Hi I'm new and need some help getting started

[StoryTime]

I am definitely very guilty of using dodge roll way too much. It also leads to me getting punished because I end up rolling into someone's attack.
What's a good way to break the habit and what should I replace dodge rolling with?

Based on what I've been told, basically good spacing by Dash Dancing and Wave Dashing/Wave Dashing Out of Shield, right? Gotta make sure I'm getting this right too ^.^

 

[Double Helix]

Yeah. StoryTime got it. But another approach is to play as if you can't roll at all. If rolling weren't an option at all, figure out what you are comfortable doing. It is usually a better option than rolling. Once you break the habit and replace it with better options (don't try to replace it with one answer), it may for another bad habit (for me, it was shielding too much) which will require being broken. On the bright side, it will make your rolls much smarter and will open up more options that you are comfortable with. If every option becomes a bad habit that we break, then we play as if we no longer have that option, it is very possible to find the best option for most situation thrown at us. That said, that process takes way too long, so just do what you are comfortable with, and if it becomes a bad habit, do uncomfortable better things until that becomes comfortable lol.

That was probably a bit long-winded, but the point is: try to use every option optimally (which will differ from character to character)

 

[Comatose]

Best thing I find to break bad habits is to sacrifice the stock every time you do whatever you're trying to for example, I have 8 younger siblings who don't play competitively in the slightest, so they foster my bad habits. Recently I realized I was using dash attack way too much, so every time I dash attacked instead of shffled a nair or some other means of approach I suicided. It sucks to even come close to losing to my 4yr old brother, when I'm not trying to that is, so it motivates me to break those habits.

 

[milligraham]

I'll try to use those moves in place of rolling. I feel like my dashdancing has gotten better recently, but I'm pretty terrible at wavedashing. I'll try to practice and get better at that too.

 

[StoryTime]

Ok so I've been practicing DDing against a lvl 7 Marth and I feel like my DD game has improved somewhat but that's against a cpu but at least I have some understanding of what my DD game should be like. I still need to practice more WDing but while DD practicing, I noticed that I'm having trouble integrating my SHFFLing into my DD game. When I practice my SHFFLing what I do is I just go against a lvl 3 cpu and run around, but not DD, and SHFFL and since the cpu is only lvl 3 it doesn't really do much. Really all I can do to get some hits in or combos started when practicing is to grab and I'm trying to implement some JC grabs and I'm getting used to doing it a tad bit.

 

[The 2t]

Just keep in mind that a lot of the reason for actually dashdancing in matches is to remain unpredictable and throw off human opponents. It's fine to practise against a level 7 Marth but you're probably not going to actually see tangible results or figure out why it's useful when using it against computers. When you play actual humans you'll get a better feel for it. Computers can't really be mindgames'd, they'll just interrupt you with random jabs and things when they know it's going to hit you.

 

[Double Helix]

Yeah. It would be good to integrate some SHFFLs into that DD game, but try SHFFLing against a lvl 7. It is a bit more annoying since they can jab to hit you because frames x.x but I feel like it will help with spacing issues. Now that you feel a bit more confident in your DDing game, you could try to practice pivots maybe. It would be a useful thing to do out of a DD, and though I don't exactly know Falcon's options, I do know that he has a pivot game of sorts.

 

[DRM4R10]

I'm a n0b as well so I've got a question, how can you get good at short hopping? I can barely do it properly when I want to and ,obviously, I full hop instead.

 

[Double Helix]

I'm a n0b as well so I've got a question, how can you get good at short hopping? I can barely do it properly when I want to and ,obviously, I full hop instead.

I posted something on that earlier in the thread. I think it is on page one or two.

Best thing I find to break bad habits is to sacrifice the stock every time you do whatever you're trying to for example, I have 8 younger siblings who don't play competitively in the slightest, so they foster my bad habits. Recently I realized I was using dash attack way too much, so every time I dash attacked instead of shffled a nair or some other means of approach I suicided. It sucks to even come close to losing to my 4yr old brother, when I'm not trying to that is, so it motivates me to break those habits.

