how can we push the Ganon meta game

[Kiba]

We should have a thread dedicated to experimenting with mechanics and movement options and different things to help push the meta game, toys is something the jiggly boards are doing, so who's with me?

 

[Superspright]

I'm with you, but most Ganondorfs are convinced his metagame is fully developed or nearly developed. I dunno really. I think we've got more work to do. But we've all experimented with many mechanics and the ones that are most useful seem to already be known. The few that aren't being used as much as they should are shield-drops, and maybe some of the ledge shenanigans.

 

[Kiba]

I'm with you, but most Ganondorfs are convinced his metagame is fully developed or nearly developed. I dunno really. I think we've got more work to do. But we've all experimented with many mechanics and the ones that are most useful seem to already be known. The few that aren't being used as much as they should are shield-drops, and maybe some of the ledge shenanigans.

As a previous puff main I can say that her meta is very developed as well, yet that doesn't stop the puffs from pushing her further, like up until evo dair was considered super situational for puff but Hungrybox did a lot of experimenting with it and found that it's actually able to be used for a lot of things to great efficiency, and about the ledge shenanigans, Ganondorf should be as feared as sheik when on the ledge because of the sheer amount of options he has there but the only things I ever see a Ganon do is either ledge dash or jab onto stage from ledge when if practiced uair onto stage works and auto cancels I believe and I'm fairly sure he has an invincible shield and grab off of ledge invincibility too, not too mention he has two invincible stalls that can be used for mixups.even if we think he is fully developed we should still try pushing him to his limits because he may have more tricks than we think, I mean look at what shroomed did with doc, what wobbles and fly did with icies, what Amsa is doing with Yoshi, what axe is doing with pikachu. I say that we need to band together and push this king of thieves as far as he can go.

 

[-ACE-]

ledgehop uair auto-cancels?

ledgehop uair regrab is underused.

 

[Kiba]

ledgehop uair auto-cancels?

ledgehop uair regrab is underused.

From my experiments with it my fingers haven't been quite fast enough to get the majority of the animation out but quick enough for the hit box to be out and it seemed to auto cancel when I landed without hitting l

 

[Superspright]

He needs an unorthodox play style. He's very slow. He can only move in little bursts at high speed. He NEEDS platforms, but doesn't get as much from them as other characters. He zones, but doesn't do it as well as Peach or Marth. He has great ledge options, but other characters have better ones or equally as good. His grab range is awful. His CG is very hard on the space animals. His shield while big is pokeable. His double jump barely gets him to the top platform of BF. He has a lot of issues. He won't be able to overcome them through sheer willpower or anything. He needs to play to his strengths and negate his weaknesses as much as possible. Once people understand his weaknesses though he gets pummeled pretty hard. Only the best can use their weaknesses as baits or just cover them very well. It's not even an uphill climb for Ganondorf. We have to scale a wall at this point. His meta is very underdeveloped if you think he can win a big tourney again, and that means we do have work to do, but I wouldn't be able to say where. We all seem to just get stuffed unless we're just having a good day.

@Ace

If you screw it up (and it's not hard) you're prolly dead. I personally like doing uair through the stage for the scoop. That's only if the opponent is dumb enough to run up to the ledge. It works on BF.

 

[タオー]

Just a suggestion, but I find the best way to expand the meta game is to focus on the most difficult match ups and how to deal with them. Analyze the options that those characters essentially eliminate and try to optimize the 'limited moveset' they force you to work with. Furthermore, decipher why those options are eliminated (what tools are your opponents using?) and find ways to negate your opponents options that maximize your utility (working around their strategies giving you a stronger advantage).

For example: As a Falcon main, my greatest ally in most cases is Falcon's incredible run speed. Others try to limit that, but the response to that is just to switch up movement and approach in most cases (changing from horizontal to vertical stage movement, DD, WD, MW).

