How do i beat the puff???

[Cauls]

In ssbu, i cant beat her. Im a lucas main.
Her fair combos into fair which combos into fair which carries me off into the void and it doesnt seem like theres anything i can do about it and its the dumbest thing.
Shes fast af and can get 40% off of one arial. Its dumb, it doesnt require skill to jump, nair, fair, nair again doing 40. I cant get out of it.
I would understand if these attributes were followed by a striking vulnerability, but i cant find any. I cant spike because she had the freaking best recovery in the game, i cant get heavy hits off her because she’ll fair (into fair into fair into fair) and i just cant kill her.
Ik that i seem salty and i kind of am, but im not saying shes op or anything, just asking for advice.
Help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Ethan Weegee]

Jigglypuff is the second lightest character in the game, so you're going to be knocking them farther than most characters. Try using your own neutral air to get them off of you.

 

[Desu~]

As much as I know how you want advice, I simply can't understand how you struggle against Puff even though you play a character like Lucas.

First of all, Lucas is one of the many characters that can easily shut down a Puff. Your aerials literally beats any of ours. The Fair you said you struggle so much about? You basically beat it with your own Fair and anything else that we consider our farthest range.

And I'll never forget the damn PK Fire. Puff players bust their heads trying to get around this move, and it gets harder if you do something as simple as mix it up. Because PK Fire is one of the few projectiles that Puff can't clash with anything at all. Nair usually beats stuff like Zelda's side B or Mario's fireball, etc. Heck, PK Fire can't be clashed with Pound if Nair wasn't strong enough, so whenever you pull out that side B, we're either forced to block it or dodge it, and - funnily enough - you can act out of it fast enough to throw out a Nair or Fair to beat out our approach.

Oh yeah, also, Lucas is technically faster than Puff.

So really, either you didn't know full well of your character's ressources, or it was an elaborate troll (I know, but I got surprised).

The only thing you really have to worry about is when you get out of the stage, but usually a double jump and an air dodge works for most of the time when you're high enough.

 

[Cauls]

As much as I know how you want advice, I simply can't understand how you struggle against Puff even though you play a character like Lucas.

First of all, Lucas is one of the many characters that can easily shut down a Puff. Your aerials literally beats any of ours. The Fair you said you struggle so much about? You basically beat it with your own Fair and anything else that we consider our farthest range.

And I'll never forget the damn PK Fire. Puff players bust their heads trying to get around this move, and it gets harder if you do something as simple as mix it up. Because PK Fire is one of the few projectiles that Puff can't clash with anything at all. Nair usually beats stuff like Zelda's side B or Mario's fireball, etc. Heck, PK Fire can't be clashed with Pound if Nair wasn't strong enough, so whenever you pull out that side B, we're either forced to block it or dodge it, and - funnily enough - you can act out of it fast enough to throw out a Nair or Fair to beat out our approach.

Oh yeah, also, Lucas is technically faster than Puff.

So really, either you didn't know full well of your character's ressources, or it was an elaborate troll (I know, but I got surprised).

The only thing you really have to worry about is when you get out of the stage, but usually a double jump and an air dodge works for most of the time when you're high enough.

Lucas isnt really faster than puff owo

 

[Aquamentii]

Going through these and responding to some of these posts:

-Avoiding Jiggs offstage as Lucas:
Your key goal should be to get below her. Puff has a hard time harassing opponents below her since her down-air is not great, and her fast fall, well, isn't that fast. When caught in aerial chains Puff will want you to jump so she can catch you and harass you further,and she wants you to hold in towards the stage so her combos remain true. Really you should DI out and attempt to airdodge, so you can escape her range. Once you have some breathing room, you can double jump ->tether back to the stage, since tether is very fast and hard to intercept, or you can start a low PK thunder, which Puff can't intercept due to its huge hitbox.
Really you have to trust in your recovery. Lucas' upB is one of the farthest reaching in the game. Just position yourself to a good spot and use reliable angles with your up special. The Puff will have to respect it.

-I can't spike because recovery is good
I'll assume you mean her ability to recover high for the following reasons: When recovering from low, Jiggs is very vulnerable to spikes on account of a stubby upAir and slow vertical rise. You can harass her with downAirs, backAirs, or ledge-trap with Down-Smash or PK Freeze. Down Smash is particularly effective because Puff can have trouble snapping to ledge, and even the second or third hits of Down-Smash can kill her because of her balloon weight.

