Hitstun and Grab-Release "Combos"

[FadedImage]

So, I just did a lot of testing on grab-release info and I thought I would share. Then I thought, well I have all that info on hitstun combos that I tested a while back, might as well put them together.

NOTICE: If you aren't interested in reading a whole lot of hullabaloo, then skip down to the "Summary" sections for the down and dirty facts.

Hitstun Combos

These all register as consecutive hits in training mode against a level 1 CPU Mario. What does this list tell you? Basically, every attack listed here cannot be escaped by a double jump. Yes, the opponent can escape by DI. The opponent also might be able to escape with an attack or an airdodge. This means that if your opponent fails to DI, all you have to do to score a hit is predict his airdodge or attack.​

NOTICE: Combos that cannot be airdodged are bolded.

Format:
<First attack> -> (<explanation of performance of attack, if necessary>)

<List of second attacks, ordered by speed, fastest to slowest> (<Percent they work at>)​

GROUND

D-Throw ->

U-Air (0-295)
F-Air (0-175)
B-Air (0-135)
N-Air (0-225)​

Dash Attack ->

Jab (40-60)
Jab (60-95)
U-Tilt (50-60)
U-Tilt (60-90)
D-Tilt (65-85)
F-Tilt (65-110)
Dash Attack (75-105)​

D-Tilt ->

U-Air (0-70)
F-Air (5-80)
N-Air (40-85)​

U-Smash ->

Up-Special (0-80)​

Landing U-Air -> (perform a U-Air just barely above the ground on your descent)

Jab (0-10)
U-Tilt (0-20)
F-Tilt (0-10)
Dash Attack (0-10)
U-Smash (0-15)
U-Smash (15-45)

U-Air (0-15)
U-Air (15-100)
F-Air (0-15)
F-Air (15-85)
B-Air (0-15)
B-Air (15-85)
N-Air (0-15)
N-Air (15-95)
Up-Special (0-15)
Up-Special (15-135)​

Landing F-Air -> (Cancel the 2nd hit by landing)

Jab (0-65)​

Landing B-Air ->

F-Tilt (0-10)
Dash Attack (0-25)​

Landing BF-Air -> (perform a B-Air while facing your opponent)

Jab (0-25)
D-Tilt (0-20)
F-Tilt (0-25)
Dash Attack (0-20)
Dash Attack (20-40)​

Landing N-Air ->

Jab (0-25)
U-Tilt (0-20)
D-Tilt (0-20)
F-Tilt (0-35)
Dash Attack (0-45)

U-Air (10-105)
F-Air (15-90)
N-Air (20-95)​

AIR

Rising U-Air -> (perform U-Air so that you can double jump at the peak of your first)

U-Air (25-100)
F-Air (35-90)
B-Air (40-90)
N-Air (50-95)
Up-Special (50-130)​

B-Air -> (perform the B-Air so that you are moving towards the enemy)

U-Air (30-35)
B-Air (30-45)​

Additional Combos:

F-Tilt Trips ->

If an F-Tilt trips, you have a guaranteed Jab, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Tilt, or Dash Attack depending on location. A normal F-Tilt will trip until ~55%, a downward facing F-Tilt (FD-Tilt) will trip until ~30%.​

Grounded Up-Special ->

The top of an Up-Special will not ground (allow for tech) an opponent until above ~50%. If the opponent cannot tech, you have a guaranteed Jab, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Tilt, Dash Attack, U-Smash or Up-Special depending on location.​

Notes:
For some reason a CPU Level 9 won't attempt to airdodge after a N-Air, so the results of the landing N-Air could possibly be non-airdodgeable, but to be on the safe side I'm going to assume you can.