I forgot to mention the sacrificing a stock thing in an earlier post. I think an important thing to do if you plan on sacrificing a stock is to be mindful of intention. For example, if you especially full hop -> naired at your previous shffl attempt, you may end up dash attacking if you don't press the jump button quite hard enough or graze it without pressing it down. However, if you had the FULL INTENTION of shffling and its not something you know you SHOULD HAVE done instead (hindsight is 20:20), then I see no problem in keeping the stock if you had a technical flub. At that point it was not a 'Damn I goofed' error, it is a 'Oops, I meant to do...' thing. I don't know, sacrificing a stock seems fine, but especially if rolling is the problem, it is sometimes done when trying to wavedash especially early on. At that point it is less of a habit problem and more of a technical consistency problem.

What works for dash attacks, in my opinion, cannot work as well with rolls. Sometimes a person will roll and it was a good option. There are good rolls in Smash, but it is terrible to do too often. I think if you punish rolling by sacrificing a stock, it will encourage NEVER rolling, which is usually a bad plan. Until you can know when a roll was good or bad, it is best not to punish it too hard, just be able to recognize the ****ty rolls. As long as you actively try to fix them, I see no reason to take a stock.

That said, for dash attacks, it is a better idea, but dash attacks are really character specific. Sheik will want to dash attack more than most other characters, but over-doing it is still bad.

 

[bearsfan092]

I really suggest not practicing DD against computers. It's okay to work your DD and try to maneuver it to any spot on the map with varied lengths, but mindgaming computers and such is a waste of time. If you do anything against computers, it's just ingraining tech skill into muscle memory. You should be able to SHFFL, waveland, and wavedash on command. Most everything else needs to be done against a person.

 

[Double Helix]

I really suggest not practicing DD against computers. It's okay to work your DD and try to maneuver it to any spot on the map with varied lengths, but mindgaming computers and such is a waste of time. If you do anything against computers, it's just ingraining tech skill into muscle memory. You should be able to SHFFL, waveland, and wavedash on command. Most everything else needs to be done against a person.

Those three things you mentioned are the first things to work on. Very true. But as someone who has only really faced a competitive player thrice in his year of playing, I know that while a person is obviously MUCH better than computers, it is better than nothing. As I said, the purpose of DDing against the computers is NOT to mask movement like it is normally done against humans, but to learn spacing of different character's moves. Being able to DD outside of a person's range is very important, and if you don't play against people, you have to learn somehow. While you are correct, I also believe that you should take what you can from playing the game. As long as you are practicing correctly, and understand the purpose of what you are doing, then you should be able to take a lot from exercises meant to be used against the AI as long as it is not incorrectly applied against human players.

 

[bearsfan092]

Yeah, but it's still so far from reality it's not worth practicing. Ever get in a dash dance fight with a good Marth? You gotta make sure he doesn't surprise you with a dash attack, JC grab, approach with a nair, etc. You have to be on your toes for his move (which is much more sudden than an AI) while managing your own DD. An AI is largely going to be in the same place. It's hard to pinpoint where someone with a good DD will be.

It's not like it's worthless, but I'd rather do something else more productive with my time.

 

[Iron Dragon]

If you're practicing WDing and wavelands and such, you can just use training mode instead of the computers, and you rightfully should.

 

[StoryTime]

If you're practicing WDing and wavelands and such, you can just use training mode instead of the computers, and you rightfully should.

When WD practicing I actually just do the single player glitch so it's just me on FD with no cpu or display to distract me. Also, I'm trying to see if jumping with Y makes WDing a little more comfortable because I use X to jump with is a little uncomfortable to WD with. So far, Y seems more comfortable and I can still SHFFL consistently.

 

[Iron Dragon]

When WD practicing I actually just do the single player glitch so it's just me on FD with no cpu or display to distract me. Also, I'm trying to see if jumping with Y makes WDing a little more comfortable because I use X to jump with is a little uncomfortable to WD with. So far, Y seems more comfortable and I can still SHFFL consistently.

Oh good. I was going to recommend that glitch but didn't know if you knew it LOL.

Yeah using Y for jumping is probably better in general I think. I still use X myself but I kinda wish I used Y, sorta too late to go back now though.

 

[StoryTime]

Oh good. I was going to recommend that glitch but didn't know if you knew it LOL.

Yeah using Y for jumping is probably better in general I think. I still use X myself but I kinda wish I used Y, sorta too late to go back now though.