While optimizing movement with Ganon is very important (through WL on platforms, edge cancels, not really sure what else...) he is an overall slow character. You can't play Ganon like Falcon, it just doesn't work, you need to play to Ganon's strengths. His strength happens to be just that, his overwhelmingly powerful moveset. The devastation that a Ganon can unleash in his punish game is frightening. Like Falcon (primarily in the Falco match up) as a Ganon main it is your job to take every possible hit/grab/mistake they make and punish it as hard as you possibly can, especially in losing match ups where the opponent is leaps and bounds faster than you.

Hope that this is helpful, I'm not super familiar with The Dorf, but I want him to get the respect he deserves.

 

[Superspright]

Opponents cease making mistakes on their own and then you have to force them to, and then they get really good at not getting baited into that too. It may be near impossible to fix the bad matchups into our favor or even.

 

[タオー]

Opponents cease making mistakes on their own and then you have to force them to, and then they get really good at not getting baited into that too. It may be near impossible to fix the bad matchups into our favor or even.

I'm aware high level play demands much more out of the player, and I doubt you'll be able to push the match ups in your favor or even, but I think it's foolish to think that Ganondorf is being used in his most optimal way.

Something I've learned through my study of Falcon's game is that even losing match ups can be overcome with cautious and smart play. Much of Ganondorf's high level play must consist of a solid mental game, and use the power of intimidation by means of his powerful moves and punishment to dominate the will of the opponent.

EDIT: I'm aware that my original post seemed to undermine the OP of the thread. I definitely think that optimizing movement for Ganon is very important due to it being one of his greatest weaknesses, so it deserves some serious discussion. I just think you can't talk meaningfully about movement options without discussing them in the context of matchups.

 

[Superspright]

He can't really put reliable pressure on people. Yes, he is intimidating but he's also still slow. Once you get over that he feels pretty easy to crack. The only time a Ganondorf is scary is when his reactions are really solid, and his defensive play is sound. He doesn't fare well approaching at all. His neutral is just not that good. He doesn't have enough options in the neutral to really scoot by the way that Pikachu does for Axe.

 

[タオー]

He can't really put reliable pressure on people. Yes, he is intimidating but he's also still slow. Once you get over that he feels pretty easy to crack. The only time a Ganondorf is scary is when his reactions are really solid, and his defensive play is sound. He doesn't fare well approaching at all. His neutral is just not that good. He doesn't have enough options in the neutral to really scoot by the way that Pikachu does for Axe.

Yea I can see that. What do you feel are Ganon's best options from neutral?

Falcon has maybe 3 approaches at most he can reliably count on(I would say 1 1/2 - instant uair, and nair, but nair has some exploitable weaknesses), 4 if you count his grabs, but most people can react to that.Most of Falcon's high level play is baiting out punishable moves, and he does decently in tournament, but most of that is due to his movement options.

 

[Superspright]

Ganondorf's strongest option in neutral is almost always dash-dance pivot ftilt. Too bad it's very hard to do, and only a few Ganondorfs have ever been able to do it consistently I believe. It's necessary to play at the highest level because it's not such a hard commitment and you can CC afterword. Other than that, retreating bair/fair and you can cross over with uair. His grab is just not long enough, and his speed is too little to score grabs out of neutral without some innovation. He's stifled by having great aerials but terrible landing lag, and having good tilts but dtilt and ftilt are both hard to do out of a dash dance. He commits too hard once he commits. You're basically playing chicken instead of a match up. He doesn't have answers to people the same way others have answers to him. It's tough. Your punishment game has to be flawless, and your ability to avoid getting hit has to be amazing. I don't see this happening any time soon.

 

[タオー]

I see... Well then I feel it's time for Ganon mains to start practicing flawless punishes, and that DD pivot ftilt. What's a common answer for top tiers to that maneuver?

 

[Superspright]

DD Ftilt counters cross-over approaches and when people feel like fading their aerials all over him. It can still be baited and punished. I really don't know what he needs to do.

