Hope Will Never Die! - Lucina Thread

Arthur97

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#81
Because Smash doesn't have a story or character progression, it's had a total of one 'plot' across 4 games. The only way to illustrate, within a fighting game, that someone is pretending to be another person is to have them fight like that person, since that's pretty much the only expression of character in the game. There's taunts, entry and winning animations and sound clips to go alongside the moves that you use. Everything else has to be demonstrated by how they fight. So if she's masquerading as him, then she's a clone in some way.



And I think that's a fair point. She does more than that in her game and nobody can fault you for wanting to see her be more than just 'Masked Marth'. BUT if someone else thinks that her position as Masked Marth is a significant part of her in the story then have that discussion, stop bringing it back to 'how would she even be able to mimic her acestor one millenium removed', ask IS, they had her do it.
Wouldn't a masked Lucina costume accomplish the same ends without having to ignore other parts of her and over emphasizing the disguise? Surely that disguise does not warrant being the foundation of her playstyle.
 

Just a random scrub

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#82
I really hope she returns in her own slot. I agree they should declone her and make her quite different from Marth this time. Giving her a lance would be great, but I'm not sure if they would change her that much

Out of the 3 clones I think she has the best chance to come back, and if we are lucky, with many changes
Honestly, going off their status as moveset clones, none of them have particularly good odds, but I would say Doc has the best chance of the three, due to being more unique than either of them moveset wise (he brings back Mario's old Melee down air and down special, whereas Lucina and Dark Pit had almost nothing different from Marth and Pit), and I'd argue her chances are the worst going off their differences from the scource character alone. It is still hard to imagine her vanishing completely; she would probably come back as a Marth alt as she was intended to be in the first place. (Even though Lance Lucina would be great, and I support it)

(it's also a shame that so many call her Girl Marth going off her extremely lazy Smash design alone. If only people knew about her in canon, they'd realize just how unique she really is)
 
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DNeon

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#83
Wouldn't a masked Lucina costume accomplish the same ends without having to ignore other parts of her and over emphasizing the disguise? Surely that disguise does not warrant being the foundation of her playstyle.
Its possible to argue that for most characters, especially clones. I'm not saying that Lucina shouldn't break away into a new moveset. Just that, especially from the designers perspective, the character has justified reason to be a clone. It obviously sucks to have your favourite character get in but not live up to their potential. Happened with me and Tink. For your sake I hope Lucina doesn't end up in a Ganondorf situation and miss out on her potential, but at least she's somewhat present currently.
 

Arthur97

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#84
Its possible to argue that for most characters, especially clones. I'm not saying that Lucina shouldn't break away into a new moveset. Just that, especially from the designers perspective, the character has justified reason to be a clone. It obviously sucks to have your favourite character get in but not live up to their potential. Happened with me and Tink. For your sake I hope Lucina doesn't end up in a Ganondorf situation and miss out on her potential, but at least she's somewhat present currently.
At the very least, please let her have her unique idle stance. Even Warriors did that much. Fixing her voice lines would probably help accuracy too. Less arrogance; more determination. I cannot lose could even work as one of her if it's done so that it's more like she cannot afford to lose.

Also, if Marth finally speaks English in Smash now, having an accurate Marth that people can understand might help people see some differences.
 

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#85
Just wanted to come here and say for the record that I hope Lucina returns! I prefer her over Marth.

I don't care if they keep her as a clone or declone her to be the first lance-wielder, I just want her back!
 

VGamer01

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#86
Not going to lie, its a little upsetting to see alot of roster list would axe lucina. I mean i get that they want the clones gone or less fire emblem... But some rosters ive seen just keep dr.mario and dark pit and only axe lucina, axes lucina for a future fe character and/or another lord from an older game(or anna from the mobile game) and keep the other fe characters.
I get some people decisions on these, but there nonsensical to me. Why cut 1 character that you can semiclone, while the other 2 are there? Why cut the 1 of the most popular FE females, thats already in the roster for someone less popular than her, especially if shes easy to add.

Appologize for the venting but man the smash community brings a dark side to me :-/
 

Morbi

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#89
I went there. She seemed to have a relatively low want %.
Eh, it is just because she was used as a clone and not a particularly good one. They just removed the tipper mechanic and her model was blatantly rushed (you can tell she was just meant to be a costume). If I was not a Lucina fan, I would not really WANT her to return either. Beyond that, she comes from one of the most stacked and yet least deserving to be stacked series in the franchise history. Lastly, she is a SECOND clone. I believe that is a first for Smash. People are going to prefer Roy because he was "Luigified" and has seniority.

