How do aerials affect a character's aerial speed or acceleration?

[Ukulele]

I remember one time (@ Smash Summit, maybe?) where Prince Abu said that Puff bair affects her aerial speed, I think. Is anyone familiar with this claim? I can't find answers online for it anywhere and couldn't then, either.

EDIT: Marth's bair is an obvious example. Is it a universal or prominent effect , though?

 

[Sycorax]

No aerials add or subtract from a character's speed. The only exception to this are Link's and Young Link's dair when they connect with an opponent. Link and YL will pop up into the air. Marth's bair does not change his speed or position in any way.

For Jigglypuff, he double jumps (but not her grounded jump) have a special animation. During this animation, she has 25% of her normal air mobility and 80% her max air speed.

 

[Ukulele]

No aerials add or subtract from a character's speed. The only exception to this are Link's and Young Link's dair when they connect with an opponent. Link and YL will pop up into the air. Marth's bair does not change his speed or position in any way.

I ran a simple test in response to your claim. Marth back airing out of a short hop with no analog jump (y-jump + c-stick) or aerial drift moves him in the direction that he bairs. In other words, with no other factors to affect his x component of velocity when airborne, it must be the back air that is causing him have a displacement, no? Test it yourself. I'm quite surprised that you have told me this, though. I've heard the claim that it does affect his aerial speed numerous times.

For Jigglypuff, he double jumps (but not her grounded jump) have a special animation. During this animation, she has 25% of her normal air mobility and 80% her max air speed.

https://twitter.com/meleelibrary/status/881184839541678081
Therefore, her aerials do in fact affect her aerial speed by your own admission (it took me a second to realize who you are; I'm a n00b). You're lucky that I follow you on Twitter, otherwise I wouldn't have known this. =(

Anyways, thanks for the response. I have tried to structure my game in a lot of ways that don't involve physics display (until I finish what I want to finish doing), so could you fill me in on the other properties of Puff's multiple jumps? It seems that there is some sort of hurtbox alteration from falling through platforms or messing with her fall speed over time? Or maybe this a property within the multiple jumps? Here is an example, https://youtu.be/HghTnO5VXts?t=53

I already know about the JS and crouch properties. I could figure this hurtbox alteration scenarios out myself, but if you have the knowledge off of the top of your head, then that would be very helpful. This sort of thing doesn't seem represented at all in normal play due to character model =/= hurtbox. (e.g., you HAVE to use physics display)

 

[ande]

aren`t all aerial effecting your speed or something, if you conect them, cause of hitlag? i think its not effecting your speed rather stops you for a moment but for example l-canceling windiow is slightly diffrentan if you land a hit, so i would assume it does do a little bit of diffrence. lets say, you jump from the ground and do an aerial and and fall to thge ground again, has the value 100 . if you hit someone with that aerial it, should effect your value of 100 since it effects the l-cancel window.

im not going by fact, just theoraticly, maybe im totaly wrong ^^

 

[Ukulele]

aren`t all aerial effecting your speed or something, if you conect them, cause of hitlag? i think its not effecting your speed rather stops you for a moment but for example l-canceling windiow is slightly diffrentan if you land a hit, so i would assume it does do a little bit of diffrence. lets say, you jump from the ground and do an aerial and and fall to thge ground again, has the value 100 . if you hit someone with that aerial it, should effect your value of 100 since it effects the l-cancel window.

im not going by fact, just theoraticly, maybe im totaly wrong ^^

You are not wrong! I simply meant when the aerials are not hitting an opponent.

 

[Sycorax]

I ran a simple test in response to your claim. Marth back airing out of a short hop with no analog jump (y-jump + c-stick) or aerial drift moves him in the direction that he bairs. In other words, with no other factors to affect his x component of velocity when airborne, it must be the back air that is causing him have a displacement, no? Test it yourself. I'm quite surprised that you have told me this, though. I've heard the claim that it does affect his aerial speed numerous times.

I've done it myself and I'm seeing no movement. Further, I'm looking at character positions with Magus's Physics display code and seeing no change. Maybe we have different mental concepts of movement? What I'm talking about is that Marth's x-position on the ground does not change. You can't use bair to move Marth across the stage. If you bair, land, turn around, bair, land, turn around, and repeat, you will not change positions.

I've heard the claim that it does affect his aerial speed numerous times.