 

[Acryte]

I love Ganon but increasing his meta to globally change his matchups is unlikely. We have to realize that he may have tools or ways to approach matchups using under-utilized tactics that can change SOME matchups for the better. If you want to globally change his tier you need some sort of new tech or to start using a move in a way we've never used it.

Chances are, you'd need a new glitch, like Ness YYG or something else that's crazy, or you'd need to use a move like nair which of course is very rarely used but may have specific uses since it's not super slow like neutral B and up-tilt.

That said it's more likely we will look for advanced counters to specific strategies on a character by character basis. Which is fine as well. To get things started, we should narrow down avenues with potential... such as, Ganon's weaker options for tech chase. If chain grabs are too hard to do on Spacies, what about using throws to platforms, if so what are the best options available, can we maximize every punish in a consistent way like Armada does to get kills off grabs like Peach? This would at least provide Ganon with more setups into kill. The one advantage Ganon has on spacies is that his high knockback moves can kill them at a low percentage, and put them off the stage easier when he lands hits. We should maximize these strengths.

One thing that Ganon players could benefit from are flow-chart type progressions of move choice.

 

[Superspright]

Ganondorf's edge-guarding potential is on par with Marth's or another high-tier character. But too many Ganondorf's miss opportunities to edge-guard that shouldn't be dropped. That's one thing that needs to be worked on. The CG is not too hard. No one really works on it except for one or two of us. If someone just got it down pat we could see its application in threatening our opponents. CC Grab will lead to death. It will have to be worked around and that's important.

 

[Acryte]

Obviously reverse uair is beast, but to compare Ganon's to Marth's is a bit of a stretch, Ganon must put his foot out while Marth has a much bigger active area for the hitboxes which is much more disjointed. Plus Marth's dair isn't a meteor and hits well below the level. Stomp hits well below too but is meteor cancellable which if properly timed could end up with them grabbing ledge unless you edgecancelled the stomp into ledgegrab etc.

 

[Superspright]

Ganondorf has invincible uair, and bair I believe. He also has invincible get-up jab, ftilt, dtilt, etc. He has a ton of invincible options, and he can punish any on stage recovery. He's very good. He's just not being pushed to the max. Marth has easier tools yes, but Ganondorf's are just as effective--albeit a little harder.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

what ganon players universally need to start abusing:

-invincible ledge options
-shield drops (both from dash and a stationary position)
-pivots

perhaps i don't have the best perspective, but i think the biggest thing holding ganons back is a lack of technical play. the ganons in my region for example all rely heavily on a slower zoning game when that's usually just not enough to succeed. ganon may be slow, but he needs to be played faster.

 

[-ACE-]

Speed means so much. Controlled speed, that is. The faster you are the more openings/opportunities will come your way. It can also serve as good training to increase your reaction speed which is big.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Aight so I was just thinking, is it possible for ganon to effectively utilize parries?

 

[Kiba]

Not sure, how does yoshis work? We should test that
EDIT we should see if we can get this post stickied so we can keep this visible to promote discussion to help test things and get ideas and what not

 

[Superspright]

A parry for Ganondorf is powershield -> Option at best. I dunno. He doesn't really have ways of scooting around stuff whilst attacking. I know up-tilt on powershield is punishable by up-b on a lot of the cast. Lots of the rising aerials are fake on powershield. Powershield can beat certain angles of firefox and be chased by side-b into death. Just situational nonsense that really doesn't do much.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

A parry for Ganondorf is powershield -> Option at best. I dunno. He doesn't really have ways of scooting around stuff whilst attacking. I know up-tilt on powershield is punishable by up-b on a lot of the cast. Lots of the rising aerials are fake on powershield. Powershield can beat certain angles of firefox and be chased by side-b into death. Just situational nonsense that really doesn't do much.

i mean i was just thinking powershield jab? not trying to fool around with up b or side b shenanigans.

 

[Superspright]

Up-B beats up-tilt on powershield. Side-b beats a few things, but not really. It's nice against Marth because he has to shield. It's just a good way to close space mainly. It works against firefox/firebird if they pick a bad angle at go straight at you.

