"He's Too Slow!" My Thread Asking How to Improve Sonic

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

I'm making a DS-version of Smash, as a homebrew-game. I'm trying to improve everyone, and I very much like Sonic: I don't know what to do with him, though. I only get the feeling of wasted potential.

My plans thus far:

• Make Sonic's run VASTLY faster than in Brawl; Warioman-bike speed, even.
• Allow the momentum from Sonic's run to carry into a jump.
• Remove air-trip from up-B.
• Make down-B considerably faster than new run.
• Allow rolling from dair's landing-lag.
• Change nair to his air-attack in Sonic Advance.
• Give Sonic options of red and yellow fur, because MvC1 taught us that references like that are fun.

I want to modify the Homing Attack, but it's a bit too much to put on a list. If a player just taps B, Sonic'll immediately go after someone (or go in the held direction, if there's no target nearby). If you hold B, you'll see that the first few frames of the attack are a counter! The counter-hit is a straight shot towards the attack, not a curved one. The counter can be quit by releasing B (causing Sonic to go after someone) or by pressing Shield (to completely cancel the move).

The air-trip removal doesn't make Sonic invincible: it only gives him a Snake-like recovery, which isn't extremely bad. My hardest puzzle is the side-B: it doesn't seem like much. I know it has some ATs tied to it, but there's GOT to be something better for Sonic to use!

 

[Suna]

why would you want to run as fast as wario mans bike??? so you can kill yourself?

Sonic is fine in brawl he just dies too quickly IMO

 

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

You're no fun!

why would you want to run as fast as wario mans bike??? so you can kill yourself?

Sonic is fine in brawl he just dies too quickly IMO

This ain't Brawl we're talking about, though, ace.

Sonic can easily be made more manageable than Warioman's bike. Being able to easily turn around will go a long way, I bet.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

other than warioman bike speed = suicide, I aplaud the effort.

Edit: if it's managable, then sure. your game, your rules =/

 

[JesseMeza]

Make his Dair grab onto the ledge. That is all.

 

[Irsic]

<_<

I would at least say give his usmash or dsmash better kill percentages.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Faster turning speed in his run, and spins. Seriously. Oh, and if you want to make him broken, make the bouncer part of his spring spike <3

 

[Browny]

it does spike. its just very weak

 

[TwinkleToes]

Honestly, rather than making him run faster (which isn't going to do much) make him accelerate in the air faster. He doesn't need to be like Jiggs or anything, he just shouldn't handle like a rock in a free-fall every time he jumps.

 

[infomon]

I don't mean to doubt your abilities, but minor issues about how to tweak a character should be the last thing you're thinking about. Getting a working engine for a project of this scope will take a lot longer than tweaking characters' movesets. Not to discourage you, it sounds like an awesome project and I hope it goes well! (I dabbled in GBA-rom dev for a bit, it was fuuunnnn....)

 

[Blistering Speed]

Lawl, you're making every character in the game ridiculous in one way or another.

 

[Suna]

This ain't Brawl we're talking about, though, ace.

Sonic can easily be made more manageable than Warioman's bike. Being able to easily turn around will go a long way, I bet.

yea I know we aren't talking about brawl, but you said you want to imporove him and I said he is fine just dies too quick so thats all you should change

 

[JOE!]

Make him x2.5 falcon;s max speed, that should cover it

as for improving him, make his spin attacks have a bit less start-up lag, and the ability to shield poke, with a disjointed hitbox while hes spinning

that will do wonders

 

[Chis]

Base him on the real Sonic according to canon.

Thread//

 

[ShadowLink84]

Keep the spring
Make the homing attack much better.
Making the spincharge charge faster and cause damage when being charged. Oh and it moves faster than Sonic.
keep Sonic as the fastest character but run and dash wise.
Faster moves.

Give him a spike.

Also I recommend looking at jump if you need ideas on controls. It pulls it off rather well, you can even include dash attacks.
I wish you luck dude, if only NIntendo had the brain to do something similar.

 

[Camalange]

Don't listen to Suna, Sonic doesn't die too easily. He's like, the most middle weight of all the characters in the game and with proper DI can live to pretty crazy percents.

Make him be able to go Super Sonic whenever you get to 50% damage.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

I C wut u did their lol

DS doesn't have analog control...... Do we want Sonic faster?XD If you make running/walking button reliant like Mario 64 DS, Please make it hold the button to walk instead of run.

He definatly needs to be more manuverable in the air. And give him some more power to his attacks and I'd be happy.

 

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

I don't mean to doubt your abilities, but minor issues about how to tweak a character should be the last thing you're thinking about. Getting a working engine for a project of this scope will take a lot longer than tweaking characters' movesets. Not to discourage you, it sounds like an awesome project and I hope it goes well! (I dabbled in GBA-rom dev for a bit, it was fuuunnnn....)