WDing is definitely more comfortable with Y but I find X easier to use when SHFFLing.. But I guess I can just get used to using Y, get my thumb used to SHFFLing with Y haha. If it really comes down to it, which it probably won't, then I'll find some ridiculous way to train myself to SHFFL with X and WD with Y.

 

[Double Helix]

Well I use the Y button all the time. But I usually don't SHFFL so I don't have to worry about it. You could probably train yourself to use either button.

 

[Frogman751]

i mean if your already comfortable with it you technically can just shffl with x and wave dash with y. it sounds completely viable to me.

 

[Nimbus]

Wow. I've like never used my Y button lol the concept of using both for different things is a bit overwhelming for me :D

 

[StoryTime]

Wow. I've like never used my Y button lol the concept of using both for different things is a bit overwhelming for me :D

Well in theory, it's not much different from using A for nair and C-stick for uair/bair/dair/fair I suppose. Personally, I use L to L cancel and R for everything else.

 

[Nimbus]

Yeah, that does make sense. I just can't bring my thumb to go aaallllll the way over to the Y as opposed to the X... as if that's a good excuse haha

 

[milligraham]

Personally, I use L to L cancel and R for everything else.

Same, well maybe I should say "I use L to (try to) L cancel" because sometimes it's difficult for me to differentiate a correctly done l-cancel from a slightly off-time l-cancel.
One way I test to see if I did it right is by trying to jump immediately after landing.

 

[StoryTime]

Same, well maybe I should say "I use L to (try to) L cancel" because sometimes it's difficult for me to differentiate a correctly done l-cancel from a slightly off-time l-cancel.
One way I test to see if I did it right is by trying to jump immediately after landing.

I've practiced SHFFLing enough I can tell if I miss an L cancel, I can just feel it. Soon enough you'll feel it too. If you practice on a low lvl cpu and try to string together SHFFLs and miss your L cancels then you probably won't be able to string the combo long enough. Also, now I feel WDing is becoming more consistent, but not completely, but definitely more consistent than say, last night. Hopefully I can get WDing down as consistently as my SHFFLing :D

 

[The 2t]

Same, well maybe I should say "I use L to (try to) L cancel" because sometimes it's difficult for me to differentiate a correctly done l-cancel from a slightly off-time l-cancel.
One way I test to see if I did it right is by trying to jump immediately after landing.

I just play melee from USB these days with the flash on L-cancel code in, it's nice (that way I can play NTSC instead of PAL, not that there's even much of a difference but meh).

 

[Double Helix]

The way I learn to see when I miss an L-cancel is to intentionally miss an L-cancel then mash jab. Memorize how long it takes to jab after a missed L-cancel. Then try to L-cancel the aerials and immediately jab. It should be noticeably faster, regardless of the lag on aerial. Though the flash on L-cancel would be highly effective XD

 

[StoryTime]

Oh and also, JC grabs: check. The timing is insanely simple. Got that done hahaha. And to make sure I was doing it right I compared JC grab with dash grab. The animation lengths are really different and easy to tell apart. Should I always be JCing my grabs out of a dash?

 

[Nimbus]

Oh and also, JC grabs: check. The timing is insanely simple. Got that done hahaha. And to make sure I was doing it right I compared JC grab with dash grab. The animation lengths are really different and easy to tell apart. Should I always be JCing my grabs out of a dash?

Ideally, you'll never see yourself do the dash grab animation ever again. So yes lol

 

[Comatose]

Oh and also, JC grabs: check. The timing is insanely simple. Got that done hahaha. And to make sure I was doing it right I compared JC grab with dash grab. The animation lengths are really different and easy to tell apart. Should I always be JCing my grabs out of a dash?

Some characters there are times when you want to "grunt grab" but its really only useful for sheik and the marios, so not really something you have to worry about unless you pick any of them up as a secondary (its relatively simple as well, instead of cancelling a jump into a grab you cancel a dash attack)

 

[Double Helix]

So the dash cancelled grab. It will never come up as Falcon, and the only character you won't necessarily want to JC grab with is Bowser. So the JC grab is all you need. In any case, a huge part of Falcon's game is his grab game. So be sure that you know forward and back throws suck.

 

[milligraham]

I've noticed something strange about when I try to wavedash. It feels like if I put less effort in/care less about the wavedash I'm more likely to do it successfully. I'm not sure why.

 

[StoryTime]

I've noticed something strange about when I try to wavedash. It feels like if I put less effort in/care less about the wavedash I'm more likely to do it successfully. I'm not sure why.