Powershield ftilt is good too sometimes. I mainly wish I could perfect powershield->wavedash out of the lasers so I can punish better. Still hard.

 

[Theoreticallyinsane]

First of all, it seems that there is a bit of confusion in this discussion. Half you are talking about the current definition of the Ganon metagame while another half seem to be talking about redefining the Ganon metagame. I feel like this whole thing would've been more organized if we had started with what a definition of the Ganon metagame is (in general) before following it down to specific matchups looking for instances where we can potentially something quite useable, which is why I'm going to list my personal analysis of Ganon here. Please feel free to add/disagree with me, I sometimes pretend I know what I'm talking about when I really know very little and don't recognize it (I hope this is not the case here), so I implore you to correct me where I may be wrong. I am just a guy who plays Ganon, like most of you are, so we hold the same weight in our words.

The one big thing I have noticed from playing Ganon is that you need to understand and respect that you are inherently slower than other characters, but DO NOT treat Ganon like he is a slow character. That is easily the quickest way for letting your opponent exploit Ganon's weaknesses, and I feel like it is a trap that a lot of Ganon players have fallen into (Myself included). If you play Ganon relying on the safest options, you are actually just limiting your own options, and will naturally be outpaced by the other characters before eventually being afraid to commit out of fear of being punished. In my opinion, it should be the other way around, and your opponent should be afraid of doing something that is not safe out of fear of being punished. As someone earlier said, one of Ganon's biggest tactics is intimidation. Ganondorf is a scary character, and a good Ganon can give off this aura that anything you do that is not safe gets you 42% in dairs or a nice good fair. From there, you just have to play this prediction game around their 'safe' options. Ganon has the benefit of getting good damage for hard reads and having an excellent punish game, but exploiting that comes down to speed, prediction, and execution.

For example: I had the Marth/Ganon matchup explained to me as such; It's actually closer than most people think, ranging from 55/45 (Marth) to 50/50. Marth cannot afford to be above Ganon (like most characters) because his uair beats marths dair. Conversely, Ganon cannot stay above Marth because Marth can poke through platforms, most of his ground moves have some upward presence, and Ganon's dair extends his hurtbox. Because of this, most Ganon/Marth matchups are decided in the neutral game, with potential for both baiting the other player to the upper platforms for setups. On the surface, it would appear as though Marth has an advantage in the neutral game, but the reality is that most of Marth's aerials can be crouch-cancel grabbed by Ganon up to around 45%, who can convert that potentially into offstage, where Marth easily gets edge-guarded by Ganon. Since Ganon's DD pivot f-tilt works wonders on the ground, the only truly safe option for Marth is his dash-grab. From there, a Ganon player can predict and play around that by going for a fullhop aerial (Which may eat a run-in f-Smash if they mis-predict). Both characters other options have similar punishes, both characters are able to KO at early percents and have extremely good edge-guarding capabilities against each other, deeming the match as relatively even. The only thing making the match-up potentially 55/45 is the fact that Marth has slightly more reach (Doesn't extend his hurtbox with ftilt like Ganon) and Ganon is just a little more afraid to shield because Marth has the better grab.

I do not like using the term, "limited options" because that's not entirely true. "Limited viable options," I'll concede on, but the thing is that with Ganon, very few moves are deemed "safe". You'll HAVE to commit if you want the damage, because realistically, nothing is safe for Ganon, and Good reads = Hard damage = Good game.

