Holding the Right Accountable

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I hardly make topics back here in Serious Discussion but this has been an issue that’s be weighing on my heavily since Election Day and evening before.

Should we hold the Right and, by extension, Republicans, Conservatives, Trumpservatives, Libertarians, etc accountable for decisions that led to Trump’s victory in 2016 and their actions for the last 4 years? If so, to what extent do we hold them accountable? Do the Left pull back punches and try to play the peace makers much like Biden’s acceptance speech? Or perhaps a something more heavy-handed by pushing by on the Republican agenda?

Or, do you think something more drastic and, perhaps, permanent is in order that ranges from public shaming or career termination/cancelling to something that would be a breach of human rights like systematically hunting down republicans or inpriosning them for their beliefs. Would abolishing the Republican Party do more harm than good?

I know those sound pretty drastic, but, talking to my Conservative friends and family (and I have a lot) yielded a lot of fear mongering on what a Biden presidency will bring. Many of them, including my own parents, feel we are living in the end of days and are prepared for unrivaled persecution from the radical left. Do you think these fears are irrational, are they founded in realism, or do you think they have a reason to fear because a reckoning is coming?

While I abhor the thought of hunting down Republicans and jailing then for something as small as a difference in ideals; I do think that their behavior and their actions these past four years can’t be left unpunished. What that punishment is I’m not sure but perhaps just seeing Trump fade away is punishment enough.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Hold them accountable for what, exactly? Exercising their right to vote? Having a particular ideological preference?

I mean

Many of them, including my own parents, feel we are living in the end of days and are prepared for unrivaled persecution from the radical left. Do you think these fears are irrational, are they founded in realism, or do you think they have a reason to fear because a reckoning is coming?

is kind of understandable in the face of

Or, do you think something more drastic and, perhaps, permanent is in order that ranges from public shaming or career termination/cancelling to something that would be a breach of human rights like systematically hunting down republicans or inpriosning them for their beliefs. Would abolishing the Republican Party do more harm than good?

While I abhor the thought of hunting down Republicans and jailing then for something as small as a difference in ideals; I do think that their behavior and their actions these past four years can’t be left unpunished. What that punishment is I’m not sure but perhaps just seeing Trump fade away is punishment enough.

isn't it?

Both "sides" (really factions at this point) have engaged in their own doomsday fearmongering about the other. The Left has spent the past four years building up Trump as this source of unrelenting evil and have said that he would do everything from start nuclear war to hand our country over to foreign powers. He has yet to do any of that or really govern outside the norm of what passes as governance in America. By all accounts his biggest doomsdayers have been the least affected by his presidency.


Or by holding them accountable do you mean marginalizing right-wing ideology as a political force? You would need to provide a good alternative to convince people if that is the case. And that would mean first holding the Democrats accountable for failing to provide an alternative. The Party that has deliberately run off doing absolutely nothing is obviously not going to provide a good opposing force. And this absence of anything tangible from the Left is what allows people like Donald Trump to take advantage of the void the Left leaves.

You cannot counter right-wing populism with "centrism" or whatever you prefer to call the current Dem strategy. The inability to address class concerns and provide a proper Left alternative to populism is going to continue producing Trump types.

So before you worry about punishing people for not doing as you would like; how about engaging in some self-reflection and figure out where you went wrong in connecting with the disenfranchised?

 

[Skyblade12]

Hold them accountable for what, exactly? Exercising their right to vote? Having a particular ideological preference?

I mean

is kind of understandable in the face of


isn't it?

Both "sides" (really factions at this point) have engaged in their own doomsday fearmongering about the other. The Left has spent the past four years building up Trump as this source of unrelenting evil and have said that he would do everything from start nuclear war to hand our country over to foreign powers. He has yet to do any of that or really govern outside the norm of what passes as governance in America. By all accounts his biggest doomsdayers have been the least affected by his presidency.


Or by holding them accountable do you mean marginalizing right-wing ideology as a political force? You would need to provide a good alternative to convince people if that is the case. And that would mean first holding the Democrats accountable for failing to provide an alternative. The Party that has deliberately run off doing absolutely nothing is obviously not going to provide a good opposing force. And this absence of anything tangible from the Left is what allows people like Donald Trump to take advantage of the void the Left leaves.