So, what if she recovers high?

Tempting as it may be, I do not recommend chasing her with thunders, as she can airdodge through those and sing -> rest you.
If you do launch a thunder, don't mess around with it. Rotate it around out there once and bring it back to you so you can rocket to safety.
PK Freeze is very scary for Puff and can force her to burn more jumps / airdodge
Jump -> PK Fire is fast and, like said above, will beat any attempts by Puff to attack it.
If you are unable to capitalize on Puff recovering high very often, don't be upset about it. That is kinda her domain.

-Lucas is technically faster than puffffffffff
Well, yes and no

Puff has some of the worst ground data and the best air speed. What is important to note for this matchup is, Puff's max air speed is < Lucas' run speed. This means that if Lucas is dashing away, Puff cannot catch up. Puff really likes to chase down opponents from the air, but if Lucas stays grounded he can outrun Puff, escape her range, and bop her with forward tilt or (the demon) PK Fire.
dash back -> PK Fire is particularly brutal. Trust me, as obscure as this is, I have a lot of experience in this matchup. You can also mix in short hops to launch the fire at different heights.

My last note is that Puff's normals are all pretty slow. Don't be afraid to box her out on the ground -- you have the disjoints and the speed edge. (Particularly, frame 2 jab and frame 7 forward-tilt are killers)

 

[Love Tap]

T the person above - I actually disagree that Lucas should be hanging out below jigglypuff. Down air isn't the best tool to punish people hanging out below puff anyways, neutral air is, because it's so easy to catch a roll. Fast fall neutral air is an extremely effective way for puff to tack on percent if her spacing is on point, I would say Lucas should focus on staying in front of puff and holding down control of center stage.

In ssbu, i cant beat her. Im a lucas main.
Her fair combos into fair which combos into fair which carries me off into the void and it doesnt seem like theres anything i can do about it and its the dumbest thing.
Shes fast af and can get 40% off of one arial. Its dumb, it doesnt require skill to jump, nair, fair, nair again doing 40. I cant get out of it.
I would understand if these attributes were followed by a striking vulnerability, but i cant find any. I cant spike because she had the freaking best recovery in the game, i cant get heavy hits off her because she’ll fair (into fair into fair into fair) and i just cant kill her.
Ik that i seem salty and i kind of am, but im not saying shes op or anything, just asking for advice.
Help would be greatly appreciated.

Personally, pound is my favorite combo starter, pound, into fair, nuetral air. Anyways, as someone mentioned, the third hit of those bread and better combos is easily combo broken with a neutral air of your own, considering it's priority. If she's consistently landing those combos against you, you're also probably not teching. If you tech, you can interrupt the combo with a grab. And sure, it may not require much skill to land those combos, but it does require skill as a puff player to find those openings to get those combos in the first place, considering none of her aerials are safe on block. And wall of pain definitely requires skill, you have to read your opponents DI correctly. I'm just saying, you can ask for advice without taking a shot at the skill required to use the character, lol.

Anyways, I don't know much about Lucas, but I main puff in elite, and I'll say what everyone else says about her. She's a bait and punish style kind of character. I don't rush people down - I don't have the tools.I psyche them out with jumps to bait out movement and maximize whiff punishes. My best opponents pick up on that and opt to space me out instead playing really aggressive. Use your forward air to wall her out and slowly push toward the ledge, you PK thunder when she recovers high (there's pretty much nothing she can do about it) aaaand I got to go, my co-worker just showed up, haha. I'll edit later with some more stuff.

 

[Luigifan18]

I have to agree with the person who said to get below Jigglypuff — while she does have a lot of things going for her in terms of edgeguarding, the one thing she doesn't have is a meteor smash. No, really, she doesn't have any at all — not even a weak, situational, laggy, or flat-out suicidal one. It's a lot safer to be beneath Jigglypuff than behind or in front of her — her down air hurts, but its knockback isn't great and it won't launch you away from the stage.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Ugh… Puff mains. The Kirby main wannabes of Smash. Puff is one of the hardest characters to kill, as she can jump even farther than most characters. In fact, Jigglypuff is easily the fastest jumper in the game. (And no, Kirby using Monado Arts does not count.) This allows Puff mains to KO opponents with FORWARD AERIAL, as it can lead to a really good wall of pain. (Kirby's F-Air can as well, but I'm getting ahead of myself.) There is a downside to this insane jump speed, however. It goes so fast that Rest can't reliably kill at times. So if a Puff main misses Rest and it's at high damage, kill it with a Smash attack or one of your Special Moves that has high KO potential. Also, Puff doesn't have a Meteor Smash unlike Lucas, so you can use that to your advantage! Also C Cauls , you can go to your account settings and put what your mains are in there so that they show up when you post next time. And I have to agree with A Aquamentii . Get below Jigglypuff, or at least DI out and attempt to pull off an air dodge. You don't want to stay in front of her, as Puff will harass you even more.