But that's where the mind-games start. I'll be honest, I think that it is highly unlikely that we will be able to find something that can push Ganon's technical skill any further than it has already been pushed. I welcome anyone who can jump in the lab and find, for instance, a situation where nair would be an ideal option (What I believe to be the actual purpose for this thread's continuation), but calling that a push of his meta-game is a stretch. The real meta-game for Ganon is the mindgame. I'd recommend trying to compare Tommy Tipman and Kage to any Ganon player. Despite Tipman's peak being 7 years ago, you may notice that they do essentially nothing TECHNICALLY different. The biggest difference is that the puff players were not Hungrybox at the time, and reverse uair used to be really good for getting them from 50% to (kill off of a bair)% because it out-ranged the surfboards. However, if you watch a lot of Kage, you'll notice that his biggest thing is that everything he does with his character has purpose, and he does not do THAT many things that are technically difficult (There are Ganons that do and do well, they're just not Kage). He will literally never just throw out a move to throw out a move. You might think you can say that about a lot of other smashers (I find it true about Armada as well, for instance), but it is really the fact that he is never on autopilot as his Ganon. He is always, always, always; thinking, predicting, acting proactively against the opponent, because Ganon requires that much awareness in order to get the hard reads. I'd call Ganon (or at least Kage's Ganon) a character that is 80% mindgames with a 20% technical skill to back it up, more than I'd call any other character in the top 8, and that's where I think the Ganon metagame is really headed.

 

[-ACE-]

There ARE times when nair is best.

Marth beats Ganon worse than 55/45. It's not even and never was. Not many Marths specialize in fighting Ganon, but most good Ganons know the marth mu.

Kage has great tech skill. Tech skill is mostly just having control of your character. He's not overly flashy, though and I believe that's what you were saying.

I don't quite understand what you mean in the "limited options" part. Ganon's options are certainly limited. What if dorf had a wd and run speed like Fox's? And a dd like Captain Falcon's? It would open up a whole new world.

The key to the metagame is understanding options and playing your opponent, not just his character. The rest is fundamentals/tech skill/consistency. Imo.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I agree that Mindgames are very important, and where the meta is headed. I will admit, I am a technical player. But due to my mindgames, I can actually use that tech skill to my advantage. I see spacies sometimes, who try to do cool stuff, and nothing else, and so they suck.

irrelevant: Lemon dash with Doc and Mario is insane

Ganon's jab is one of my favorite moves in melee.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Chaingrabs should be used more

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Chaingrabs should be used more

easier said than done. optimally, a grab on a space animal or sheik should convert into a kill.

 

[-ACE-]

Chaingrabs should be used more

I couldn't agree more. It's a shame not many people practice it. It's called Maximizing punishment. Techchasing can lead to a KO sooner but is seldom guaranteed. Chaingrabbing is BOSS.

 

[Nicco]

Some of you might already know this, others may not, but if you do either uair or bair rising early enough and fast fall immediately, it will autocancel. People will expect lag, instead they get jabbed or tilted.
Another great trick is crouching while jabbing. If you hold the control stick at a very specific backwards diagonal angle, you can crouch while jabbing. Every Ganon should start doing this!!

I'm pretty sure S2J does this, and that's why his gents are so consistant, since the crouch will interrupt the jabs.

My favorite approach with ganon is perfect waveland inte crouch canceled jab. If you get hit, you'll just cc it and jab em anyway. If they shield or cc you will have solid pressure, because crouching allows you to do multiple jabs alot faster. (IASA)

Obviosly learn shield dropping!

We need chain grabs! This is something that you can actually practice very well on lvl 1 cpus. Their DI pattern is predictable, but they do at least 4 different DIs, and rarely the same twice.

Covering more options when we tech chase is also important.

Some people may be startled by this last trick, but I promise you, it's not nearly as hard as it sounds. It's extremely cool though.
Powershield > jab/tilt/gerudo dragon!
I use the trigger trick, and I also played a bit of Yoshi in the past, so it comes naturally for me, but it really isn't that hard. Most ppl powershield projectiles, but attacks are much easier, since you have 4 frames instead of 2.

 

[-ACE-]

You brought up some good points. Lvl 1 cpu's DI full behind though iirc. it's arguably the hardest regrab to get so it's good practice but they do not vary their DI. Unless you have a different version of melee.

Shield DI is big also imo.