You cannot counter right-wing populism with "centrism" or whatever you prefer to call the current Dem strategy. The inability to address class concerns and provide a proper Left alternative to populism is going to continue producing Trump types.

So before you worry about punishing people for not doing as you would like; how about engaging in some self-reflection and figure out where you went wrong in connecting with the disenfranchised?

The left has presented the alternative: Socialism, with all its standard trappings. Namely, gulags, execution of political opponents, destruction of civilization, mass economic collapse, etcetera.

As we can see, at the first HINT of power they immediately decide to start "holding the right accountable". Funny how the right never holds the left accountable for burning cities, writing lists, setting up prisons for ideological opponents, "destroying norms", etcetera. It's funny how when a leftist wins, there are no riots or destruction, but any time the left doesn't get everything it wants, it promptly resorts to violence and punishment of ideological opponents.

Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler, Chavez, Maduro, Guvera, etcetera. The name changes, the ideology stays the same. Power, and violence against anyone who threatens that power.

Molon labe, tyrants.

 

[Sucumbio]

We should clarify that holding people responsible for their actions is important and should be handled by the Justice System. Charges may be filed against Trump should he lose his captain America shield but others will tumble with him and never work for Uncle Sam again, Trump included unless they really can't find a better mouthpiece to carry the GOP.

 

[Janx_uwu]

While I abhor the thought of hunting down Republicans and jailing then for something as small as a difference in ideals; I do think that their behavior and their actions these past four years can’t be left unpunished

So...what you're saying is that all Republicans should be jailed? Not like, a certain radical group of them that are actually as bad as the man they support (even that doesn't deserve jail time in America), but all Republicans.







***k politics. Man, opinions like this are the reason I stay out of these kinds of threads.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Venus of the Desert Bloom This is the exact same way Democrats felt about G.W. Bush and Republicans at the end of 2008. You know what happened? The man went out to his ranch on Texas and started a hobby e.g. painting. Based on the rhetoric you are using in your OP which sounds analogous to the historical events of the Greek persecution against the Christians prevents a more rational stance on what the larger issues are and why Trump still garners support in key states that led him to be initially elected and also to run a close race to Biden. There were several key issues that the administration touched upon that America was already set to play out and the fact is that a flawed Trump was the only person who we could have relied on to set the precedent.

For instance, ever since the Bush administration and even with a followup of the Obama administration there have been serial criticisms of China's monetary policy in how the government manipulates currency to result in China being a major manufacturer and exporter. However, it took an administration like the Trump administration to actually take action in how to protect the United States from complete economic dependence on the foreign super power. Following the events of the War on Terrorism, America had been forced to take a more nuanced approach when it comes to international affairs. Russia's cessation of Crimea in 2014 resulted in the implementation of trade sanctions against Russian oligarchs. Coincidentally in 2015, the Bush administration lightened its stance against China's manipulation of currency. Likely a softening position to refrain from strengthening Russo-China affiliations.

A survey by the Central Organization Department (the party's personnel body) reported that 68% of China's private companies already had party bodies in 2016 per an article from The Guardian. A point of contention with the Trump administration has been their stance against Huawei. Polymatter reveals how the Chinese government controls the company through owning shareholder stakes through the Investment and Holding subsidiary with the CEO owning 1.14% and the union owning 98.86% with union leadership being attributed to the grassroots union, local union, provincial union, secretariat, and then the chairman who sits on the National People's Congress. What used to be a concern about currency manipulation and exports is now a concern regarding foreign government policy being implemented through its influence on international business. A Frontline special in October 2020, America's Medical Supply Crisis

... import mask shortage, American manufacturing (American Factory), income & unions, transition to China in the 90's accelerated by the Dalton family & Walmart, disenfranchisement / loss of the American dream connecting to loss of manufacturing, income, and unions, minimum wage retail, throw in a toxic company like CVS in here? idk...

