How come most Kirby players don't even try to copy their opponents' abilities?

Ryu Myuutsu

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#1
This is a question that has been bugging me for years. Kirby is one of the characters I use the most, and I like to take advantage of his copy abilities. I have had a good amount of success with him in most of my matches, and I almost always get the ability I want even in high level play.

I know it can be hard sometimes to get an ability but most of them give you a decent option in your matchup, can extend your combos, give you a slight advantage or become an absolute game changer. Plus it's funny to give your opponent a taste of their own medicine. But I noticed that every other Kirby player I've ever faced both online and offline seems to ignore this aspect of him. Why is that? I can't stress enough that every aspiring Kirby player should want to make use of their opponent's ability, depending on the match up.

This is my personal experience though. It could be that other Kirby players around the globe do play more optimally, but I have never encountered. During Smash 4's lifetime, I only fought one guy who used copy abilities but that was it.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#3
It's well worth the risk in several matches. It can be hard to land, but not impossible.
 
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WootSnorlax

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#4
Idon has put it best, it's a risk. Why eat a lot of damage trying to get yourself a supposed upper hand in the match up? That's like asking why Lucario players don't SD their stocks in order to have Aura activate quicker.

Especially against players who are very mobile, you're going to have to outplay them in order to get a copy ability. With such poor airspeed and mediocre ground speed, Kirby has to chase down the opponent most of the match. To catch someone standing still long enough to get an inhale off with it's poor range is pretty rare as literally any option other than shield/spotdoge can beat out inhale. Match ups where the Copy ability are very useful usually means that the opponent you're going against is going to be hard to catch (e.g. Zone projectile based characters, or high mobility characters). If you take in consideration that SSBU has a high emphasis on good movement, it's now going to be that much harder to catch someone sleeping.

That's not to say it's impossible to get. You just don't really want to be fishing for it. You've got to be able to get a good read on the opponent before just throwing out inhale willy-nilly. The most probable situation would be someone shielding on a platform and you full hop inhale to get it. Though with the slightly improved start up and reduced end lag, maybe we will see more people going for Inhale.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#6
Idon has put it best, it's a risk. Why eat a lot of damage trying to get yourself a supposed upper hand in the match up? That's like asking why Lucario players don't SD their stocks in order to have Aura activate quicker.

Especially against players who are very mobile, you're going to have to outplay them in order to get a copy ability. With such poor airspeed and mediocre ground speed, Kirby has to chase down the opponent most of the match. To catch someone standing still long enough to get an inhale off with it's poor range is pretty rare as literally any option other than shield/spotdoge can beat out inhale. Match ups where the Copy ability are very useful usually means that the opponent you're going against is going to be hard to catch (e.g. Zone projectile based characters, or high mobility characters). If you take in consideration that SSBU has a high emphasis on good movement, it's now going to be that much harder to catch someone sleeping.

That's not to say it's impossible to get. You just don't really want to be fishing for it. You've got to be able to get a good read on the opponent before just throwing out inhale willy-nilly. The most probable situation would be someone shielding on a platform and you full hop inhale to get it. Though with the slightly improved start up and reduced end lag, maybe we will see more people going for Inhale.
If you are a one dimensional Kirby player, then you are never going inhale your opponent. Overextending by going for one move is an easy way to lose a game, so as you say, you have to put the effort in outplaying your opponent. In several matchups, the benefits of a copy ability are simply too good to pass up and not try to get it.
 

Phan7om

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#7
If you are a one dimensional Kirby player, then you are never going inhale your opponent. Overextending by going for one move is an easy way to lose a game, so as you say, you have to put the effort in outplaying your opponent. In several matchups, the benefits of a copy ability are simply too good to pass up and not try to get it.
I agree with you for the most part. And, to put it nicely, I suppose its simpler to not worry about it and play the base character. I myself, even dont pursue the ability in practice either bc im working on another part of my game, im not confident in using it, or it just completely slips my mind.

People seem to have this idea that you gotta hard read them to get the inhale when in fact, Kirby has over 40 things to look out for (aka "setups") to get the ability , yet at most people use around 5. Most Kirbys try to force it, get blown up for it, and blame it on the move. I know I could do better myself showing how practical these setups are, but in smash 4's case I didn't have motivation to put time into the game. Maybe in Ultimate I'll do a better job of it. On top of that, optimization of the abilities in the meta are slim to none. A lot of Kirbys, even the top ones, are behind the meta in regards to neutral b usage. Kirby is branded as a "simple character", and as such it attracts a certain mindset to playing him. One day that may be changed, but it is what it is at the moment.
 
