Hierarchies of Power: The Ganon Community Tier List! (Updated October 8th 2017)

[-VictoriaJustice-]

Mind if I cut in?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mind if I cut in?

Adding you, Swoops, and JmacAttack on my Wii-U. I'm fine with anyone joining if they're available, and we can take turns demonstrating true power.

 

[Swoops]

Works for me. I just know that I'll have my stuff set up within about 10 minutes and I'll be hosting. He can join in too while we're at it.

I might be on later tonight, but I'm at work for about another hour or so

 

[Opana]

It's giving me an error trying to connect online...

 

[MezzoMe]

Just a little problem that comes off the top of my head about this sparring:
In this moment it's 11:29pm in Italy.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Opana I do still think you're slightly better than me, as confirmed by playing our games. Though our playstyles are extremely different, I do think your overall mechanics are superior.

I don't like running WDK too much in the ditto given how much it changes the matchup. I think however learning to time the armor frames on Ganon's Dark Fists is something we'll have to get used to. Ganon still has brutal edgeguards on himself in custom environment, but one thing I realize is that Dark Fists has ever so slightly different timing before it propels you upwards compared to default Up-B. Definitely takes more thought than I expected to armor through edgeguards with it.

@ -VictoriaJustice- those shieldbreaks from offense equipment were kinda hilarious (I don't normally run equipment outside of 1p modes). I do think there were several times you could have edgeguarded but you were afraid to. We'll have to play more again though.

 

[-VictoriaJustice-]

Am I worthy of a promotion or am I fine were I am?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Am I worthy of a promotion or am I fine were I am?

It's slightly hard for me to give a fair judgement based on about 4 or so games involving equipment (shield break from one F-smash lol). At the moment though I would say top of C seems accurate, but I would definitely like to do some more default settings matches so I can more conventionally assess you. I can however confidently say one area you can definitely improve in is edgeguarding. You seem to have your basics down fairly solidly, but still have things to learn.

 

[Vermanubis]

Speaking of placement, what're the change conditions? Once the poll ends?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Played a total of 32 friendlies with Pon.

I won 21, he won 11.

His Ganon is extremely well rehearsed in many places, but lacks a lot in others.

I would say he's a bit better than me overall, mainly because of his match-up experience and how he deals with those other characters.

That's for now though. I want to see how well I can do in my upcoming tournaments.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Speaking of placement, what're the change conditions? Once the poll ends?

I actually didn't put a specific time to end the poll. Placement changes are determined by basically any information that I get.

I know that's not exactly a very solid answer, and a lot of this project depends on good faith, hopefully without heavy politics. Opinions are always going to be weighted by individual. For instance, the people I involved in the private conversation before posting this topic publicly have opinions that I value a lot within the Ganon community, and I would trust their judgement on things player skill related. Arguably, it could be considered a "council" for this thread more or less.

Hopefully though, what you get out of my answer is that I take this seriously and will try my best to make people happy.

Played a total of 32 friendlies with Pon.

I won 21, he won 11.

His Ganon is extremely well rehearsed in many places, but lacks a lot in others.

I would say he's a bit better than me overall, mainly because of his match-up experience and how he deals with those other characters.

That's for now though. I want to see how well I can do in my upcoming tournaments.

Yeah. Even I was able to legitimately beat Pon in friendlies. I feel like he actually doesn't handle his negative state that well sometimes, and I was able to beat him once with good edgeguards. However what makes him such a dangerous player is his amazing knowledge of the positive state. No other Ganon has 0-deathed me so many times in a row.

In contrast when I played Gungnir...I was just outright afraid to edgeguard him for all the times he just simply killed me for doing it. And the way Gungnir uses footstools and midair jumps to space is highly intimidating, and he covers ledge options extremely well. I don't think I've won any games against him except for maybe one where he SDed, and most of the time I feel like I can't touch him.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

In contrast when I played Gungnir...I was just outright afraid to edgeguard him for all the times he just simply killed me for doing it. And the way Gungnir uses footstools and midair jumps to space is highly intimidating, and he covers ledge options extremely well.