... exploring whether we are really any different from China, repo market, suprime MBS, reference Stoic's comment about Obama/Biden contributing to financial deregulation & contribution to the crisis, Greenspan/Paulson/Geitner/Bernanke, fed approval for volcker rule rollback (2020) & dodd-frank, and the trillions being poured into QE/repo market for liquidity. US bailout of GM, 2014 defective ignition switches were a known problem, US bailout of airlines, US TARP/EESA of 2008, CEOs from bailout banks with record bonus packages, what has really changed?...

... supreme court nominations of Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Barreet, open exploration of whether conservative influence of the Judiciary is more influential than the actions of the Executive branch, Separation of Powers, unitary executive, Addington & Yu (Cheney's War), infringement on civil liberties, PRISM, FISA court, Snowden, systemic failure of multiple administrations to respect Separation of Powers...

... what has the Trump administration done that warrants outrage considering recent events considering the aforementioned...

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

So...what you're saying is that all Republicans should be jailed? Not like, a certain radical group of them that are actually as bad as the man they support (even that doesn't deserve jail time in America), but all Republicans.







***k politics. Man, opinions like this are the reason I stay out of these kinds of threads.

I said I abhorred the thought of jailing Republicana. That being said,I do think certain individuals should be inprisoned including Trump, Pence, several key members of his administration should evidence be found that they acted illegally in the office.

Jailing all Republicans would mean forcing every single member of my family into prison and a good number of my friends so I’m not that cool with it obviously. I made this thread after talk with my family as they fear this is what could come to pass as well as talks with my more radical left friends who felt the country needs to take measures to prevent another Trump-like situation. This also is a response to AOC’s purported list of Trump enablers and a desire by the more far left to expand that list to every Trump supporter (personal information and such).

This was just a concern I had and wanted to gauge the site how they felt. If you think there shouldn’t be any legal actions, if we need to address the past 4 years and to hold those responsible accountable, or to fully hold them all accountable as a collective group and prevent any instance of what happened in 2016 from happening again (extinction of the Republican Party).

 

[Skyblade12]

I said I abhorred the thought of jailing Republicana.

Yet you broached the idea anyway. Most of us think that spreading abhorrent ideas is generally something to avoid.

That being said,I do think certain individuals should be inprisoned including Trump, Pence, several key members of his administration should evidence be found that they acted illegally in the office.

Funny. Most of us think that evidence should be presented in court, and the courts should then offer the punishment described by the law. We also think that this should apply to everyone, not just our political foes. What’s more, we tend to take this as a given, and find that people who single out others to imprison, while providing no evidence of a crime and no indication that one has taken place, to be tyrants engaging in witch hunts. “Show me the man and I’ll find you the crime.” - Lavrentiy Beria

Jailing all Republicans would mean forcing every single member of my family into prison and a good number of my friends so I’m not that cool with it obviously.

Obviously you just regularly bring up ideas that you aren’t cool with or think are horrific and totalitarian.

I made this thread after talk with my family as they fear this is what could come to pass as well as talks with my more radical left friends who felt the country needs to take measures to prevent another Trump-like situation. This also is a response to AOC’s purported list of Trump enablers and a desire by the more far left to expand that list to every Trump supporter (personal information and such).

“In response to my lefty friends talking about jailing Republicans, which I’m obviously not okay with, I created a thread asking if we should jail Republicans, instead of one asking for reflection on why the left is so bat**** insane and authoritarian.”

This was just a concern I had and wanted to gauge the site how they felt.

“I just wanted to see if we had the support to start lynch mobs yet. Since apparently most people aren’t okay with locking up our political foes (yet), I’ll backtrack and let the idea wait for a bit.”

If you think there shouldn’t be any legal actions

Try providing evidence of a crime before suggesting legal action.

if we need to address the past 4 years and to hold those responsible accountable

Hold us accountable for what, exactly? Disagreeing with you? Is that a crime now?

or to fully hold them all accountable as a collective group

This is one of those ideas you are totally not okay with that you keep bringing up, yes? Funny how you keep suggesting mass punishment without even suggesting a crime.

and prevent any instance of what happened in 2016 from happening again (extinction of the Republican Party).