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Gerrothorax

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#8
The other problem with Kirby's copy ability is that he only copies the neutral special which is usually the weakest special in a characters repertoire.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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#9
The other problem with Kirby's copy ability is that he only copies the neutral special which is usually the weakest special in a characters repertoire.
In a lot of matchups, the neutral special is enough to provide Kirby a decent edge. Avoid copying Falcon/Warlock Punch, Rollout, PK Flash and PK Freeze though.
Stuff like Mario and Lugi's Fireball, Pikachu's Thunder Jolt, Samus's Charge Shot, Mewtwo's Shadow Ball, Lucario's Aura Sphere, Sheik's Needles, Ryu's Hadouken give you a lot of mileage without the need of a diverse moveset for each ability.

I agree with you for the most part. And, to put it nicely, I suppose its simpler to not worry about it and play the base character. I myself, even dont pursue the ability in practice either bc im working on another part of my game, im not confident in using it, or it just completely slips my mind.

People seem to have this idea that you gotta hard read them to get the inhale when in fact, Kirby has over 40 things to look out for (aka "setups") to get the ability , yet at most people use around 5. Most Kirbys try to force it, get blown up for it, and blame it on the move. I know I could do better myself showing how practical these setups are, but in smash 4's case I didn't have motivation to put time into the game. Maybe in Ultimate I'll do a better job of it. On top of that, optimization of the abilities in the meta are slim to none. A lot of Kirbys, even the top ones, are behind the meta in regards to neutral b usage. Kirby is branded as a "simple character", and as such it attracts a certain mindset to playing him. One day that may be changed, but it is what it is at the moment.
Yes, indeed. If I try to focus on just copying an ability, I'm likely to lose. So you have to use your whole kit for the fight and create those opportunities to nab the opponent's neutral special. Kirby has several combos he can follow up from Fthrow, Dair and Utilt, so you can try mixing up from them.
 
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link2702

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#10
Either the character does bad against Kirby already and copying doesn’t change things much, the character has a way to counter their own ability (projectile specials where often the original character also has a reflector) the move in question is trash anyway so neither Kirby nor his opponent would ever bother using it anyway, or Kirby would get more use from trying to gimp em by dragging em down with inhale instead.

Really the only character I can think of that Kirby should definitely copy is Shulk. Of course shulk has a bit of trouble anyway against Kirby iirc, but getting Shulk’s monodo makes Kirby absolutely terrifying.
 

Demon-oni

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#11
I'd say overall all it amounts to necessity. Inhale had really lackluster frame data this time around and he's not really on the heavy end of the chart, so unless you get an opportunity to get a match up defining ability like Shulk monado arts or pika thunderjolt, it's not worth the risk of taking a pretty hefty percentage fine. Inhale has better range and recovery frames this time around in Ultimate so I think we'll start to see more willing to work it into their match ups now, though only time will tell. Hell, even brawl kirby played more with inhale simply because harsh punishments weren't a thing really in Brawl unless you were fighting MK,
 

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#12
A long start-up (even longer than the standing grab) can likely explain why Inhale doesn't get used much. It also comes down to what kind of benefits would Kirby get if he copied his opponent. Obviously, Monado Arts can improve Kirby's offensive abilities, or enable him to survive longer.
 

Xebenkeck

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#13
The fact that a jab can knock the ability out of you is what makes copy useless. You can try and try to get an ability then a mario fireball just knocks ot out of you three seconds later........

If kirby got the ability for the duration of his stock no matter what it be far more worth it. So far only P:M has had this feature, unfortunately
 

Koopaul

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#15
As someone who is inbetween casual and competitive, I can say the reason is most of those copy abilities just don't work well for Kirby. Those abilities were designed for a specific fighter and work the best for them. Kirby performing DK's Giant Punch is awful with those tiny little nubs of his. It was meant for DK's big beefy arms.

On top of that, like other people have said, his suction is pretty slow. Even in casual play I have difficulty sucking someone up. Not Little Mac, though. A lot of casual Little Macs just throw themselves at you, so I often suck them up easy... I don't use his power (because it's awful) but I like the way Kirby looks with Mac's hair.
 
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#17
I agree that it should be used more often if you have a good chance. As a Kirby main, I don't think I've ever gone a match without using it.

That being said, the move is in desperate need of a buff. I don't know if this is canonically possible, but what if Kirby could use everyone's special moves?
 

Noventiaa

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#18
I agree that it should be used more often if you have a good chance. As a Kirby main, I don't think I've ever gone a match without using it.

That being said, the move is in desperate need of a buff. I don't know if this is canonically possible, but what if Kirby could use everyone's special moves?
I remember once dreaming up something where you'd select which special move you wanted to use after inhaling someone by selecting a direction (kind of like how SSBU shulk selects arts.) It'd be pretty convoluted and take up a lot of development time, though.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#19
It usually results in you and your opponent spamming neutral B for the rest of the match. Otherwise, Kirby can sometimes be punished afterwards.
If the Kirby player doesn't know what he is doing, yes.