Hitstun Combo Summary:
(Attacks listed in order of most reliable)

Opponent @

Any percent

D-Throw -> U-Air, F-Air, N-Air, B-Air​

Below 70%

U-Smash -> Up-Special
D-Tilt -> U-Air, F-Air, N-Air​

Below 100%

U-Air on Grounded Opponent -> U-Air, F-Air, N-Air, B-Air, Up-Special​

Above 20%

N-Air on Grounded Opponent -> U-Air, F-Air, N-Air​

Above 50%

Dash Attack -> Jab, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Tilt, Dash Attack
U-Air on Aerial Opponent -> U-Air, F-Air, B-Air, N-Air, Up-Special​

Grab Release Combos

The following is a summation of what happens to every character when they are released from ZSS's grab, and what ZSS can do thereafter. If you aren't looking for a particular character's information, check the bottom reference lists.​

The mechanics of grab breaking is as follows:

If you are currently in the process of pummeling, your opponent will break to the ground.
If your opponent breaks the grab with a jump input and you are not in the process of pummeling, your opponent will break to the air. (Note: Joystick Up counts as jump input even if Tap Jump is set to Off)
If your opponent breaks the grab with non-jump input or no-input, they will break to ground if and only if they are tall enough, otherwise they will break to the air.
​

Format:
<Character> (<No-Input Break Type>):

<Slowest Guaranteed Aerial for Air Break> - <Guaranteed Dash Grab/Attack for Air Break?> - <Guaranteed Jab for Ground Break?>​

Mario (Air):

U-Air - N - Y​

Luigi (Air):

None - N - Y​

Peach (Ground):

None - N - Y​

Bowser (Ground):

None - Y - Y​

Donkey Kong (Ground):

F-Air - N - N​

Diddy Kong (Ground):

None - Y - Y​

Yoshi (Air):

None - N - N​

Wario (Air):

N-Air - Y - Y​

Link (Ground):

None - Y - Y​

Zelda (Ground):

None - N - N​

Sheik (Ground):

None - N - Y​

Ganondorf (Ground):

None - Y - Y​

Toon Link (Air):

F-Air - N - Y​

Samus (Ground):

None - N - Y​

Zero Suit Samus (Ground):

None - Y - Y​

Pit (Ground):

None - N - N​

Ice Climber (Air):

F-Air - N - Y​

R.O.B. (Ground):

None - N - Y​

Kirby (Air):

U-Air - N - Y​

Metaknight (Air):

None - Y - Y​

King Dedede (Ground):

None - N - N​

Olimar (Air):

U-Air - N - Y​

Fox (Ground):

None - N - Y​

Falco (Ground):

None - Y - Y​

Wolf (Ground):

None - N - Y​

Captain Falcon (Ground):

None - Y - Y​

Pikachu (Air):

None - Y - N​

Charizard (Ground):

U-Air - Y - Y​

Squirtle (Air):

None - Y - Y​

Ivysaur (Air):

U-Air - N - Y​

Lucario (Ground):

None - N - Y​

Jigglypuff (Air):

U-Air - N - N​

Marth (Ground):

None - N - Y​

Ike (Ground):

U-Air - Y - N​

Ness (Air):

F-Air - N - Y​

Lucas (Air):

U-Air - Y - Y​

Game and Watch (Air):

F-Air - N - Y​

Snake (Ground):

None - N - Y​

Sonic (Ground):

None - Y - Y​

Special Cases:

The Wario Infinite:

Wario can be infinited by air-releasing him and then re-grabbing him as he comes down. This process can be amplified greatly by performing a D-Smash to stun Wario, and then re-grabbing him. However, a D-Smash is not guaranteed to hit Wario after an air-release. As such, the only true infinite on Wario is pummeling -> air-release -> re-grab.

I highly recommend simply D-Smash -> F-Air if the Wario doesn't know how to escape the D-Smash and just a F-Air if they do. The re-grab on Wario requires extremely strict timing (probably 1-2 frame window). Not only that, but you will be hard pressed to grab a Wario in the first place and even if you do, if it's under a platform, it's all for naught.​

Squirtle: These re-grabs can be done while standing, thus, they are infinite.

Captain Falcon: It's possible for the Captain Falcon to shield a dash attack, but in order to dodge a dashgrab, he must spotdodge precisely as he lands.

Ness / Lucas: When ground released, you can not only Jab, but also U-Tilt (only first hit), D-Tilt, F-Tilt, Dash Attack, and U-Smash.