Honestly, I would be surprised if she WAS wanted.
 
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#90
Not going to lie, its a little upsetting to see alot of roster list would axe lucina. I mean i get that they want the clones gone or less fire emblem... But some rosters ive seen just keep dr.mario and dark pit and only axe lucina, axes lucina for a future fe character and/or another lord from an older game(or anna from the mobile game) and keep the other fe characters.
I get some people decisions on these, but there nonsensical to me. Why cut 1 character that you can semiclone, while the other 2 are there? Why cut the 1 of the most popular FE females, thats already in the roster for someone less popular than her, especially if shes easy to add.

Appologize for the venting but man the smash community brings a dark side to me :-/
I can at least understand Dr Mario (his different down B and down air alone are enough justification for him IMO), but yeah, there is really no reason at all to cut Lucina and not Dark Pit (and vice versa)
 

Morbi

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#91
I can at least understand Dr Mario (his different down B and down air alone are enough justification for him IMO), but yeah, there is really no reason at all to cut Lucina and not Dark Pit (and vice versa)
It might just be as simple as different animations. Dark Pit has the slower purple arrows whereas Pit has the swift blue arrows and their different gauntlets. Pit's has fire and Dark Pit's has lightning. I do not know, but at least visually, it can sort of trick you into seeing more differences, at least.

Think about it, some people convinced themselves that Wolf was not just a semi-clone, but even just a clone in general, solely because his specials "look" similar.

It is not as though most people pride themselves on consistent logic anyways.
 

Mewtwo

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#93
Lastly, she is a SECOND clone. I believe that is a first for Smash. People are going to prefer Roy because he was "Luigified" and has seniority.
Well, um, Dr. Mario is a second clone of Mario (after Luigi), and Wolf was a second clone of Fox (after Falco), and Toon Link is technically a second clone of Link if you consider him different from Young Link.

I still don't get all the clone hate (except for Falcondorf). I prefer Lucina over Marth, and Dark Pit over Pit. Many people have been drawn to the clones historically, in fact. Remember when everyone used Roy instead of Marth in Melee? Remember when people preferred Young Link because he was faster? Remember how Ganondorf in Melee was amazing even though he was a clone?

In the past I think only Pichu was sort of derided from the beginning, and for good reason (it sucks) but people would still play as Pichu just to pwn their friends with the 'worst' character. Clones are fun. Keep them, I say.
 

Arthur97

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#94
Eh, it is just because she was used as a clone and not a particularly good one. They just removed the tipper mechanic and her model was blatantly rushed (you can tell she was just meant to be a costume). If I was not a Lucina fan, I would not really WANT her to return either. Beyond that, she comes from one of the most stacked and yet least deserving to be stacked series in the franchise history. Lastly, she is a SECOND clone. I believe that is a first for Smash. People are going to prefer Roy because he was "Luigified" and has seniority.

Honestly, I would be surprised if she WAS wanted.
Doc and Luigi. It's actually a somewhat similar case. If given more time, Roy may end up like Luigi. I think she may be a bit less expressive or something, but what looks rushed to you, and why would that mean alt? As far as I'm aware the other alt models are on par with the rest of the cast.

The attacks on her character may have been the worst part of it though.

Went to do my part and increased that want % higher than what it currently was.
Good, because if I spend too much time there, I will probably get into an argument.
 
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#95
Well, um, Dr. Mario is a second clone of Mario (after Luigi), and Wolf was a second clone of Fox (after Falco), and Toon Link is technically a second clone of Link if you consider him different from Young Link.
Dr Mario and Toon Link are both indeed second clones, but I will preach this till I die. Wolf is NOT a clone. To give you a quick TLDR, none of his normal moves are similar at all, their general animations are very different, their physics and playstyles are radically different, and in short, they share nothing at all except getup animations and their Final Smash (their special moves, while named similarly, operate very differently from Fox and Falco's to where it borders on in name only).
 
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Arthur97

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#96
Dr Mario and Toon Link are both indeed second clones, but I will preach this till I die. Wolf is NOT a clone. To give you a quick TLDR, none of his normal moves are similar at all, their general animations are very different, their physics and playstyles are radically different, and in short, they share nothing at all except getup animations and their Final Smash (their special moves, while named similarly, operate very differently from Fox and Falco's to where it borders on in name only).
While I mostly agree about Wolf, convincing some people of that seems about as likely as convincing some people that Lucina is not female Marth. Never mind the facts.
 