Yeah, I'm beginning to think that Gungnir is the better Ganon in general. He is much more precise in his decisions.

But each of the better Ganons have their own ups and downs. Some are very good against certain match-ups, others are better at other things.

Right now, as the current tier list shows, I believe that it's Gungnir, Pon and myself who are most experienced and know how to use Ganon to his current potential.

 

[Opana]

Yeah real GGs @ A2ZOMG , part of me is starting to prefer Dark Dive because of the speed it come out, I can chase in the air better, and I've gotten so used to maximizing his recovery that I often just fall short of recovery with Fists.

After you came back from brb I was having a bit of a hard time focusing as my sister came in to chat with me, I don't think I'd have WDKed into that fludd so often >_>. You pulled off some awesome combos this time around, I'm kinda sad that I've slowly moved away from my hyper aggressive play. I have a hard time striking balance and I think that's one of my biggest weaknesses.

@ Ray_Kalm , will you be free at all this coming week? Also, kinda funny, for awhile I thought your name was Ray_Khan lol.

EDIT: Just played a whole bunch with Potetchi, he's definitely better. He's really good at teching stage spikes and countering out of them, as well as ganonciding and comboing. He got me a lot with air dodg to nair,bI need to use that more. I won some but he won lots more, it was really enjoyable though.

 

[Z1GMA]

@Tonsana should be included in the tier list. Dittos between him and me are really even.
Definitely somewhere in the B Tier.

Analytic Assassin (analyzes the playstyle of new opponents really quick) : @Tonsana
Data Provider (Gets us all the data we need) : @Big O
Throne Holder (Highest ranked Ganon) : @Gungnir
Award Thief (Most Awards) : ?

Yeah, I'm beginning to think that Gungnir is the better Ganon in general. He is much more precise in his decisions.

I agree. Sometimes when your timing is off, even by only 1 or so frame(s), it can be enough to mess things up for you, but Gungnir seem to execute stuff with splendid timing pretty much everytime.

But each of the better Ganons have their own ups and downs. Some are very good against certain match-ups, others are better at other things.

Hence the reason why some awards are snagged by lower ranked Ganons.
This is what makes smash so fun in general.

 

[Vermanubis]

I actually didn't put a specific time to end the poll. Placement changes are determined by basically any information that I get.

I know that's not exactly a very solid answer, and a lot of this project depends on good faith, hopefully without heavy politics. Opinions are always going to be weighted by individual. For instance, the people I involved in the private conversation before posting this topic publicly have opinions that I value a lot within the Ganon community, and I would trust their judgement on things player skill related. Arguably, it could be considered a "council" for this thread more or less.

Hopefully though, what you get out of my answer is that I take this seriously and will try my best to make people happy.

Fair enough. Though, are these 6 the only ones who have say? Right now, both tournament results and the poll suggests one of two things: 1. Gungnir belongs in S tier by himself, with Pon, Kalm and myself in A, or 2. Gungnir, Pon, Kalm and myself all belong in the same tier.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fair enough. Though, are these 6 the only ones who have say? Right now, both tournament results and the poll suggests one of two things: 1. Gungnir belongs in S tier by himself, with Pon, Kalm and myself in A, or 2. Gungnir, Pon, Kalm and myself all belong in the same tier.

Obviously, they aren't the only opinions I'm listening to. Everyone else who wanted to participate in this thread I've listened to in some shape or form, even if up to now there's relatively little activity, and I've been slow about adding people to the rankings/awards (largely because I admit my own observation is limited).

As for debating placements within S/A tiers, sounds very likely reasonable. Honestly I was arguing not long ago Gungnir probably was in his own tier. I don't think there's much doubt that overall, he's the best Ganon that we know of.

The main observation I have that contradicts this is I believe currently, his matchup knowledge is not as strong as that of some other Ganon players, and I can see how players like you, Pon, and Ray_Kalm have knowledge in different things that are also valuable. Both Gungnir's mechanics and creativity are top notch though.