Are you recommending the death of the Republican Party, or suggesting that the party already died? Because you seem to have missed a great deal of info if you arguing the second case.

 

[Janx_uwu]

That being said,I do think certain individuals should be inprisoned including Trump, Pence, several key members of his administration should evidence be found that they acted illegally in the office.

Literally nothing in your original post said anything about this being key members of Trump's inner circle, him and Pence. Everything led me to believe you were just saying "all republicans" because you never specified.
That I can sort of understand? But what do you mean? We would need evidence that Trump, Biden, these "key members" you mentioned, and anyone else you see fit, have committed jailing-worthy crimes. And a fair trial of course.
I don't think crimes should go unpunished. I'm just curious as to what crimes you're talking about, and if you're referring to the Republican Party as a whole or a small number of government officials committing these crimes.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Can we stop feeding into this thread. The second post has made it clear that there is nothing substantive here. To force content out of the OP would probably be analogous to drying yourself off with a wet towel.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Can we stop feeding into this thread. The second post has made it clear that there is nothing substantive here. To force content out of the OP would probably be analogous to drying yourself off with a wet towel.

I agree. How I envisioned my main point didn’t come out how I originally intended it to and I’m pretty sure I gave everyone the wrong impression. My intent was to gauge users opinions (in particular the Left/Liberals/Far Left on wether the Right as a collective whole should be given a free pass or be held accountable for their transgressions the last 5 years. Or, instead of the collective whole, rather thier mouthpieces like Trump, Hannity, Levin, Tucker, Jones, and more individuals and groups in the Far Right etc

Like I said earlier, this was a reaction to discussing with my family, who are all Trump supporters, who believe this is the end of freedom, the Republican Party, and America. They seemed to echo these sentiments

If Biden is elected, there's a good chance you will be dead within the year.

— Scott Adams (@ScottAdamsSays) July 1, 2020

My parents in particular are really hooked on this concept hence why they are stockpiling weapons and ammo currently. They are bracing for the “hordes of anarchist rapists” that apparently the Biden administration will let loose into the suburbs. Based on what I’ve talked to them about, I was curious if the board thinks about the future of the Republican Party, if they should answer for what happened these past 5 years, and what’s an appropriate response. I’m sorry if my original intent didn’t come out clearly in my OP.

Sucumbio , feel free to close this if you want to.

Edit: I realized I never gave my opinion. I’m against any sort of actions unless there’s substantial evidence that shows the Republican Party and/or Trump of illegal wrongdoing. I also have this viewpoint for Democrats and, if there is voter fraud on the Democrats side, then I would expect them to recount the legal votes and see who was the real winner. I would expect the officials who allowed potential fraud to occur to be tried as well as any party official ... even if that means Biden. That being said, I hold no ill-will to Reoublicans who voted for Trump. I’ve seen opinions shared on the site comparing Trump supporters to maggots and vermin...I am 100% against that and those sort of opinions disgust me. If Joe Schmo votes for Trump in 2016 and 2020; that was entirely his own choice and he shouldn’t be punished, canceled, or socially ostracized for it. That’s my viewpoint.

 

[Sucumbio]

How old are your parents, Venus?

And thank you for the clarification. I'd actually suggest editing the OP to be more concise for first time readers but the format is yours to develop obviously.

As for the merit of the topic I believe it encompasses the broader topic of Family Politics.

Ya know, you're 10 and dad just got home after 14 hours making ends meet and all you HEAR for ALL dinner is Taxachusetts this and bleeding heart liberals that and yuppies everywhere!

... I mean people change now my dad's 84 voted Democrat loves all people blah blah blah. He builds Legos to pass the time so he need not contemplate his death too much.

Anyway point is reactionary oaths are just that and until actually tested won't amount to much other than wasted effort. This narrative they've fallen for is frankly sad both that it exists and that someone I know is kin to believers in this. All I can say is give it time, honestly. I am certain their fears will not come true.

Meanwhile, yes as stated previously there will be legal consequences for any number of Trump Administration officials but since Nixon's pardon it's almost a formality to forgive and move on. It's the sex crap that'll get a lot people these days, but I think containing the Pandemic will take precedent over hanging Republicans.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

How old are your parents, Venus?

