• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Honing Zard's ledge guard game:

Indigo_

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 14, 2015
Messages
39
I was wondering what options you all use to cover ledge get ups, ledge hops, ledge rolls, and waiting on ledge. I am going to be testing out some new options this week.

I usually just flamethrower from max distance and punish their adaptation or go for a grab on ledge get up.
 

Muskrat Catcher

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 13, 2015
Messages
486
Location
Aliso Viejo, California
3DS FC
0748-4100-0093
No guts no glory for me! I love to go for a read at the ledge, usually with F-smash or if I want to read a jump I use Fly, U-air, or F-air. Sure I could tack on like 7% with flamethrower or rock smash or a reactionary tilt, but forget that I'm going all in!

BTW I am by no means recommending this for anyone else, but I love getting reads too much to change. Even if I only hit 1 in 5 times I still consider it worth

I guess if I want to play it safe I often SH Nair. That covers pretty much everything. BUT WHERE IS THE HYPE?
 
Last edited:

pacha

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
23
Location
Omaha, NE
NNID
DeLiwanyanoNika
3DS FC
0877-2647-5564
Against most of the cast I will try a spike mixing it up with fair Bair and nair as well as going for stage spikes with Bair or up b to ledge. Ledge trump to Bair work situationally.

I think it's smart to go for a kill when edgeguarding as charizard because these are your best odds and the power is there. In short reads can pay off more here.

Fox, falco, ness, lucas. Stuff jumps and side by w/ flamethrower, run off spike immediately. Ness and lucas have an option of dropping lower to avoid this or can go closer to/ under the stage. Watch out. Don't try this too many times.

Falcon, mario, little mac, ryu, and characters with recoveries like theirs, I use flamethrower to mess them up. If they buffer an up b and it triggers at the wrong time they will pop up over the ledge, f-smash if at kill percent, f-tilt is safer, make sure to angle it appropriately.

Use flamethrower and condition them to roll. Next time just start flamethrower then down or f-smash to catch the roll.

SH nair tippers can be amazing. And up smash is good for catching jumps.

Whatever you do mix it up and know how to exploit any recovery weaknesses the other character may have. Charizard is now more mobile in the air, meaning you can now go a little deeper for the kill and safely return.

I'd also like to remind everyone that its good to think of edgeguarding as extending to just keeping an opponent from landing, charizard has a lot of great antiair options. I get a lot of kills baiting air dodges and using up b, up air, up smash, ect.

One last thing, don't try spiking sheik unless your way ahead. Vanish can hurt.
 

Jmacz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
304
Location
Mass
NNID
aWildJmacz
I generally just go for Flamethrower and try to punish if they overshoot the ledge, or just straight out gimp them (poor Captain Falcon). I'll also do N-Air, Jab, or the occasional D-Smash to mix things up. Another thing I like to do every once in a while is extended dash dance real close to the ledge and then run in and jump cancel an Up Smash. It doesn't work all the time but if they jump it will work. When you dash away a lot of times they will jump up because it seems safe but if you turn back quickly and jump cancel it will work perfectly. I've found it's best to save it for when you're fishing for a kill because once you hit it they will learn to expect it.
 

Marrow

Speak softly and carry a Thick Club
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
703
Location
did you check under the couch cushions
3DS FC
1993-9950-1450
I personally like a well spaced backair. With proper time and place it can cover neutral, attack and jump getup. 20-something frames of landing lag mean potential punishes if you miss, but if you can condition them into the right option it can land an early stock.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,707
Location
Santa Ana, CA
If you look at the frame data of all four ledge options, the first vulnerable frame of every character will be as quick as 13 or as late as 35. There are four exceptions with Palutena and the three Mii characters having a first vulnerable frame of 44 on getup for some reason. But you can't afford to be late, because the opponent can act just a few frames after their vulnerable frame, except for ledge roll which has something closer to 20 endlag before they can act. Ruling out the fringe case of Paltena/Mii's ledge getup, a move with at least 23 active frames covers all of that with no need to read. But there's more you need to consider. You have no idea when the opponent will choose an option until you notice their subtle animation. And there's mixups involving their ability to wait, or let go and jump onstage. So to actually cover all ledge options you need something with enough active frames, and with as little startup to cover your reaction timing of noticing they input something. Rock Smash has 23 active frames (most of it is residue damage), but 24 startup. It's impossible to see ZSS's animation for ledge jump and hit her when her first vulnerable frame is 13 and the move your using is active on 24. You would have to input rock smash pre-emptively and hope they don't decide to wait at least a little while to notice the move you're doing and their opportunity to punish. In other words, it's a read. We don't want to read. Finally, spacing is another restriction. Ledge roll has the opponent vulnerable beginning at about the end of the distance they travel, the other three have them vulnerable right there at the ledge. That's a lot of horizontal space to cover. Going back to the Rock Smash option, you can't space it in a way that covers both ledge roll and the other three at the same time, you'd have to make a choice here in spacing - another read.

Flamethrower will have more luck when used pre-emptively. It reaches far enough, so far you can't be reasonably punished from their position, and the flames are active for long enough. The only problem is that flamethrower won't do much for you. Doesn't lead to a kill, would only singe them for 2 or 3% guaranteed damage before they can get over or grab the ledge again, and eventually peters out or autospaces to push you too far from the ledge. It's not a great option, but it's the best choice for strictly guaranteed damage. A charizard main might instead prefer to hang back and prepare for a dash grab on ledge getup, attack, or roll. Jump is the least reasonable to grab, but they are putting themselves in a position above you, which is still advantageous in its own way.
 

Minty42

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 30, 2016
Messages
2
The first hit of Fly will force untechable stage spikes if you hit ledgesnap. You have to use it immediately as you walk offstage or else you'll be low enough for the the following hits to save them from the spike.

Edit: Footage taken from friendlys
 
Last edited:

Pixel_

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 28, 2015
Messages
881
The first hit of Fly will force untechable stage spikes if you hit ledgesnap. You have to use it immediately as you walk offstage or else you'll be low enough for the the following hits to save them from the spike.
How hard is it for the move to land? Does it still take a ton of timing?
 
Last edited:

kendikong

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
279
Other than flamethrower, if they're about 60% I'd just hover above using my jumps and go for a solid back air. Space it well, and it will cover roll, get up attack, and jump
 

Minty42

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 30, 2016
Messages
2
How hard is it for the move to land? Does it still take a ton of timing?
First hit of fly has 2 active frames, ledgesnap is 2 frames. It's not impossible. B-sticking, my input is
:GCCUR:,:GCD: My timing isn't great but I hit it about 1 out of 4 times in FG against characters with susceptible recoveries. Definitely plan on getting that number up.
 
Top Bottom