I guess now the question is what kind of distinction am I trying to make between the S/A tiers? If it wasn't clear, these two tiers overall currently represent who we believe are the top Ganons overall. Do I make S tier the pedestal for our one and only flesh and blood King of Evil? And where do I try harder to see a wider breadth of skills being applicable to be collectively considered amazing?

Or I guess the other option is I make a separate pinnacle point for Gungnir (or whoever ambitiously may dethrone him eventually), move you to the existing S tier, and call it a day.

 

[Vermanubis]

Sounds reasonable to me. I think the King of Evil tier's a good idea, since I think that extra layer would create the distinction you're looking for.

 

[Gunblade789]

I usually play on Nairo's stream with him. I will try to be more active as a player along with commentary and punch kids with my boy Ganon!!!

 

[A2ZOMG]

I usually play on Nairo's stream with him. I will try to be more active as a player along with commentary and punch kids with my boy Ganon!!!

I was wondering for the longest time where you could be reached. I haven't seen your Ganon since the 3DS era.

 

[Opana]

@ Swoops I'd really like to play you, wondering when you'd be free.

 

[adom4]

@ Z1GMA Any chance you want to play sometimes?

 

[Swoops]

@ Swoops I'd really like to play you, wondering when you'd be free.

Probably won't be available for the next couple days due to local gatherings going on.

...Arizona Salt Mine, Twitch channel: MVG_League. (Can't resist a plug :D)

But after that I should be available Wednesday. Around 4:45 mountain time

 

[Opana]

That should work for me, will let you know if otherwise.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I asked Pon and Potechi about tournament results. Potechi has not been able to attend anything offline, but like Gungnir, Pon has participated in a 3DS tournament. He placed in the top 32 in a 120 man event.

Just thought I would bring that up.

 

[Opana]

GGs earlier @ adom4 , you were beating me bad early on but I actually started using choke more seeing how effective you were using it and gradually got better throughout, then I worked in my usual and started winning a lot. If I didn't adapt I'd probably have won a few games at most; playing you both times has really been beneficial, somehow more than other Ganondorf mains.

 

[adom4]

GGs earlier @ adom4 , you were beating me bad early on but I actually started using choke more seeing how effective you were using it and gradually got better throughout, then I worked in my usual and started winning a lot. If I didn't adapt I'd probably have won a few games at most; playing you both times has really been beneficial, somehow more than other Ganondorf mains.

GGs, i actually felt like i was doing worse as we went on, i really have a lot of trouble spacing properly (mostly with Bair & F-tilt).

 

[Vermanubis]

I asked Pon and Potechi about tournament results. Potechi has not been able to attend anything offline, but like Gungnir, Pon has participated in a 3DS tournament. He placed in the top 32 in a 120 man event.

Just thought I would bring that up.

I really want Pon and Gungnir to attend another tournament. While both are fine results, the metagame was pretty young along with control scheme differences, so I wanna see how things are holding up.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Thanks for the games man.
Do you have any tips on some things i can improve?
I feel like a kinda hit a ceiling & my game suffers from it lately.

@ adom4

You probably have the best spacing out of any Ganon I have played (@ A2ZOMG that's worth a mention).

What you could improve on? Work a little bit more on your passive play. You have aggressive and defensive down to a good degree, just try to mix the two up together more often then not. Along with that, you just have to become more precise with what you do.

You're good with predicting and reading, but try to anticipate at many more points (this is what caused me to punish a lot of your moves).

 

[adom4]

@ adom4

You probably have the best spacing out of any Ganon I have played (@ A2ZOMG that's worth a mention).

What you could improve on? Work a little bit more on your passive play. You have aggressive and defensive down to a good degree, just try to mix the two up together more often then not. Along with that, you just have to become more precise with what you do.

You're good with predicting and reading, but try to anticipate at many more points (this is what caused me to punish a lot of your moves).

I actually feel like my spacing is my weakest point, i don't really use things like F-tilt well enough.
I also feel like i'm not technical enough, it's like i know what i want to do but i can never execute it correctly or precisely.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I actually feel like my spacing is my weakest point, i don't really use things like F-tilt well enough.
I also feel like i'm not technical enough, it's like i know what i want to do but i can never execute it correctly or precisely.