There are about 5 people in the world you can trust to give you accurate information about game mechanics. There are just too many myths floating around and too many people not willing to dive deep enough into that side of the game to actually develop a sound understanding.

could you fill me in on the other properties of Puff's multiple jumps? It seems that there is some sort of hurtbox alteration from falling through platforms or messing with her fall speed over time? Or maybe this a property within the multiple jumps? Here is an example, https://youtu.be/HghTnO5VXts?t=53

Idk how to answer this question. There is just so much information. I don't know how to say it all. I don't know if all of can be said. How specific do you want me to be?

Falling through platforms doesn't mess with her fall speed. Any time any character does any move, jab, aerial, roll, shield, walk, etc. their hurtbox contorts. That is the move's animation. If their animations didn't change, every move would look the same. It would be a very silly game.

aren`t all aerial effecting your speed or something, if you conect them, cause of hitlag? i think its not effecting your speed rather stops you for a moment but for example l-canceling windiow is slightly diffrentan if you land a hit, so i would assume it does do a little bit of diffrence. lets say, you jump from the ground and do an aerial and and fall to thge ground again, has the value 100 . if you hit someone with that aerial it, should effect your value of 100 since it effects the l-cancel window.

im not going by fact, just theoraticly, maybe im totaly wrong ^^

Hitlag freezes your character in place for a number of frames, but it doesn't change your character's velocity. You can think of it as a time freeze. I suppose you could also think of it as the game setting your velocity to zero for that many frames, then returning you to your previous velocity afterwards, but that seems more confusing to me and is also not what happens in the game code.

 

[Ukulele]

I've done it myself and I'm seeing no movement. Further, I'm looking at character positions with Magus's Physics display code and seeing no change. Maybe we have different mental concepts of movement? What I'm talking about is that Marth's x-position on the ground does not change. You can't use bair to move Marth across the stage. If you bair, land, turn around, bair, land, turn around, and repeat, you will not change positions.

You're right; I'm ******** for this. I did a stupid, lazy test instead of just viewing the data for his x-values with respect to bairing or doing what you said. The only other "mental concept" I could have had about velocity would have been his rotational velocity, but aerial speed and acceleration is always measured solely in terms of x-positions to begin with. This reminds me of something though: https://smashboards.com/threads/falco-discussion-thread.256826/page-598
"People claim that Fox has the faster jump due to the shorter jumpsquat animation, but has anyone taken the time to look at the physics behind the jumps -- the acceleration components to the jump (a jump is completely grounded first during jumpsquat animation and therefore has 0 vertical displacement and therefore 0 velocity vertically, which implies acceleration when the velocity later has non-zero values...) and the velocity components to the jump."
As you admit, I need your help if I want to know anything!

There are about 5 people in the world you can trust to give you accurate information about game mechanics. There are just too many myths floating around and too many people not willing to dive deep enough into that side of the game to actually develop a sound understanding.

I'm starting to realize how pesky I'm being. I need to start using Physics Display... I've just been studying so many different things that I never have the fukken time to do so. I guess the easiest way to figure this out would be to track the data of their y-values over time when jumping.

Idk how to answer this question. There is just so much information.

It's just my poor phrasing, sorry. I'm simply asking how these various things might affect her hurtbox.

I don't know how to say it all. I don't know if all of can be said. How specific do you want me to be?

Falling through platforms doesn't mess with her fall speed.

If you watch the video I linked (at the timestamp), you'll notice Puff alter her hurtbox greatly after falling through the platform. I was just wondering how often she drastically expands and compresses like this. It could definetely prove useful to study, but I can figure this out myself via... you know... lol. If anything our conversation is just a rude awakening for me. =3=

Any time any character does any move, jab, aerial, roll, shield, walk, etc. their hurtbox contorts. That is the move's animation. If their animations didn't change, every move would look the same. It would be a very silly game.

I'm completely familiar with this. I just poorly phrased my confusion about Puff hurtbox contorting properties.

Hitlag freezes your character in place for a number of frames, but it doesn't change your character's velocity. You can think of it as a time freeze. I suppose you could also think of it as the game setting your velocity to zero for that many frames, then returning you to your previous velocity afterwards, but that seems more confusing to me and is also not what happens in the game code.

Well, if your characters position is stationary vs. the previous non-zero velocity, then there must be some change.