 

[Desu~]

But Puff has horrendous knockback on early % and moves don't come out as fast as other characters, meaning it can be telegraphed and further encourage them to play a campy playstyle. Up-Bs are generally buffed on most characters so gimping is not so easy as Puff.

Only people who spams double jump on knockback during F-air barrage gets bopped by it.

 

[Love Tap]

Okay, to all of those saying that Lucas should be below jigglypuff- why? I'm simply curious from my own MU experience, most experienced lucas's don't try this but rely on the priority of forward air and neutral air to block approach. By comparison, dealing with Lucas from below doesn't seem as difficult because I have six whole jumps to psyche him out with, up smash is slow and easy to react to, as is PK freeze, leaving up tilt, grab, (pk thunder IF I'm too far high up to reliably punish) pk flash (lol) and neutral air. By comparison, from the front, literally ALL of your aerials will out prioritize and beat out puff, even pound.

 

[Desu~]

My guess was that it's good for lucas to be below Puff only because Uair is, like all his other aerials, pretty good and is a kill move when close to 100% iirc. And it's easy to spam too.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

My guess was that it's good to be below Jigglypuff as Lucas just in case Jigglypuff is at a high percent and Rest misses. Then Lucas could hit Puff with a fully charged F-Smash.

 

[Desu~]

My guess was that it's good to be below Jigglypuff as Lucas just in case Jigglypuff is at a high percent and Rest misses. Then Lucas could hit Puff with a fully charged F-Smash.

I honestly don't get your reasoning.

First of, why would a Puff player be in the air just to try and land Rest just like that? Rest is mostly used after a follow-up, like uair > rest or when you are sure to land it through tech chase or sing > rest.

Second point, you mean to suggest that Lucas players should get below Puff...

so they could hit them...

with a F-Smash...

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Hence why I said "just in case." I don't mean it literally!

 

[Love Tap]

My guess was that it's good for lucas to be below Puff only because Uair is, like all his other aerials, pretty good and is a kill move when close to 100% iirc. And it's easy to spam too.

Still, compared to all of his options from the front, it doesn't seem like as effective of a strategy. Situationally, sure, but the primary rationale I feel that is being used justify this is that puff trumps/harasses Lucas in the air. She doesn't. As long as you're spacing is good, Lucas has all the tools necessary to keep her out.

Lucas can accomplish more by challenging puff in her "domain" then he can just waiting to punish landings. Just PK fire a lone is really threatening in the air, forcing puff to burn a jump or air dodge.

 

[Aquamentii]

The original context of Lucas getting below puff was in off-stage situations. Since puff can't fall very fast, Lucas can escape below her and gain enough space to either start an upB or tether back to ledge.

Lucas' upB is brutally susceptible to three things:
-disjointed aerials, especially down airs
-spikes
-counters (like, it's not even fair)

Puff has none of these. her options to harass Lucas in the air from above are especially limited.

So when I said:

"Your key goal should be to get below her"

I meant when you are getting swatted off stage and are looking to recover / get away from her. She is horizontally faster, vertically slower in the air and you can find the peace you need to launch your slow recovery move by abusing this.

On stage, being below puff is not so important. She can float either direction to create horizontal distance between you very quickly and use this to land safely. Plus, as others have pointed out, Lucas' up-moves are not the safest or the best juggling tools. If I'm Lucas, I think I'd rather be on the same level as puff, but have space between us horizontally, than have her right above/below me. That way I can launch PK fires/freezes with impunity, so long as I am careful.

 

[Love Tap]

"The original context of Lucas getting below puff was in off-stage situations."

Caught me sleeping, you're right. I must have been reading too fast through the thread and assumed that's how you wanted to be playing neutral against puff and was like "um"

 

[Ethan Weegee]

Puff is one of the hardest characters to kill, as she can jump even farther than most characters.

Jigglypuff is the second lightest character in the game, and can lose stocks quickly. For opponents that know the matchup, this isn't true.