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Mewtwo

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#97
To be honest I never really played as Wolf. His specials are obviously modified versions of Fox's specials (à la Lucas and Ness), and I did read that his down aerial is taken from Ike (which Roy also copied), but I don't know about the rest of his moves.
 
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#98
To be honest I never really played as Wolf. His specials are obviously modified versions of Fox's specials (à la Lucas and Ness), and I did read that his down aerial is taken from Ike (which Roy also copied), but I don't know about the rest of his moves.
Eh, If you ask me, his down air looks more like Diddy Kongs. But yeah, Wolf did take some animations from a variety of characters (probably because he may have been one of the final characters added into the game),
 

IceAnt573

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#99
68.46% Chance
58.38% Want
For her day on the RTC thread.

All things considered, I'm glad that want score is higher than I thought it would be. Leaning towards wanting her back more than there isn't.
 

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I thought I already posted in this thread but I guess I didn't. Anyway, Brave Lucina is probably in my top 3 wants for Smash Switch. If she actually gets a Roy style rework into Brave Lucina I would main her in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, I'm not especially confident that will happen but Sakurai is consistently hard to read.

If they just keep her exactly the way she is in Smash 4 then I'd rather she either wasn't in the game at all or was just an alt to Marth like the two Wii Fits.

*Laughing hysterically at the idea of Lucina competing with Squirtle for a spot on the roster*
 

Sean Wheeler

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I actually want Lucina to remain as a full-on clone of Marth. Every buff and nerf applied to Marth on the switch Switch should be applied to Lucina. No decloning or Luigification. That way you can practice a match between two different characters with the same moves. Sure the tipper can stay. But maybe we would want clones to practice fighting someone with your character's moves without the confusion of fighting the same character wondering who the impostor is.
 

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I actually want Lucina to remain as a full-on clone of Marth. Every buff and nerf applied to Marth on the switch Switch should be applied to Lucina. No decloning or Luigification. That way you can practice a match between two different characters with the same moves. Sure the tipper can stay. But maybe we would want clones to practice fighting someone with your character's moves without the confusion of fighting the same character wondering who the impostor is.
Huh...?

Needless to say, the clone trio in Sm4sh was interesting because they were probably the cloniest we've ever gotten (less so Dr. Mario) but Sakurai reminded us that they're actually not really clones, but glorified alternate costumes. He didn't think Dark Pit worked as a costume while still using Pit's Final Smash, and he didn't think Lucina should be as tall as Marth. And I guess they didn't have time to really differentiate them more than that.

Now that they potentially have time, I'd say that there's a good chance, if Lucina returns, that she would be luigified. Of course we'll have to wait and see.
 

Arthur97

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Huh...?

Needless to say, the clone trio in Sm4sh was interesting because they were probably the cloniest we've ever gotten (less so Dr. Mario) but Sakurai reminded us that they're actually not really clones, but glorified alternate costumes. He didn't think Dark Pit worked as a costume while still using Pit's Final Smash, and he didn't think Lucina should be as tall as Marth. And I guess they didn't have time to really differentiate them more than that.

Now that they potentially have time, I'd say that there's a good chance, if Lucina returns, that she would be luigified. Of course we'll have to wait and see.
Honestly, as much as I like her, I'm worried about her returning, and even if she does, while she may get something, I doubt she'll ever reach her full potential given Sakurai's stubbornness when it comes to stuff like this.
 

Sean Wheeler

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Lucina is barely shorter than Marth. Only one inch? She could work as a costume with that small difference. But I don't really like alternate costumes in Smash. I prefer the default costumes and don't like how Alph is an alt for Olimar and Bowser Jr. has all of his brothers as costumes. Especially Roy Koopa who has the same name as a certain Melee character that made Fire Emblem popular enough to go global. Inkling Boy and Inkling Girl were shown in the Smash Switch teaser and it seems likely that Inkling Boy would be a costume for Inkling Girl, so the gender alts are still there. And Lucina has went by Marth before. And I want her to stay the same as Marth. But I also want her to have her own spot on the character select screen and not be a Marth alt. Lucina is to Marth what Supergirl is to Superman.
 

