How developed do you think Lucas' metagame is?

[D e l t a]

Got the idea for this thread a while back from a friend. Basically as the title says, how developed do you think Lucas is? And how much of Lucas' explored options are actually applied in-game?

This includes all aspects of Lucas' gameplay including his tech chase coverage, combos, ledge guards, neutral game, matchups, shield pressure, etc.

==

Personally, I'd say Lucas is somewhere around 70% developed, and a little over half of that development is used in-game.

 

[D e l t a]

Reasons why I say he's underdeveloped. Really long but worth reading. Spells out issues that I've seen in all Lucas players that we could improve on, plus all the things I've noticed we've done well.

Spoiler

We've explored a lot of his basic and intermediate combos. There's still so many followups and ways to combo that haven't been pushed to the limit. I.e. First hits of Nair / Dair, Utilt (both the sour & sweet spot hits), Dtilt and abusing the quick IASA frames, mixing up Fair & Uair, etc

==

Most of his tech including shield pressure, is still a work in progress, but we've definitely got most of his options down. I'd say shield pressure is a weaker point in execution, but on paper the options are laid out clearly. All we have to do is practice more haha. Double jump landing, a lagless cancel onto a platform similar to smooth landing / no impact landing, is almost never used in-game except by accident. Definitely something we could work on.

==

His tech chases and tech chase setups are still somewhat lacking. Lots of players (myself included) are using Dair as the easy tech chase followup, but we could push that further. Lucas' amazing movement & wavedash could definitely be used more efficiently. Despite a terrible tether grab, the grab range is very long. WD -> Tilts and magnet -> JC grab are all under-explored.

==

As for neutral, this is highly underdeveloped, both in theory and application. Most of us are using PKF to create openings and convert easily, but once people begin power shielding more consistently or understanding how the projectile isn't that amazing, we'll need to begin finding new ways to play neutral. Lucas is great at getting in, but once we're in, most of us back out and shoot more PKF instead of applying pressure. When Lucas gets forced into a corner most of us struggle to escape, so we try shooting PKF and end up getting bodied for it. More mixups on DJC wavelands / Fair / retreating aerials could definitely be applied.

Furthermore, we could definitely tighten up spacing and approach methods. WD -> Ftilt / Utilt is rarely, if ever used. Approaching magnets as baits are occasionally good and also underused. Using late aerials or DJC to safely land aerials on opponents is the other approach I don't often see.

==

On the ledge, we lack consistency on reclaiming stage control. We've only scratched the surface on ledge options. Most of us use ledge hop aerials like rising Fair/Dair or his terrible roll / standard getup / getup attack.

In addition, Lucas has great options by using ledge jump invincibility under 100% including wavelands & magnet. Opponents don't respect our options near the ledge nearly as much as they should. Frame perfect ledge jump magnet, as I posted a while ago under the thread "Semi Hax-dash," is invincible for the first 5 frames until you can JC -> waveland back, where there are 8 frames to punish. Perfect wavelands have 5 invulnerability frames, which means there are 5 frames until Lucas can act and pull up shield, spot dodge, etc.

==

Finally, our recoveries could use more work. Perfecting sweetspots, angling tethers so our head doesn't rise above the ledge, and ledge cancelling PKT2. Not to mention mixing up recoveries to top platforms on triangle stages like FoD, Battlefield, Dreamland, etch

 

[Player -0]

Play like Ness except for random Falco lasers.

You guys also get an actual ledge dash and are super fast .

One thing is that Lucas has some problems with people above him (imo at least). So if anything applying indirect pressure/shield pressure and being able to transition your shield pressure onto a shield/hold advantage when people start escaping to platforms.

Know PKF spacing and use it to bait OoS approaches and punish. Especially if they WD OoS -> Shield just straight grab.

 

[zen-bz-]

DJ platform landed OU Usmash is proven effective at increasing opponents' salt levels by at least 57%.
But I'll do a serious writeup on this later when I get the chance.