 

[Schwamus]

Where I do think we can evolve tech for Ganon is in his shield pressure. I feel like IF (and that's a big if) there is one unexplored aspect to his game it is in whittling down shields and going all Westballz on people with some optimized moves. Nicco's example of the CC jabs is one thing that we might be able to use (similar to Samus shield pressure). Or maybe crossup Up Air where both the initial and Tipman hitboxes connect into a turnaround jab?

 

[TheMentaculus]

Cross-up U-air sounds legit, but I'm pretty sure that the hitbox doesn't refresh. If you hit with the strong front part on sheild I don't think the rest of the U-air will hit the person at all. I'm not sure about that and I don't have a setup to go into the lab, but I think that's how it works. I do like the idea of crossing up in general if they are turtling in their shield. Unfortunately the opportunity doesn't present itself too often, and really grabs lead into such huge openings for Ganon that I will almost always take them when I see I have the chance.

Also yeah, lvl 1's do full behind DI. That is the way I practice my CG. If you can do a JC grab behind you, you can do one in front of you. Iirc, lvl 9's do the slightly forward DI that gets the greatest height (for people who know the Ganon MU, some might go for this since it gives you the earliest opportunity to jump out) so they might also be useful for practicing. I pride myself on CGs. I will honestly do them in friendlies without hesitation, and I'm proud to say that I've gotten a number of sheiks in my community to also start optimizing their grab situations. Just CG every opp. you get, and you get better. It's ridiculous. Personally I can't imagine the sheik MU without them, they are just so effective.

Also pretty sure it's common knowledge by now, but best places to use N-air, imo, are on early percent d-throws to throw them off. 0% marth that DIs slightly forward. Get some extra dmg. Most obvious place is to extend a combo one more hit into F-air or other suitable finisher. Another one I want to start messing around with is when they're sheilding on platform and you're below. Full jump N-air on their sheild. It might even AC on BF, though I can't test atm. If it does, -> grab if their shield is still up, or -> U-air chain or whatever if you got em.

I like all this PS stuff, sounds interesting.

Also yes to Shield drops. I am so guilty of not using these even though they are crazy useful and not too hard to perfect. Legit guys, a week of focused practice and any one of us should be able to do it consistently. AT LEAST consistently enough to start using it in friendlies, and to begin finding out where to implement it into our tournament play.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

We are not wavelanding enough. We are not maximizing our wavedashes enough. The more that we waveland and wavedash in neutral the more unpredictable we can become. Do you know how scary it is to SH and do a full waveland toward your opponent into a jab out of nowhere? That catches people off guard a lot and we don't abuse it nearly enough. When wavelanding off of platforms we can even mix up the timings of when we waveland by deciding to double jump or not. We can even waveland from below the platform or go above the platform, then come down on top of it and then waveland. There's so many different timings to Ganon's wavelanding ability and I really don't think we've tried to take it to its full advantage. We almost have to be playing more like Renth, but using the wavelands to bring out baits from the opponent and manipulate them to do what we want them to do. We need to perfect the distance of the wavelands and make sure that we can waveland and pretty much anytime. The cool thing about wavelanding is that you are still on the ground when you are moving fast, so if someone hits you, as long as you ASDI down, you'll still be fine. You'll want to do the wavelanding a bit away from your opponent, but a perfect waveland goes so far in that you could probably even cross up people on their shield with your movement. Even off stage wavelanding can be used to reach great distances to hit the opponent away with upair or bair and make it back to the stage. The most crucial part about wavelanding is not messing it up, because a missed waveland can result in you losing a stock, so it is imperative that you practice wavelanding by yourself all the time and make sure that you are accurate with wavelanding first before you try to maximize the distance. Hell, even vs Falco this is still possible with platforms, as wavelanding on platforms around Falco's lasers can help with closing the distance on him and jabbing his damn face.

I also think we do not abuse jab nearly enough as a way to stop the opponent in the middle of something or to get out of something. It comes out in 3 frames and actually has some decent range. CC to jab is ****ing brutal and isn't abused nearly enough.