Maybe because your more relaxed and not so tense which helps your fingers flow better? That would make sense. My WDs are slowly becoming more consistent so I'm pretty psyched about that

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

So the dash cancelled grab. It will never come up as Falcon, and the only character you won't necessarily want to JC grab with is Bowser. So the JC grab is all you need. In any case, a huge part of Falcon's game is his grab game. So be sure that you know forward and back throws suck.

Peach also, her JC grab is worse than her dash grab and not much different anyway. Also with Link JC grabbing hardly makes a difference. But I'm just nitpicking

 

[Massive]

the only character you won't necessarily want to JC grab with is Bowser.

Err... Samus? Bowser's JC grab is still better since dashgrab comes out a frame later and moves his hurtbox up substantially.

Samus's dash grab gets out of vulnerable frames faster, stays active longer, creates a close hitbox, and comes out on the same frame as her regular grab.

 

[Double Helix]

Err... Samus? Bowser's JC grab is still better since dashgrab comes out a frame later and moves his hurtbox up substantially.

Samus's dash grab gets out of vulnerable frames faster, stays active longer, creates a close hitbox, and comes out on the same frame as her regular grab.

Ok so I missed a few characters. But Bowser's JC grab is worse. The range you gain from dash grabbing is worth the frame wait. But either way, at least we agree that with Falcon, always JC grab.

 

[StoryTime]

Today was a productive day. I practiced my SHFFL so i dont get rusty, worked on WDing more and its rather consistent now, i only mess up sometimes and so i decided to mix DDing with WDing so i started DDing on FD while WDing back after i dash left or right.

 

[StoryTime]

Double post >.> but at this point i can WD quite consistently, and I did in fact learn how to use both the X and Y buttons for SHFFLing and WDing respectively. At this point what else should I work on? I know there's still different types of DI, learning my recovery, and my DD game is still at an extremely early stage (but i can implement WDing into it now). I also learned how to ledge hop for edge guarding, getting back on stage, and ledge hop knee shenanigans. So where should I take my practice now?

 

[JKJ]

I would recommend you take your practice to the realm of basic survival DI. Get a computer (or ideally, friend) to use all the characters different strong kill moves on you at high percent, and practice DIing them to survive. There is far more to DI than survival DI alone, but survival DI will help the most starting out. Also, learn to waveland on to the stage from the ledge, and from falling normally.

 

[StoryTime]

So like from spacies it would be bair, falcon would be knee, shiek fair, marth fsmash? Things like that? Also is survival DI up+in on control stick and up on c-stick?

 

[Double Helix]

So like from spacies it would be bair, falcon would be knee, shiek fair, marth fsmash? Things like that? Also is survival DI up+in on control stick and up on c-stick?

Yeah. That is an important thing. Survival DI is something you can kinda learn just by watching matches. The commentators generally comment on DI, and so you can tell whether or not the player could do better. Another thing to do is watch streams of Melee (pbnj23, smashstudios, meleeitonme, clashtournaments, vgbootcamp) and people in the chat will normally be happy to help. We are always looking to better the community, so don't ever think too many questions are asked. Some really good things to watch would be Mango breaking down matches from EVO on the MeleeItOnMe channel. There is some talk of combo/survival DI, but overall it is helpful to know the thought process of a high level player. It may not help an immense amount now, but it can be helpful later. All the streams I have mentioned are on twitch. There are other ones (usually on the front page of these forums). I don't know any Melee streams on another site.

 

[Iron Dragon]

You can even practice things in the realm of survival DI on your own. While the examples you gave for the top tiers characters work well Story Time, you can take more extreme measures that may give you an even better idea such as Ganon's neutral B and up tilt.

These are good moves to go with because you can plug in other controllers (if you have them) and try the moves on your own since they have long startup and hit REALLY REALLY F'IN HARD.

You can also try things like double jumping into the air then doing Falcon's up B, and move around during it. Falcon gets hit off stage a lot so having a basic idea of how Falcon can maneuver himself in the air during up B is a good thing to know.

At this point more than anything you should be still practicing the basics that you know but also you can step up to watching videos and taking notes about them if you so choose. Notice different DIs people use on combos and what happens to them. Notice things for example like DIing Falcon's up air in is bad etc.