Reference Lists:

Characters who CANNOT be jabbed after a ground release:

Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Zelda, Pit, King Dedede, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Ike.​

Characters who no-pummel break to the air AND get dash grabbed (Always chaingrab-able):

Metaknight, Pikachu, Squirtle, Lucas.​

Characters who get dash grabbed BUT no-input break to the ground (chaingrab-able IF they resist):

Bowser, Diddy Kong, Link, Ganondorf, Zero Suit Samus, Falco, Charizard, Ike, Sonic.​

Characters who no-pummel break to the air AND can be hit with an aerial (Always guaranteed aerial):

Mario, Wario, Toon Link, Ice Climber, Kirby, Olimar, Ivysaur, Jigglypuff, Ness, Lucas, Game and Watch.​

Characters who can be hit with an aerial BUT no-input break to the ground (guaranteed aerial IF they resist):

Donkey Kong, Charizard, Ike.​

That's all I've got for now. If you find any mistakes in my "Combos" lemme know, I'll test it out and see if I can fix it.

Also, I'm a total feedback junkie, so if you find these useful, SAY SO! If you have questions, ASK THEM!

 

[ragnar0ck]

Very usefull especially the grab release data, could there be a chance though that the opponent could DI or is there no way to DI a grab release (maybe you could try it on a friend who's really doing his best to escape)

good job!

 

[FadedImage]

could there be a chance though that the opponent could DI or is there no way to DI a grab release (maybe you could try it on a friend who's really doing his best to escape)

You can only input minor DI on a grab release, whether it's on the ground or in the air. Yeah, I had a friend do it with me, so it should be pretty accurate stuff.

and thanks! (:

 

[White Assassin]

hah finaly a usefull thread in our boards.
thx man

 

[Adapt]

I did some combo testing myself. All of these count as consecutive hits and can't be airdodged, but I have no info on DI. All percents are on Mario, so they are a median value, they will be slightly lower for lighter characters and slightly higher for heavies.

Dash Attack
Jab: 39-64
Utilt: 49-63

Grounded Up-B
Jab: 0-400+
Utilt: 0-400+
Dtilt: 25-400+
Dsmash: 114-400+

Note: Up-B can be teched at 41% and above, so these aren't guaranteed above 41%

Grab Release
Usmash (air)
Dash Attack (air)
Grab (air but not always guaranteed)
Jab (ground)
Utilt (ground but not guaranteed)

Strong FF Landed Uair
Usmash: 0-??
Utilt: 0-??
Up-B: 0-??
Uair

Weak FF Landed Uair
Utilt: 0-58 (0-35 reliably)
Uair
Usmash

Ftilt (trip)
Jab, ftilt, utilt, dtilt, dash, D-smash, fsmash

FF Landed Fair (first hit)
Jab: 0-27

FF landed Nair
Jab: 0-5


I have a couple different percentages than you, and I never finished my research (especially to the extent you did) but we agree on a lot of the inescapable combos.

I seemed to be able to hit a d-smash off a ftilt trip, which is great. But you don't have that... Maybe it is too slow, but I have to ask if you tested that thoroughly? I was testing this alone, so maybe having to work 2 controllers made my reachions for Mario slower...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Is Grounded UpB -> Usmash a true combo?

 

[FadedImage]

I have a couple different percentages than you, and I never finished my research (especially to the extent you did) but we agree on a lot of the inescapable combos.

I seemed to be able to hit a d-smash off a ftilt trip, which is great. But you don't have that... Maybe it is too slow, but I have to ask if you tested that thoroughly? I was testing this alone, so maybe having to work 2 controllers made my reachions for Mario slower...

Good to see supporting evidence. Also, as for percentages, I only tested to the nearest multiple of 5, since it's going to be an estimate anyways as far as weight goes. Also, the grounded Up-Special you have is for hitting with the first 3 hits AND the top spike, right? I was just saying for the top spike, so that one is still the same.

As for the F-Tilt trip to D-Smash, I had my friend try to roll out of the trip as fast as possible, and he just barely escaped. I've also had people escape it during a tournament match, much to my dismay. ):
It's possible I just didn't react fast enough, but I'm fairly sure it's escapable, 20 frames is just too long.

Is Grounded UpB -> Usmash a true combo?

Short Answer: Yes.