That is not what I'm suggesting though. A lot of the assessments on this thread seem to stem from the fact that the Kirby player is either incompetent or plays one dimensionally.
I know the opponent will be smart as well. so one shouldn't overextend by any means. But you have to learn to create that opportunity.

As someone who is inbetween casual and competitive, I can say the reason is most of those copy abilities just don't work well for Kirby. Those abilities were designed for a specific fighter and work the best for them. Kirby performing DK's Giant Punch is awful with those tiny little nubs of his. It was meant for DK's big beefy arms.

On top of that, like other people have said, his suction is pretty slow. Even in casual play I have difficulty sucking someone up. Not Little Mac, though. A lot of casual Little Macs just throw themselves at you, so I often suck them up easy... I don't use his power (because it's awful) but I like the way Kirby looks with Mac's hair.
Obviously not every move is designed to function with Kirby. It's about knowing which ability to copy. DK's ability isn't that useful to the matchup, but it still helps. One like Sheik's is much more versatile. Or Bowser's.

The fact that a jab can knock the ability out of you is what makes copy useless. You can try and try to get an ability then a mario fireball just knocks ot out of you three seconds later........
Considering the immense benefits that some abilities provide, calling it useless is just inaccurate. Yes, I won't deny that it sucks that a love tap knocking the ability out of you is stupid and needs to be changed, but it doesn't occur that often to completely disregard it.
 

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#20
It hardly feels worthwhile to copy an ability with how risky it can be to try. Not only can the foe potentially damage Kirby, all they have to do to prevent him from inhaling them is to shield and roll away. There's also the matter of Kirby randomly losing abilities when getting hit, it happens frequently enough, and inhale is risky enough to use it doesn't feel worthwhile. He's not exactly fast enough to keep up with those who do tend have potentially worthwhile abilities too. There are also instances where using copy will set up a foe to nail Kirby with a down aerial. Lucario in either brawl or smash 4 comes to mind.
 
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TimG57867

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#21
This is an issue Kirby mains have had for ages and I really feel it's just one of many things that hold his players back.

Inhale for the longest time has a had a bad stigma as some scrub move when it's honestly anything but that. It's only gotten better over time and games, and many of the matchups Kirby seems hopeless in are utterly revamped when he lands a copy. Seriously how any Kirby player in their right mind would go through the trouble of fighting foes like :4olimar::4greninja::4sheik::4rob::4samus:, etc without attempting Copy even ONCE just utterly astounds me. Not only are a lot of Copy moves incredible on their own, but many of them can actually serve as combo starters and kill confirms done right.

People say using it is asking to be punished but this really grossly exaggerated. I am sure, if you spam it over and over, you'll get punished good. That applies to darn near any attack in the game. (Aside from crap like :4ganondorf:'s Up Smash of course). But if you are calculated and mix it up or use a set up (which it DOES have) you can actually use it without too much risk. Hell I land my copies pretty often and most of the time I don't even need Up Tilt setups to do so. I just mix it up with seemingly normal neutral footsies and just catch my opponent off guard with it. And I'll tell it's helped me in loads of matches throughout my time playing SSB4.

Another thing that puzzles me are claims about Copy Abilities only working for the OG user and not Kirby. This...is simply not true. Sure you got cases like :4metaknight: where our version is outright neutered. But more often than not, our version is often just as effective if not more. Especially with our multiple jumps. And sometimes our version is flat out BETTER. (Just look at :4olimar:). With the right applications and creativity, very few abilities are truly worthless. :4peach:'s seems useless until you catch her out of her Up B. :4falco:'s seems pointless until your laser stuffs his side B and sets him up for a D-Air spike. :4dedede:'s seems useless until a Gordo comes headed your way. It's true some abilties just aren't worth the trouble but these are certainly not the majority.

On top of all this, people overlook the fact that this one move is a big part of why Kirby is designed the way he is. I mean think about it. Don't you think it's a bit coincidental that the 1 character in the game with the ability to copy powers also happens to have 1 of the worst overall sets of specials in the game? This was clearly intentional (unfortunately). They do this to encourage you to copy powers and fix Kirby's usually weak neutral game. Kirby becomes way more potent with an effective neutral option and Copy is meant to be our way of getting that in most matchups. That's why it's been buffed so much across games compared to Kirby's other specials.

Honestly, the only truly bad thing about Copy is that you can lose powers erratically from getting hit. But I'd rather Copy and lose the power and try to get it again, then just try to operate without it and just get camped to kingdom come. Neutral B is easily the most underrated move in Kirby's kit. And with Smash Ultimate soon to bost the biggest roster yet, I expect it to be vital tool to any Kirby that REALLY wants to master this game's matchups. I certainly intend to do so.
 

metaXzero

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#22
This is an issue Kirby mains have had for ages and I really feel it's just one of many things that hold his players back.