You should try to use rolls more accurately. You're usually just standing in one single place baiting for moves. Rolls are generally movement technique this game, don't let the opponent know when you are going to roll and don't stand in one place all the time.

Your spacing in terms of making the opponent guess what to do is very good though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ adom4

You probably have the best spacing out of any Ganon I have played (@ A2ZOMG that's worth a mention).

What you could improve on? Work a little bit more on your passive play. You have aggressive and defensive down to a good degree, just try to mix the two up together more often then not. Along with that, you just have to become more precise with what you do.

You're good with predicting and reading, but try to anticipate at many more points (this is what caused me to punish a lot of your moves).

I'm more inclined to say Gungnir actually has the best spacing. There's no other Ganon who is nearly as accurate at getting grabs, which is made possible when you space as dynamically as Gungnir.

My games with adom4 are laggier than with any other Ganon I've played, and while I acknowledge he definitely plays solidly defensively (he's really good at calling offensive reads and not over-committing), it's hard for me to judge the finer specifics.

To bring up something else interesting, I believe playstyles, especially among Ganon mains, come in three flavors. Aggressive, Defensive, and Bait. All of them are essential to varying degrees in different matchups, but it's always very fascinating how the different Ganon mains express certain habits.

To give ideas of who I feel represents these kinds of playstyles, I consider myself and Z1GMA highly defensive, given I feel we tend to prefer waiting for our opponent to move first and adjust our punish options from there. You and Opana seem aggressively inclined and seem to excel at throwing out attacks intimidatingly. Then there's Gungnir and Vermanubis who I feel go back and forth between anticipating shields with tricky movement and grabs, and falling back with aerial attacks when their opponent thinks they leave themselves open.

 

[Opana]

@ Swoops any other time today?

 

[Opana]

GGs @ adom4 , I can't compete with you for a bit because I need to adjust to my new controller. I keep grabbing instead of shielding, Dark Diving the wrong ways, using wrong aerials, and fast falling at the wrong times. The stick feels way different, idk why.

 

[adom4]

GGs @ adom4 , I can't compete with you for a bit because I need to adjust to my new controller. I keep grabbing instead of shielding, Dark Diving the wrong ways, using wrong aerials, and fast falling at the wrong times. The stick feels way different, idk why.

GGs man, what controller are you using?

 

[Opana]

I'm using the original white wii classic but havev to switch to a wii classic pro. The pro feels like the shoulder buttons are too big, kinda like the gpad, and it feels like it registers directions in different areas.

 

[-VictoriaJustice-]

hay ganons!

 

[Opana]

hay ganons!

Ahoy

@ Swoops I'm actually free, ready when you are.

Edit: Seems I was wrong about the time difference, idk if I'll be free around then.

 

[Swoops]

Ahoy

@ Swoops I'm actually free, ready when you are.

Edit: Seems I was wrong about the time difference, idk if I'll be free around then.

Just as well, I had something come up that I have to attend >.<

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hey everyone, if you want to see me on stream with Japanese Ganon Papaya, he will be streaming 7 hours from now (9pm Japan Time) here. http://com.nicovideo.jp/community/co2687009

I think he's possibly pretty close in skill level to me. @ Ray_Kalm was also invited, but I do not know if he will make it yet. At any rate, I have been quite interested in playing him more to assess his playstyle. Our games should be pretty fun to watch.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Papaya is awesome, I'd say nearly equal in skill to me, but he does some things differently than I do. He leans more towards an aggressive playstyle, and he's pretty smart about his followups and edgeguards. I get the impression he's learned pretty well from someone like Pon. I have a lot of replays saved against him. We went fairly back and forth.

I think I have better mindgames and overall manage my recovery more carefully than he does. In a sense, I feel like I pick up on patterns better and especially in the ditto, I'm more familiar with techchase options and hard read situations, so often I feel like I have the edge in baiting (I've caught him off guard a lot with F-smash). However he's definitely pretty clever, and given time and experience I think he'll become a dangerous player.

As I recall, he's 16, younger than Pon who is 18. He's definitely someone to watch out for.