And thank you for the clarification. I'd actually suggest editing the OP to be more concise for first time readers but the format is yours to develop obviously.

As for the merit of the topic I believe it encompasses the broader topic of Family Politics.

Ya know, you're 10 and dad just got home after 14 hours making ends meet and all you HEAR for ALL dinner is Taxachusetts this and bleeding heart liberals that and yuppies everywhere!

... I mean people change now my dad's 84 voted Democrat loves all people blah blah blah. He builds Legos to pass the time so he need not contemplate his death too much.

Anyway point is reactionary oaths are just that and until actually tested won't amount to much other than wasted effort. This narrative they've fallen for is frankly sad both that it exists and that someone I know is kin to believers in this. All I can say is give it time, honestly. I am certain their fears will not come true.

Meanwhile, yes as stated previously there will be legal consequences for any number of Trump Administration officials but since Nixon's pardon it's almost a formality to forgive and move on. It's the sex crap that'll get a lot people these days, but I think containing the Pandemic will take precedent over hanging Republicans.

My dad is 72 and my mom is 67. My mom is mostly an invalid and had lost the ability to paint due to arthiritis, which was the only thing that gave her joy. My sister left the family due to politics...she’s not as far left as I am but I know she couldn’t stand my parents overwhelming negativity. They spend all day watching Newsmax all day and my mom posts pictures of the Trump family. It saddens me as they are smart people. Both are college educated...my dad holds a Masters and my mom was a famous residential artist who taught at the college and art museum. They are both well-traveled and knowledgeable (my dad self-taught himself Japanese is so can communicate with my wife). However, since 2016, they went into full “koolaid” mode. According to my sister, she has several frames pictures of the Trumo family next to pictures of our family. I know this sounds silly to be offended by this but she even changed the computer desktop from her grandkids (she only has two from my wife and I) to that of...you guessed it...the Trump family.

I don’t want to get too much into a family politics tangent ... especially since I’ve been trying to reconnect and reconcile over the past few years. We are immigrating back in summer and we will be staying at their house for several months so I am going to have to learn to be civil to them. They keep trying to win me over to Q but I keep resisting them.

Regardless of any misgivings I have with my friends and family, I still love them and believe are good people at heart. If worse comes to worse; I will defend them despite disagreeing with them on almost everything.

 

[Sucumbio]

My dad is 72 and my mom is 67. My mom is mostly an invalid and had lost the ability to paint due to arthiritis, which was the only thing that gave her joy. My sister left the family due to politics...she’s not as far left as I am but I know she couldn’t stand my parents overwhelming negativity. They spend all day watching Newsmax all day and my mom posts pictures of the Trump family. It saddens me as they are smart people. Both are college educated...my dad holds a Masters and my mom was a famous residential artist who taught at the college and art museum. They are both well-traveled and knowledgeable (my dad self-taught himself Japanese is so can communicate with my wife). However, since 2016, they went into full “koolaid” mode. According to my sister, she has several frames pictures of the Trumo family next to pictures of our family. I know this sounds silly to be offended by this but she even changed the computer desktop from her grandkids (she only has two from my wife and I) to that of...you guessed it...the Trump family.

I don’t want to get too much into a family politics tangent ... especially since I’ve been trying to reconnect and reconcile over the past few years. We are immigrating back in summer and we will be staying at their house for several months so I am going to have to learn to be civil to them. They keep trying to win me over to Q but I keep resisting them.

Regardless of any misgivings I have with my friends and family, I still love them and believe are good people at heart. If worse comes to worse; I will defend them despite disagreeing with them on almost everything.

Wow. Our journey in life seems to be filled with patterns. Sometimes two people meet who share similar patterns. It's fascinating.

Well, I won't dawdle. Drinking the kool-aid means 1 of two things. 1 Finally being free to express themselves leading to epiphany or visa versa. Or 2 PM me if you'd like to discuss further.

At this point the discussion rests that duh life as usual. Some people honestly believe this a hostile takeover.

... It is. By more of us than you. So nyha.