Inhale for the longest time has a had a bad stigma as some scrub move when it's honestly anything but that. It's only gotten better over time and games, and many of the matchups Kirby seems hopeless in are utterly revamped when he lands a copy. Seriously how any Kirby player in their right mind would go through the trouble of fighting foes like :4olimar::4greninja::4sheik::4rob::4samus:, etc without attempting Copy even ONCE just utterly astounds me. Not only are a lot of Copy moves incredible on their own, but many of them can actually serve as combo starters and kill confirms done right.

People say using it is asking to be punished but this really grossly exaggerated. I am sure, if you spam it over and over, you'll get punished good. That applies to darn near any attack in the game. (Aside from crap like :4ganondorf:'s Up Smash of course). But if you are calculated and mix it up or use a set up (which it DOES have) you can actually use it without too much risk. Hell I land my copies pretty often and most of the time I don't even need Up Tilt setups to do so. I just mix it up with seemingly normal neutral footsies and just catch my opponent off guard with it. And I'll tell it's helped me in loads of matches throughout my time playing SSB4.

Another thing that puzzles me are claims about Copy Abilities only working for the OG user and not Kirby. This...is simply not true. Sure you got cases like :4metaknight: where our version is outright neutered. But more often than not, our version is often just as effective if not more. Especially with our multiple jumps. And sometimes our version is flat out BETTER. (Just look at :4olimar:). With the right applications and creativity, very few abilities are truly worthless. :4peach:'s seems useless until you catch her out of her Up B. :4falco:'s seems pointless until your laser stuffs his side B and sets him up for a D-Air spike. :4dedede:'s seems useless until a Gordo comes headed your way. It's true some abilties just aren't worth the trouble but these are certainly not the majority.

On top of all this, people overlook the fact that this one move is a big part of why Kirby is designed the way he is. I mean think about it. Don't you think it's a bit coincidental that the 1 character in the game with the ability to copy powers also happens to have 1 of the worst overall sets of specials in the game? This was clearly intentional (unfortunately). They do this to encourage you to copy powers and fix Kirby's usually weak neutral game. Kirby becomes way more potent with an effective neutral option and Copy is meant to be our way of getting that in most matchups. That's why it's been buffed so much across games compared to Kirby's other specials.

Honestly, the only truly bad thing about Copy is that you can lose powers erratically from getting hit. But I'd rather Copy and lose the power and try to get it again, then just try to operate without it and just get camped to kingdom come. Neutral B is easily the most underrated move in Kirby's kit. And with Smash Ultimate soon to bost the biggest roster yet, I expect it to be vital tool to any Kirby that REALLY wants to master this game's matchups. I certainly intend to do so.
Trust me, if all Kirby players needed to do to max out his potential was master his Copy, people would've done it in the other games. But the fact is the move is consistently garbage frame data wise and the effort it takes to get an ability that can be removed by potentially your next isn't usually worth it. In most match-ups, it doesn't make a big enough difference for all the trouble you have to go throuhg. Most set-ups into Copy are also set-ups for combos and strings so you're trading damage for this ability that for all you know, could get knocked off a few seconds after grabbing it.

Most Neutral-Bs don't help with Kirby getting camped out. Either the character has other (and often better) projectiles, or they have the mobility to discourage Kirby from counter camping. Like you're not going to camp out Samus with charge shots when she has charged shots+2 missle types. You're not going to camp out Fox when anytime you pull out the blaster, Fox can either punish you or put himself in a good position to pressure you.. Stuff like the Mario and Luigi projectiles help, but the match-up is pretty fine even without the ability. The match-ups where Kirby could really use a better ability just aren't really there.

Copy has consistently been a gimmick move of low quality. Kirby's other specials aren't bad to encourage Copy usage. They are bad because of Sakurai's insistence on balancing certain character moves around being better at Free For All with items than being better 1v1. In Sakurai's eyes, Hammer and Stone are good moves because if someone isn't paying attention to Kirby, he can float up above them and crush them with Stone or charge up the hammer and smash them which will kill at lower percents. Thats "balanced" in Sakurai's eyes. As long as Kirby is designed the way he is, Copy will never see common usage and Kirby himself will always be a lower mid to low tier character.
 

TimG57867

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#23
Trust me, if all Kirby players needed to do to max out his potential was master his Copy, people would've done it in the other games. But the fact is the move is consistently garbage frame data wise and the effort it takes to get an ability that can be removed by potentially your next isn't usually worth it. In most match-ups, it doesn't make a big enough difference for all the trouble you have to go throuhg. Most set-ups into Copy are also set-ups for combos and strings so you're trading damage for this ability that for all you know, could get knocked off a few seconds after grabbing it.

