemy will spotdodge-cancel a grounded move and instead shield. Depending on the move you shield, you can get a punish ranging from a simple shield grab to a smash attack. This also has the benefit of covering getup attack and ledge-drop aerials.

If the enemy is on a platform, there is no risk for you to use a smash attack anyway since they will have to go through the whole spotdodge lag or foolishly cancel it into a whiffed grounded move, adding more lag. Therefore, all I can say is to time it better.

If you're using smash attacks in neutral besides the good ones like olimar's up and fsmashes or potentially any of gdorf's, I'm sorry to say, spotdodging is not the issue for you. Just because the enemy is at kill percents does not mean you stop playing the neutral. Most smash attacks are meant to be high risk options, so you need to use them when the risk for doing so is minimized, which is pretty much the opposite of the neutral. You still need to put the enemy in a situation where them guessing incorrectly means death and guessing correctly means little, if any, punishment for you. If your character has it, you could also use relatively safe moves that lead into kill combos, such as greninja's down tilt combing into his upsmash.

 

[Click5]

You are talking about every Ganon online haha. Spot dodge, buffer jab.

It's just part of the horrible online experience. Basically an entirely different meta you have to adapt to

 

[DelugeFGC]

If spot dodges weren't disproportionately overvalued in the systems of Ultimate, I don't think we'd see them spammed as often. As it stands, they're usually the only dodge option worth going for due to them being the least-laggy option.

 

[ZephyrZ]

If spot dodges weren't disproportionately overvalued in the systems of Ultimate, I don't think we'd see them spammed as often. As it stands, they're usually the only dodge option worth going for due to them being the least-laggy option.

I wouldn't say rolls aren't ever worth going for. Unlike spot dodges, they can provide positional advantage and are less vulnerable to lingering hitboxes and multi hits. Back dashing and hoping are still more useful in a lot of cases but an occasional roll is still a viable movement and evasion option.

 

[Sean²]

Rolls are good mixups at times. People get used to playing people who never roll and only shield, jump, and spotdodge for defense. So the scrubby roll behind your opponent can actually get you mileage here and there.

Also a decent “oh ****” way of getting out of immediate danger, like if I get too comfortable shielding and get the feeling shield breaker is gonna come out any second.