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I've made Lucina as one of my secondaries, having lots of fun with her. She's far easier to play than Marth, that's for sure. I was never too good in landing tippers anyway.

Want her to return in Smash Switch badly.
 

Arthur97

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True. I wanna see all the tweaks she gets in ultimate soon, like maybe a faster dancing blade and can angle shieldbreaker upwards diagonally as marth showed off in the direct
I imagine if he gets it, so will she. Oh, and at least one benefit to this is that she gets listed after Marth earlier. Well, it alienates her from her debut game, but she's earlier in lists.

Edit: The trailer actually confirmed as much for Dancing Blade. Roy too.
 
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Not cut is good enough for me. Hoping she is better than marth this time so I can play her instead of him but either is good with me. Im just glad there wasnt any need to fight for them as DLC or something along with/instead of Roy.
:061:
 

Arthur97

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I do wish they had done a bit more though. So far, only three maintain "Echo" status. Why not change her like they did with Roy, Doc, or even Toon Link?
 

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Kinda off topic but I'm wondering what the differences between Toon and Young Link will be to justify not having one Echo the other, but that might also be more of a semantics things since Toon Link never directly clones Young Link.
 
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I imagine if he gets it, so will she. Oh, and at least one benefit to this is that she gets listed after Marth earlier. Well, it alienates her from her debut game, but she's earlier in lists.

Edit: The trailer actually confirmed as much for Dancing Blade. Roy too.
yeah I saw that on thEt railer.I was looking for Lucina only specific moves /combos/techniques though they haven't said anything on that besides she probably doesn't have tipper again like smash four.

i will say though I'm liking the new character design of her in her main portrait of ultimate.looks really sleek <3
 

Folt

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Kinda off topic but I'm wondering what the differences between Toon and Young Link will be to justify not having one Echo the other, but that might also be more of a semantics things since Toon Link never directly clones Young Link.
Toon Link doesn't have the legs to do the usual Link kicks in his moveset. (Otherwise, Young Link appears to be more of an evolution of the original Link moveset while Link and Toon Link have themselves changed by the time Young Link could come back. Also: different proportions so simply pasting the Y!Link model over the Toon Link skeleton is a no-no.)

Like, here's some notable differences:

Dr. Mario
- Mario's Mario Tornado became his dair when his Down Special became the FLUDD. Dr. Mario kept the og dair and his Tornado is still his special. That his moveset is different from Mario's because Mario got changed is more than enough to differentiate him and let him keep his separate roster spot.

Young Link
- BOTW Link has remote-controlled bombs now. Toon Link can't do anything using his legs because they're stubby. So similiar to Dr. Mario, Young Link is different by essentially staying the same as he was. Also, different proportions.

Pichu
- Probably has to do with his proportions as to why he is not an Echo Fighter. Pichu's proportions are different enough that simply pasting it onto a Pikachu skeleton is... probably not gonna work. Besides that, we do not know his whole moveset, so there's possibly other changes lurking behind his inclusion as his own fighter.

Compare that to the Echo Fighters who use what's basically the same moveset with only statistical changes, and have similiar proportions to their parent characters, and it's pretty clear why the above mentioned three are treated as actual separate fighters while the Echo Fighters are treated as... well... echoes of existing ones.
 

Arthur97

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yeah I saw that on thEt railer.I was looking for Lucina only specific moves /combos/techniques though they haven't said anything on that besides she probably doesn't have tipper again like smash four.

i will say though I'm liking the new character design of her in her main portrait of ultimate.looks really sleek <3
It is. To me, the Fire Emblem characters seem...different this time. Maybe it's the dynamic hair in Lucina and Marth's portraits, but Lucina, Marth, Ike, and the Robins seem a bit...different to me. Either way, Lucina's is great. At least it's not Mario or Luigi's.

One of the big things about the Echo title and number placement makes it feel like there is little hope of them escaping that fate. Would it have been too much to give something? One move?
 
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I do wish they had done a bit more though. So far, only three maintain "Echo" status. Why not change her like they did with Roy, Doc, or even Toon Link?
I think they kept her the same because they thought a beginner Marth was still something important to have to ease players into Marth himself.
 

Arthur97

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I think they kept her the same because they thought a beginner Marth was still something important to have to ease players into Marth himself.
What about Dark Pit then?

Still, given what they've done for most of the clones, they could have done something. I don't like her being relegated to "beginner Marth" either. Perpetuates the "just girl Marth" thing.
 
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