Most Neutral-Bs don't help with Kirby getting camped out. Either the character has other (and often better) projectiles, or they have the mobility to discourage Kirby from counter camping. Like you're not going to camp out Samus with charge shots when she has charged shots+2 missle types. You're not going to camp out Fox when anytime you pull out the blaster, Fox can either punish you or put himself in a good position to pressure you.. Stuff like the Mario and Luigi projectiles help, but the match-up is pretty fine even without the ability. The match-ups where Kirby could really use a better ability just aren't really there.

Copy has consistently been a gimmick move of low quality. Kirby's other specials aren't bad to encourage Copy usage. They are bad because of Sakurai's insistence on balancing certain character moves around being better at Free For All with items than being better 1v1. In Sakurai's eyes, Hammer and Stone are good moves because if someone isn't paying attention to Kirby, he can float up above them and crush them with Stone or charge up the hammer and smash them which will kill at lower percents. Thats "balanced" in Sakurai's eyes. As long as Kirby is designed the way he is, Copy will never see common usage and Kirby himself will always be a lower mid to low tier character.
I already acknowledged that are matchups where it's legitimately not a good idea to go for Copy and Fox is one of them. I don't agree with Samus however. The point of taking Charge Shot isn't to out-camp her. It's to level the playing field and help you get in. Plus in SSB4 you even got a kill setup with them. I have experienced and watched sets (including ones from top players like Mike) where that power made a massive difference. People just like to think of the few matchups where Copy legitimately has no good application rather than see the big picture and get creative with it. Plus as I said for every matchup where it has no use, there's another 1 or 2 where it's a godsend. Yet even in those matchups I don't see players attempt it and they accordingly suffer. I have fought potent Greninja and Pikachu mains and off firsthand experience I simply cannot agree with this sentiment.

I also don't agree with it being a low quality gimmick. The last game where I feel it fit that bill was early SSB4. Ever since patch 1.10 I now believe it's a perfectly legitimate move in Kirby's kit. And Kirby's tier position is an irrelevant issue. Even if he was bottom tier that's no excuse not to fully exploit his moveset whenever possible. Even if he's not popular, the people who do use him should still exploit his kit whenever feasibly.

In reality the only truly bad thing about the move is that you can lose powers erratically.

PS: For that bit on Sakurai, it's certainly a factor. Especially in how they were conceived to begin with but I don't believe it's the only one. He does the balance the game with more than 1 v 1 in mind and I believe Kirby's specials are a compromise in his vision of making Kirby a fun free for all character while also encouraging people to try Copy. While Kirby was clearly more suited to FFA in his inception, Sakurai clearly didn't want him to be outright helpless in singles either so he gave him a special to compensate for this.
 
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metaXzero

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#25
I already acknowledged that are matchups where it's legitimately not a good idea to go for Copy and Fox is one of them. I don't agree with Samus however. The point of taking Charge Shot isn't to out-camp her. It's to level the playing field and help you get in. Plus in SSB4 you even got a kill setup with them. I have experienced and watched sets (including ones from top players like Mike) where that power made a massive difference. People just like to think of the few matchups where Copy legitimately has no good application rather than see the big picture and get creative with it. Plus as I said for every matchup where it has no use, there's another 1 or 2 where it's a godsend. Yet even in those matchups I don't see players attempt it and they accordingly suffer. I have fought potent Greninja and Pikachu mains and off firsthand experience I simply cannot agree with this sentiment.

I also don't agree with it being a low quality gimmick. The last game where I feel it fit that bill was early SSB4. Ever since patch 1.10 I now believe it's a perfectly legitimate move in Kirby's kit. And Kirby's tier position is an irrelevant issue. Even if he was bottom tier that's no excuse not to fully exploit his moveset whenever possible. Even if he's not popular, the people who do use him should still exploit his kit whenever feasibly.

In reality the only truly bad thing about the move is that you can lose powers erratically.

PS: For that bit on Sakurai, it's certainly a factor. Especially in how they were conceived to begin with but I don't believe it's the only one. He does the balance the game with more than 1 v 1 in mind and I believe Kirby's specials are a compromise in his vision of making Kirby a fun free for all character while also encouraging people to try Copy. While Kirby was clearly more suited to FFA in his inception, Sakurai clearly didn't want him to be outright helpless in singles either so he gave him a special to compensate for this.
But does it really help with getting in? In nearly every Smash game where I took the charge shot, I'd either use it as an alternative KO option or to annoy a far away Samus with uncharged shots before she starts resets neutral and starts camping. In the end, it still didn't feel like I absolutely needed it for the match-up compared to something like Project M Ivysaur where you get Solar Beam or Melee/Project M Falco where you get the same landing lagless short hop lasers but can shoot double lasers to Falco's one. Its been a while since I watched Mike Kirby, but I distinctly remember him not going for Inhale much. Looking for Kirby tournament matches, its rare for top performing Kirbys to go for inhale even if the match-up would benefit. What seems to happen is either the Kirby player is doing a good enough job already and thus doesn't feel the need to sacrifice damage or pressure potential by mixing in an Inhale OR they are struggling hard and they don't get the chance to throw an Inhale that will hit in the first place. And all that creativity that can go out the window with 1-2 love taps just makes it not worth it when you could've gone for damage which can't be undone. The benefits of the good abilities just don't make up for the steep negatives of trying to get them.