Long Answer:

The top of an Up-Special will not ground (allow for tech) an opponent until above ~50%. If the opponent cannot tech, you have a guaranteed Jab, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Tilt, Dash Attack, U-Smash or Up-Special depending on location.

 

[smaci92]

fadedimage your list is too good!!! so many options I can work with...

 

[FadedImage]

fadedimage your list is too good!!! so many options I can work with...

I partially made this thread because of you! In the Q&A thread I answered your question talking about grab release stuff, and realized that there wasn't a post on it yet, so I made one! lol.

 

[smaci92]

I partially made this thread because of you! In the Q&A thread I answered your question talking about grab release stuff, and realized that there wasn't a post on it yet, so I made one! lol.

thanks a lot!!! the list is so large it overwhelms me though!! but I guess the larger, the better---cause that means more unpredictable options

 

[Snakeee]

Wow, good stuff Faded Image. So much to remember X_X
Btw, yeah f-tilt trip - d-smash does not work. I think f-tilt trip - d-tilt will though. I suggest trying it out.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Neat info but its a little confusing.

 

[FadedImage]

Wow, good stuff Faded Image. So much to remember X_X
Btw, yeah f-tilt trip - d-smash does not work. I think f-tilt trip - d-tilt will though. I suggest trying it out.

Haha, yeah, all you really need to remember for the grab release stuff is the lists I put at the bottom, but even that is a lot, lol. As for the combos... maybe I'll make a quick reference list for that too...
Oh, and f-tilt -> d-tilt definitely works, and thanks for adding another opinion on the d-smash thing.

Neat info but its a little confusing.

What are you confused about? I'll try to simplify it any way possible.

ty for the feedback!

EDIT: Added a "Useful Combo" list so that people don't have to read through a bunch of nonsense. Also added a warning at the top. d:

 

[DeliciousCake]

Color code everything. It's always the best way to go.

 

[FBM]

Great work!

I've heard whispers of the infinite on Wario before, but never got the full story: is it a true infinite? and by that I mean, is there any way he could ground break if you are not pummeling - just mashing A? - or avoid getting regrabbed if you time it perfectly?

 

[FadedImage]

Color code everything. It's always the best way to go.

Oh! Good idea! I'll get on that.

I've heard whispers of the infinite on Wario before, but never got the full story: is it a true infinite? and by that I mean, is there any way he could ground break if you are not pummeling - just mashing A? - or avoid getting regrabbed if you time it perfectly?

It's a true (very difficult) infinite. There is no possible way for him to ground break if you are not pummeling. He's too short (his legs don't touch the ground). He can not jump out of a re-grab if you time it PERFECTLY. And by perfectly I'm talking a single frame of error could allow him to get out. Then again, they have to jump perfectly as well.

 

[FBM]

It's a true (very difficult) infinite. There is no possible way for him to ground break if you are not pummeling. He's too short (his legs don't touch the ground). He can not jump out of a re-grab if you time it PERFECTLY. And by perfectly I'm talking a single frame of error could allow him to get out. Then again, they have to jump perfectly as well.

Joy of joys! I'm going to measure my timing by watching where Wario's feet are relative to Samus' body for the earliest possible grab.

I can't wait to try this on the Wario main at the weekly smashnight tomorrow!

Lvl 9 CPUs are fantastic practice for this too: they break the grab so fast, you can only get 1 pummel in from 40ish-70ish % and 2 pummels after that until over 100% - but more breaks = more practice on the hardest part.

Great stuff again; I'll have to cram that all into my brain sooner than later.

EDIT - as far as formatting goes, maybe organize characters in the grab release section by their break type for starters.

 

[Snakeee]

CPU's are no where near as good at breaking out as certain players such as my brother. He makes grab release chain grabbing seem pointless because as soon as I do one jab he breaks out to the ground until like 80% with Meta >_>.

and the grab release infinite is usually banned, but you can still follow up with something else. If it isn't banned you can also d-smash him every two grabs.

 

[FBM]

CPU's are no where near as good at breaking out as certain players such as my brother. He makes grab release chain grabbing seem pointless because as soon as I do one jab he breaks out to the ground until like 80% with Meta >_>.

and the grab release infinite is usually banned, but you can still follow up with something else. If it isn't banned you can also d-smash him every two grabs.