 

[Kipcom]

40-50% tbh

Looking at how Melee is still developing characters' meta for a 14 year old game, I find it kinda hard to give lucas anything over 50% in this discussion. Most of his tech is known, what combos into what, etc. The problem is that it's not often executed and Lucas players aren't getting results that they could be getting. Hyper gets consistent top 2 at his locals and does pretty well at nationals (though I'd love to see him get consistent top 8s). I usually get top 3 at my locals and at whatever monthlies happen. I also performed well at TO11 and while I'm proud of the result, I know I could have gotten further than that. I think Jamwa is very successful in his region, but it'd also be interesting to see him vs some of the US competition. I also don't think that people know the counterplay to Lucas very well, as we still get away with a lot of stuff that we shouldn't be getting away with.

Basically I want to see better results out of Lucas players as a whole before I say his meta is well developed. I don't think many characters in this game have a very developed meta game, either. So it's not just Lucas bias or anything, it's just how I think the game and its players are at the moment.

 

[D e l t a]

Very true. I'd still like to see Lucas' movement options utilized more. And the number of MUs that he struggles with i've theory crafted endlessly thinking of new ways for them to be played; however, there's only so many tournaments and we're not able to attend everything. I'm still waiting to see Hyper have his first amazing breakout tournament and make it to top 4 or better of a national. TO11 was a great showing, but there's so much we can improve on Lucas.

 

[zen-bz-]

I agree with a lot of the things that Delta/Kip mentioned. He’s pretty explored, yet also very unexplored (if that makes any sense). I don’t really have a specific % that I can give in terms of meta and development. We’ve figured out lots of stuff to do with Lucas, yet no one (or at least a few people) is(/are) trying to do these things consistently. For example, DJ platform landing. VERY untapped. I’ve been fooling around with it a lot, and I feel like it’s a very useful tech, similar to the “Flashing Fire” tech on Snake, where he can platform cancel with a jump > cypher > u-air at the right positioning. For Snake, this can allow for another cypher, a grab, a tilt, etc. and it’s very useful; the landing lag is less than that of a wavedash. Lucas’ is similar, except unlike the FF tech, there’s no hitlag associated with it; it’s just a double jump platform cancel. Like FF, it can be used for grabs, tilts, smashes, even magnet. But the thing is that nobody really abuses the lesser landing lag it has versus a wavedash. Against floaties for example, dair at higher %s against floaties into DJPC Usmash can be really effective if timed right. Though I might still need to do some testing on that.


I’ve also been experimenting with other stuff, like SH Mag into DJ waveland for quick shield pressure/poking and then repositioning. I love exploring meta for this character because there’s just SO MUCH he can do. Even a pseudo shine-turnaround to reposition himself for bair spikes, a sweetspot fair, etc. Wavebounces, aerial mags, etc., even around only one move Lucas has huge possibilities. And even more recently (today in fact), Ripple posted on r/SSBPM about a tether LEDGE CANCEL. Combined with his magnet it’d give some HUGE advantages to Lucas and even allow for a convert into bair. But despite how much he’s been explored, exploration isn’t really the problem here. Application is. Don’t get me wrong, in no way am I discrediting ANY Lucas player. It’s just that there’s a lot more about him that could be utilized and applied in tourney.


I love meta development. But I, and others, also need to realize we need to apply whatever we find into tourneys and matches and not just continue to “develop meta” when we don’t even use a lot of the meta we currently know about :/

 

[nimigoha]

Been trying more WD>Ftilt like basically Luigi style and it's interesting to say the least. Will give WD>Ultit a go, seems like fun.

I agree with the general consensus. Pretty good understanding of general gameplay but overall tech application has the potential to be so much deeper.

Also after returning to the character since 3.02, Dtilt is so freaking godly and I never use it! It's high on my list of "figure out how to do this".

Also late Dash Attack is something I almost never see used to punish recoveries, it has a dirty angle and enough disjoint to protect you from pretty much every recovery hitbox.

 

[zen-bz-]

Also after returning to the character since 3.02, Dtilt is so freaking godly and I never use it! It's high on my list of "figure out how to do this".

Yeah it surprises me how underused dtilt is. It has great range, can combo into mag or fair, and even resets.
WD into dtilt is also pretty good.

 

[nimigoha]

Spacing outer Dtilt for sick resets could be good... if PM didn't have stupid easy ways to avoid getting reset.

 

[D e l t a]

Inner Dtilt -> dash attack, dash forward magnet, grab, Ftilt, or even another Dtilt

So many uses from the inner hitbox of Dtilt

 

[Josa]

Not enough.