I brought up Kirby's tier placement to bring in the bigger point about Kirby's moveset consistently not being well designed compared to a lot of other characters. It does not make up for Stone and Hammer being near-worthless moves because Inhale is still pretty bad. Its start-up frames, its range which is actually smaller than the graphic effect and thus can lead to a lot of characters shutting Kirby up if they end up outside the vaccuum pull and are instead in the windbox area, and its ridiculously long cooldown frames will almost always insure Kirby gets punished for a whiffed Inhale just reduce incentive for a player to use it, but throw in certain characters being able to punish Kirby after being Copied and any hit potentially removing your hat and its such poor move that earns its rep for being a move to ignore.

When Kirby's moveset was concieved in Smash 64, all his specials were still bad and Inhale was the worst version of any Smash game. (though Kirby himself was his best version for 1v1s was one of the best characters in that game) I don't think Inhale was ever made to balance out Stone and later Hammer in a 1v1 situation. I bet Inhale was also balanced around FFA usage. After all, the heavy start-up and cooldown frames aren't as relevant when everyone may not be paying attention to you, you have Starshot to clear out people in front if you don't want the ability or just want to hit someone a decent distance away, and the Copy animation has invincibility and releases a hitbox around Kirby with enough knockback to blow people away even at low percents. And once Kirby gains that ability he can act like a FFA Samus or DK and run away, charge Neutral-B, and then KO some unsuspecting opponent or be like FFA Fox or Mario and get some free damage from a safe distance. Knowing Sakurai, it just makes more sense than the move being a poor attempt at being the one 1v1 special.
 

TimG57867

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Messages
447
#26
But does it really help with getting in? In nearly every Smash game where I took the charge shot, I'd either use it as an alternative KO option or to annoy a far away Samus with uncharged shots before she starts resets neutral and starts camping. In the end, it still didn't feel like I absolutely needed it for the match-up compared to something like Project M Ivysaur where you get Solar Beam or Melee/Project M Falco where you get the same landing lagless short hop lasers but can shoot double lasers to Falco's one. Its been a while since I watched Mike Kirby, but I distinctly remember him not going for Inhale much. Looking for Kirby tournament matches, its rare for top performing Kirbys to go for inhale even if the match-up would benefit. What seems to happen is either the Kirby player is doing a good enough job already and thus doesn't feel the need to sacrifice damage or pressure potential by mixing in an Inhale OR they are struggling hard and they don't get the chance to throw an Inhale that will hit in the first place. And all that creativity that can go out the window with 1-2 love taps just makes it not worth it when you could've gone for damage which can't be undone. The benefits of the good abilities just don't make up for the steep negatives of trying to get them.

I brought up Kirby's tier placement to bring in the bigger point about Kirby's moveset consistently not being well designed compared to a lot of other characters. It does not make up for Stone and Hammer being near-worthless moves because Inhale is still pretty bad. Its start-up frames, its range which is actually smaller than the graphic effect and thus can lead to a lot of characters shutting Kirby up if they end up outside the vaccuum pull and are instead in the windbox area, and its ridiculously long cooldown frames will almost always insure Kirby gets punished for a whiffed Inhale just reduce incentive for a player to use it, but throw in certain characters being able to punish Kirby after being Copied and any hit potentially removing your hat and its such poor move that earns its rep for being a move to ignore.

When Kirby's moveset was concieved in Smash 64, all his specials were still bad and Inhale was the worst version of any Smash game. (though Kirby himself was his best version for 1v1s was one of the best characters in that game) I don't think Inhale was ever made to balance out Stone and later Hammer in a 1v1 situation. I bet Inhale was also balanced around FFA usage. After all, the heavy start-up and cooldown frames aren't as relevant when everyone may not be paying attention to you, you have Starshot to clear out people in front if you don't want the ability or just want to hit someone a decent distance away, and the Copy animation has invincibility and releases a hitbox around Kirby with enough knockback to blow people away even at low percents. And once Kirby gains that ability he can act like a FFA Samus or DK and run away, charge Neutral-B, and then KO some unsuspecting opponent or be like FFA Fox or Mario and get some free damage from a safe distance. Knowing Sakurai, it just makes more sense than the move being a poor attempt at being the one 1v1 special.
In the Samus Matchup I use Charge Shot to negate projectiles and bypass Z-Air. I also use Charge Shot as a means of covering approaches when the timing is right. It’s not Kirby’s greatest Copy (that honor goes to Shulk) but it’s definitely one of the potent ones. I vividly remember a POPNOFF set Mike had back in the day with a Samus player he was consistently zoned and snuffed out until he took Charge Shot.