Yikes, that is an early break.

How do you work the dsmash in?

Also, if infinite release grabs are banned, are DDD's infinites banned as well?

 

[FadedImage]

How do you work the dsmash in?

Also, if infinite release grabs are banned, are DDD's infinites banned as well?

just throw out a D-Smash as he releases and it should connect right when he's in range. You can then dash forward, pivot grab him out of the D-Smash and continue the infinite. It's actually a lot easier to D-Smash him and then re-grab and reset the D-Smash this way. Make sure you use the pivot grab, because if you don't grab from far enough away, he won't touch the ground and thus, won't get stunned the next time you d-smash. (This is what Snakeee was referring to when he said "every 2 grabs")

If grab releasing is banned, DDD's should be banned as well. As well as ICs and other such grab infinites. Wall infinites probably would still be allowed... maybe...

EDIT: Added a section explaining the process of Wario Infinite-ing. Snakeee you might want to take a look, I found out how to reset his stun cooldown every grab. d:

 

[FBM]

If grab releasing is banned, DDD's should be banned as well. As well as ICs and other such grab infinites. Wall infinites probably would still be allowed... maybe...

EDIT: Added a section explaining the process of Wario Infinite-ing. Snakeee you might want to take a look, I found out how to reset his stun cooldown every grab. d:

Wowowowow!! The dsmash/pivot grab makes the timing sooo easy! You wouldn't even have to jab if it was low % b/c of the dsmash dmg. The only time I where you wouldn't want to use it is when moving with the pivot might bring you close enough to a platform that Wario would land on it before fell back into grab/smash range.

Amazing - makes FD a great Wario counterpick with its lack of interfering platforms and considering both a grab and dsmash can be the starters for this, it's definitely not impossible to land.

EDIT - NVM! The pivot can be done tightly enough that Wario can be kept in one spot, so you don't have to worry about moving him closer to platforms like on BF.

BTW - Should this affect the matchup representation of ZSS vs Wario? I mean with Fox, it's dsmash -> stock; this is dsmash OR grab -> stock.

 

[Snakeee]

I haven't tested that out yet Faded Image, but I'll assume it works. That's great in more ways than one, because it might not be considered an "infinite" this way since it's not just a standing CG. Good stuff.

 

[FadedImage]

The pivot can be done tightly enough that Wario can be kept in one spot, so you don't have to worry about moving him closer to platforms like on BF.

BTW - Should this affect the matchup representation of ZSS vs Wario? I mean with Fox, it's dsmash -> stock; this is dsmash OR grab -> stock.

Yeah, I was easily able to do it ON a platform at Battlefield, it's pretty much standing.

As far as the match-up goes, it's still really difficult to do if they just spam jump non-stop. However, I haven't run into a Wario in tournament since I knew about the infinite, so we'll see when I do.

 

[FBM]

Yeah, I was easily able to do it ON a platform at Battlefield, it's pretty much standing.

As far as the match-up goes, it's still really difficult to do if they just spam jump non-stop. However, I haven't run into a Wario in tournament since I knew about the infinite, so we'll see when I do.

Ya, Wario isn't the easiest to grab - however, forcing him to worry about it has advantages even if you don't actually try for/use it. I'll be trying it tomorrow night against a Wario player who does quite well in regionals around here (he's adapted well to my ZSS so far, so I'm interested to see how he handles it).

 

[FadedImage]

I'll be trying it tomorrow night against a Wario player who does quite well in regionals around here (he's adapted well to my ZSS so far, so I'm interested to see how he handles it).

Excellent! Get back to me when you've played, lemme know how it goes. Out here in South Cali we have some of the best Warios alive, and they crawl out the woodwork. It would be great if the infinite worked really well, even in a pressure situation.

 

[Charby]

I tried the Wario stuff on a friend, i never succeed it lol

 

[FBM]

Excellent! Get back to me when you've played, lemme know how it goes. Out here in South Cali we have some of the best Warios alive, and they crawl out the woodwork. It would be great if the infinite worked really well, even in a pressure situation.