 

[TheMentaculus]

^ That is a great. I had been thinking about that in looser terms (mainly about doing the WL on the apex of the jump on DL64 vs. doing the double jump waveland and mixing it up) but hearing it described so clearly and how many ways it's applicable really makes you understand what an amazing tool the Dorf's waveland is.

And I hadn't really thought about being able to ASDI down while wavelanding. That is true I'll have to pay a lot more attention to it when I play.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Wavelanding in can even be a bait of sorts at low percents. You can waveland into them and if they insist on jabbing or hitting you with a move, you're already holding down do you ASDI the move down and can immediately punish with a grab or jab or something. Being on the ground has its benefits.

 

[Schwamus]

While on the subject of wavelanding (to any ganons that don't already know this): Ever hit someone up on battlefield and not been able to follow up because they land on the top platform? An extremely quick way to get to the top platform is to jump, DJ then waveland. Ganon's DJ gets him just high enough where he can pretty easily perfect waveland on the top platform. Usually I will just Westballz-esque waveland in place, but an INCREDIBLE bait that I've gotten on almost everyone I play is to chase them to the top platform, waveland off the platform so that when they inevitably come down with a dair (looking at you falco) you dodge it then immediately DJ back and fair the **** out of them.

Edit: To clarify, the scenario is that you hit them towards the top from center stage (e.g. a dair while the opponent is grounded). If they land on the platform and don't tech, you can use the sideways waveland, DJ + fair to punish getup attacks. If they do tech/techroll, you can waveland towards them and jab/ grab if you are precise about it. If they are at too high of a % to land on the platform, then use the sideways waveland because the chase will appear to be an overextension and they more often than not will try to counter it with a falling areal.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Running shield drops need to start being used. I don't know why people don't just learn them. They aren't nearly as hard as regular shield drops. All you do is literally just press shoulder button and down while running. That's it and you through the platform in a single frame.

Now here's a cool thing you can do with it. Go to battlefield. Double jump waveland off a lower platform and then immediately jump to the upper platform. You will find that if you time it right (the timing is stupidly easy) that you perfect land on that platform. This means you can immediately 1 frame shield drop and come down with an aerial. You can mixup the timings of this by shield dropping but then double jumping back onto the top platform into a mini waveland and then dropping through again. Or you could do a waveland loop between the lower and upper platform. From this loop you gain two options:

1. Waveland back off the top platform to the lower platform and then waveland to the ledge
2. Waveland back off the top platform to the lower platform and then waveland to center stage
3. Waveland forward off the top platform and then you have these same options from the lower and upper platforms of the other side
4. Waveland forward off the top platform and drop straight down
5. Waveland backward off the top platform and drop straight down
6. Perfect land and Immediately shield drop from the upper platform coming down with an aerial
7. Perfect land and wait on the top platform
8. Perfect land and run backwards off the top platform
9. Perfect land and run forwards a bit before shield dropping to throw your opponent off with the timing. You also get a different spacing

When you think about it, these are a lot of options that allow you a lot of flexibility in your movement and where you can go. In the new meta, everyone and their grandma tries to camp out Ganon and will give you a lot of space. I find Fox players tend to do this a lot. You can use this space to your advantage and basically wait until they do something unsafe. The most common thing I punish is when the Fox is lasering right under the lower platform on the other side of the stage from me. The shield drop fair comes down on him so fast that he's often not expecting it and suddenly I've got him offstage and am in control.

This waveland loop can be performed on all stages (except for pokemon) that have platforms. The issue on the other stages is that the loop is much harder to perform and you do not perfect land on the top platform of those stages when you do it. The fact that you perfect land after the loop on battlefield gives you a lot of fast options out of the loop that other stages don't provide. This is one of the many reasons you should never strike battlefield. Everyone knows Yoshi's is godlike for Ganon, so it always gets banned. But many players will refuse to ban battlefield. You need to take advantage of this and abuse battlefield as much as Yoshi's is abused.