I am quite familiar with MikeKirby’s match history and he used it more often than you think. The thing however is that unfortunately many of Kirby’s hardest matchups, which also happen to be a lot of the most prevalent characters, aren’t dramatically changed much by Inhale. Aside from Sheik and Bayo, Inhale doesn’t do a ton against SSB4’s game’s most dominating characters. This combined with general top player caution is why Copy wasn’t seen too much at top level. Copy is actually quite potent in many matchups but unfortunately a lot of the characters it’s incredible aren’t common so you’re less likely to it at play. Whenever Mike landed it in matches against foes like Megaman, Greninja, Samus, Wii Fit, etc he was able to do considerable work with it. But despite that, I frequently see Kirbies never try it, even in situations where it could legitimately help out. I can understand being cautious and not feeling you’ll get much of it in a certain matchup but tossing that option completely to the wayside overall is not something I can get behind.

This mentality was far more justified in the first 3 games and launch SSB4 as Inhale ad a whole was just too inconsistent to be reliable. But it’s slowly been improved to the point of being a considerable option. Yes, there are only a few matchups I consider it downright MANDATORY to do it, but even in less impactful matchups it’s applications are not to be outright dismissed.

Make no mistake. I am not at all arguing that Copy is something to be done in every matchup at every possible chance. There are matchups where base Inhale is actually better to have after all. However the issue I take is that even when there IS a good case to try it, many Kirbies don’t even consider it. Even when the risk isn’t that severe and the payoff could be big. My overlying argument is that Copy in this day and age is a move that has legitimate applications and should be considered in many matchups. It has its drawbacks as it should but with smart use it can be landed and payoff (Hence why I feel the only truly darning thing about it is the blasted RNG drop rate).

As for the stuff on tiers and Sakurai, I believe I noted Inhale was designed to be as applicable in 1v1 and FFA and I never said that was good design (see my unfortunately). I just feel it likely factored into some of Sakurai’s design choices, flawed as they are. I never said it was effective. Lol
 
Last edited:

metaXzero

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#27
In the Samus Matchup I use Charge Shot to negate projectiles and bypass Z-Air. I also use Charge Shot as a means of covering approaches when the timing is right. It’s not Kirby’s greatest Copy (that honor goes to Shulk) but it’s definitely one of the potent ones. I vividly remember a POPNOFF set Mike had back in the day with a Samus player he was consistently zoned and snuffed out until he took Charge Shot.

I am quite familiar with MikeKirby’s match history and he used it more often than you think. The thing however is that unfortunately many of Kirby’s hardest matchups, which also happen to be a lot of the most prevalent characters, aren’t dramatically changed much by Inhale. Aside from Sheik and Bayo, Inhale doesn’t do a ton against SSB4’s game’s most dominating characters. This combined with general top player caution is why Copy wasn’t seen too much at top level. Copy is actually quite potent in many matchups but unfortunately a lot of the characters it’s incredible aren’t common so you’re less likely to it at play. Whenever Mike landed it in matches against foes like Megaman, Greninja, Samus, Wii Fit, etc he was able to do considerable work with it. But despite that, I frequently see Kirbies never try it, even in situations where it could legitimately help out. I can understand being cautious and not feeling you’ll get much of it in a certain matchup but tossing that option completely to the wayside overall is not something I can get behind.

This mentality was far more justified in the first 3 games and launch SSB4 as Inhale ad a whole was just too inconsistent to be reliable. But it’s slowly been improved to the point of being a considerable option. Yes, there are only a few matchups I consider it downright MANDATORY to do it, but even in less impactful matchups it’s applications are not to be outright dismissed.

Make no mistake. I am not at all arguing that Copy is something to be done in every matchup at every possible chance. There are matchups where base Inhale is actually better to have after all. However the issue I take is that even when there IS a good case to try it, many Kirbies don’t even consider it. Even when the risk isn’t that severe and the payoff could be big. My overlying argument is that Copy in this day and age is a move that has legitimate applications and should be considered in many matchups. It has its drawbacks as it should but with smart use it can be landed and payoff (Hence why I feel the only truly darning thing about it is the blasted RNG drop rate).