I had a little difficulty timing the dsmash at first, but after awhile I had it down pretty well. You can't try too hard to start the combo b/c it's easy enough to see coming, so you kinda have to fight the match until you get the opportunity to grab (pivot grabbing worked well for me) or land a dsmash/paralyzer. The limitation of needing no platforms above you does prevent it from really breaking the matchup though imo. Still, you can't deny it helps!

 

[rofljont]

faded... i really dont think there is a real wario infinite.

Ive been testing this and wario seems to be able to DI back and escape with a double jump every time

 

[ph00tbag]

Apparently the Wario infinite requires near-frame-perfect precision. I've never relied on it myself because I don't think it's useful enough to warrant learning it. I might learn it for other characters with whom it is easier, but with Wario, I just don't see the point.

 

[FadedImage]

faded... i really dont think there is a real wario infinite.

Ive been testing this and wario seems to be able to DI back and escape with a double jump every time

Not to sound like an *******, but you're doing it wrong. Like ph00t said, it really does require near-perfect frame precision. Last time I checked, you can't even DI grab-releases.

Apparently the Wario infinite requires near-frame-perfect precision. I've never relied on it myself because I don't think it's useful enough to warrant learning it. I might learn it for other characters with whom it is easier, but with Wario, I just don't see the point.

In Southern California there are 3 Warios on our Power Rankings list (out of 15), and there are bounds of Warios running around. It's pretty worth it out here. However, I know on east coast the Wario population is severely lacking, so I agree that it's probably not that useful to you guys.

 

[ph00tbag]

In Southern California there are 3 Warios on our Power Rankings list (out of 15), and there are bounds of Warios running around. It's pretty worth it out here. However, I know on east coast the Wario population is severely lacking, so I agree that it's probably not that useful to you guys.

Heh. You've never met LoZR. Even having seen him play, I still don't feel like it would be useful. Maybe if I actually go up against him in a tourney, I'll change my mind. I don't expect I'll end up with a different opinion, though.

 

[rofljont]

you'll have to show me some time... are you going to races on sat???

 

[rofljont]

also i didnt mean DI the grab release i meant instead of just jamming jump holding back and jamming jump

 

[PKNintendo]

I have an edit for you.

Ness / Lucas: When ground released, you can not only Jab, but also U-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Tilt, Dash Attack, and U-Smash.

Lucas can shield the U-tilt, down tilt filt , Upsmash and dash attack. (Tested)

 

[FadedImage]

Heh. You've never met LoZR. Even having seen him play, I still don't feel like it would be useful. Maybe if I actually go up against him in a tourney, I'll change my mind. I don't expect I'll end up with a different opinion, though.

Yeah, I do have to agree, it's very very situational. Platforms ruin it, Wario is hard to grab, and the timing is insanely hard. So in general, you're probably right, not worth it. But hey, I'm a numbers freak, if it's possible, I'll post it. d:

you'll have to show me some time... are you going to races on sat???

Yeah I am, I'll hunt you down and show you. d:

Lucas can shield the U-tilt, down tilt filt , Upsmash and dash attack. (Tested)

Were you doing something other than holding shield? In training mode I set the CPU to control, hold shield, and he can't escape any of those.

 

[DMG]

The grab release infinite on Wario is not worth it IMO, I can usually break after one jab if I'm below 70% or so, and I can sometime break to the ground even when you are not jabbing.

 

[FadedImage]

The grab release infinite on Wario is not worth it IMO, I can usually break after one jab if I'm below 70% or so, and I can sometime break to the ground even when you are not jabbing.

Don't need a jab, we get 6-11% damage every grab without pummels (D-Smash).

How is it you break to the ground when we aren't pummeling?

You're probably right about it not being worth it, however, not for the reasons you listed.

 

[The Great Leon]

good **** jimmy

but you forgot sheik on the cant jab out of grab

<3 my sheiky

come back to my house for the next oxnard toureny and lets play sum dotaz

 

[DeliciousCake]

come back to my house for the next oxnard toureny and lets play sum dotaz

I will crush you.

 

[Gaussis]

Were you doing something other than holding shield? In training mode I set the CPU to control, hold shield, and he can't escape any of those.

Did you DI the release? I'm not sure how exactly do all of those hit both Ness and Lucas. Do you utilt and usmash without moving or something?