As for the stuff on tiers and Sakurai, I believe I noted Inhale was designed to be as applicable in 1v1 and FFA and I never said that was good design (see my unfortunately). I just feel it likely factored into some of Sakurai’s design choices, flawed as they are. I never said it was effective. Lol
Can't you just SH airdodge missles and crouch the Super missles? That match certainly isn't showing up in my searching through MikeKirby vids. which even ones of this year, he's not going for copies much if at all. I've even seen him use Inhale to Starshot on a Cloud and I'd figure Kirby would appreciate a projectile that match-up even if it isn't great Presumably, that Samus match its not uploaded separately and its part of a bigger tournament video. Still, its clear even with videos of this year that Inhale doesn't really come up, let alone Inhale to Copy.

If Inhale is really as buffed as you say, surely some Kirby will make waves with it in Ultimate's life and inspire the rest. But for me, it still seems like way too much trouble for a reward that isn't high enough. Playing Ultimate for the first time yesterday, I still couldn't believe that the actual inhaling range is smaller than the visible wind effect and the the cooldown is still so large. For me, it should have the frame data of at least Project M's Inhale to actually encourage use. That and just straight up remove the RNG hat drop. Until such a thing happens, your average competitive Kirby player will treat Inhale much like Kirby's other specials because their experiences will be more negative than positive.

And after 20 years of watching Kirby's specials be bad in every Smash game, I can't help but be pessimistic.
 

TimG57867

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
447
#28
Can't you just SH airdodge missles and crouch the Super missles? That match certainly isn't showing up in my searching through MikeKirby vids. which even ones of this year, he's not going for copies much if at all. I've even seen him use Inhale to Starshot on a Cloud and I'd figure Kirby would appreciate a projectile that match-up even if it isn't great Presumably, that Samus match its not uploaded separately and its part of a bigger tournament video. Still, its clear even with videos of this year that Inhale doesn't really come up, let alone Inhale to Copy.

If Inhale is really as buffed as you say, surely some Kirby will make waves with it in Ultimate's life and inspire the rest. But for me, it still seems like way too much trouble for a reward that isn't high enough. Playing Ultimate for the first time yesterday, I still couldn't believe that the actual inhaling range is smaller than the visible wind effect and the the cooldown is still so large. For me, it should have the frame data of at least Project M's Inhale to actually encourage use. That and just straight up remove the RNG hat drop. Until such a thing happens, your average competitive Kirby player will treat Inhale much like Kirby's other specials because their experiences will be more negative than positive.

And after 20 years of watching Kirby's specials be bad in every Smash game, I can't help but be pessimistic.

This was the set of note.


I can't blame you for not being able to find it. Getting POPNOFF sets to appear in your searches is a pain. I wish Game5 Smash used better tags.

And yes, I can see where the pessimism comes from. The special was legitimately flat out trash for the longest time and with good play you can often scrape by without it. But over time the move has been improved. Inhale still has room for improvement but I do consider it usable at present and I can definitely see it getting further improved in Ultimate at some point but.

The RNG drop is a real devil but it's something I am willing to put up with for the time being because in my experience Copy has helped me a lot with smart use, even if it can get knocked out at rather crummy times.
 

metaXzero

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
2,586
Location
Under the ground.
#29
This was the set of note.


I can't blame you for not being able to find it. Getting POPNOFF sets to appear in your searches is a pain. I wish Game5 Smash used better tags.

And yes, I can see where the pessimism comes from. The special was legitimately flat out trash for the longest time and with good play you can often scrape by without it. But over time the move has been improved. Inhale still has room for improvement but I do consider it usable at present and I can definitely see it getting further improved in Ultimate at some point but.

The RNG drop is a real devil but it's something I am willing to put up with for the time being because in my experience Copy has helped me a lot with smart use, even if it can get knocked out at rather crummy times.
Thanks for finding that video. I should note though that tournament is a customs on tournament. MikeKirby is using the Jumping Inhale which is significantly better than any other Inhale in an official Smash game since once the vacuum starts, Kirby leaps forward at an aerial speed much better than what he can get from leaping out of run. If Kirby had that as his regular, everyone would use Inhlale, but alas.
 

TimG57867

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
447
#30
Thanks for finding that video. I should note though that tournament is a customs on tournament. MikeKirby is using the Jumping Inhale which is significantly better than any other Inhale in an official Smash game since once the vacuum starts, Kirby leaps forward at an aerial speed much better than what he can get from leaping out of run. If Kirby had that as his regular, everyone would use Inhlale, but alas.
Indeed. The footage showcases the applications of Charge Shot but it also showcases just how much better Kirby’s Customs were than his base moves. Jumping Inhale was basically a bootleg Monkey Flip which makes landing it far safer and missing less dangerous than regular Inhale.

NGL I was kinda hoping they’d replace Final Cutter with Upper Cutter in Kirby’s base moveset for this game but alas.
 
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