I spend ALOT of time working on the engine: I've gotten collision, some basic test-rendering, and the overall program-structure done. I'm optimizing input, now. The problem is that I burn-out, every so often, and I focus on character-design as a break from programming. On that note: spikes! I have two planned! The first hitting-frame of dair and when a spring is first spawned are both planned to be honest-to-God effective spikes.

I haven't read the whole thread, yet; but I've also this to say: I plan to return dash-dancing, which'll do wonders for Sonic's maneuverability; and I'm all for a ledge-grabbing dair.

(I've skimmed through everything, now!)

Double-tapping left/right initiates dashing, and Sonic—along with Samus—is getting a special air-dash thing! Sonic doesn't actually move, with his air-dash: he begins his running-animation while in the air, and'll immediately be going when he hits the ground: his feet'll be a multi-hit attack, when airborne. Releasing the direction will immediately stop the air-dash. With some DI-factors, and the ability to do it an unlimited amount of times, Sonic's air-dash'll be a great way to survive longer and change orientation while in the air. Something that just hit me; if Sonic air-dashes and hits someone, he could propel himself forward, like some kind of footstooling.

The air-dash is actually easier done than said, coding-wise, if things keep going as smoothly as they've been.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Hmm don't put an air dash for Sonic. Or at least make it an animation for he turns into a ball form.

 

[MarKO X]

Practical improvements:

- Slightly faster
- Make the kicks and the spin attacks (i.e. nair) a bit more powerful.
- Make Dair his axe kick spike from Sonic Battle.
- More priority for the Spin Dash and Spin Charge.
- Faster Spin Dash, Spin Charge

Impractical Improvements (like a secret character Sonic or something):

-Give nair frames of invincibility equal to that of Sonic 3 insta-shield (I think it's 2 or 3 frames, I don't remember)
- Make the homing attack like it is in Sonic Adventure.
- Replace SideB with Projectile attack from Sonic Battle.
- Give DownB a hitbox such that if someone runs into you, they get hurt (like in any 2D Sonic game)
- replace star spring with a Sonic 2 red spring.

Air dashing would be cool as well.

 

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

Hmm don't put an air dash for Sonic. Or at least make it an animation for he turns into a ball form.

Don't put an air-dash in, even if it doesn't actually move him? I'll, uh, at least do the ball-form.

Practical improvements:

- Slightly faster
- Make the kicks and the spin attacks (i.e. nair) a bit more powerful.
- Make Dair his axe kick spike from Sonic Battle.
- More priority for the Spin Dash and Spin Charge.
- Faster Spin Dash, Spin Charge

Impractical Improvements (like a secret character Sonic or something):

-Give nair frames of invincibility equal to that of Sonic 3 insta-shield (I think it's 2 or 3 frames, I don't remember)
- Make the homing attack like it is in Sonic Adventure.
- Replace SideB with Projectile attack from Sonic Battle.
- Give DownB a hitbox such that if someone runs into you, they get hurt (like in any 2D Sonic game)
- replace star spring with a Sonic 2 red spring.

Air dashing would be cool as well.

• 2 or 3 frames of invincibility ain't all that much, I wouldn't say: I'll test it on "normal" Sonic, once I'm able.
• With proper tweaking (which I'll be thinking about for the rest of the day), I may be able to combine Sonic's down- and side-B, to allow for a projectile of sorts.
• Down-B hitbox is okay by me; as is the power-boost.

Could you outline how Sonic Adventure's Homing Attack is different from my own proposal? I thought I had it about covered?

 

[MarKO X]

Oops... missed that part in the OP. Yeah, that homing attack would be pretty **** good.

 

[infomon]

OK, if you're at the taking-a-break-from-coding phase, then awesome. Sounds like you know what you're doing then

What's the display rate of a DS screen? Making Sonic go super-fast might not be the best idea for a handheld. Then again, I can play Brawl okay using the 1.5" LCD screen on my camcorder (don't ask).... lol.

 

[Suna]

Don't listen to Suna, Sonic doesn't die too easily. He's like, the most middle weight of all the characters in the game and with proper DI can live to pretty crazy percents.

Make him be able to go Super Sonic whenever you get to 50% damage.

what really?! If I get smashed at like 90% I can almost get star KOed

 

[MarKO X]

what really?! If I get smashed at like 90% I can almost get star KOed

DI Better? Seriously, Sonic lives for a bit longer cause he's heavier than most people realize. With proper DI, surviving in terms of taking a hit isn't really a problem with Sonic.

Unless, you are getting hit by certain devastating Usmashes.

 

[Suna]

DI Better? Seriously, Sonic lives for a bit longer cause he's heavier than most people realize. With proper DI, surviving in terms of taking a hit isn't really a problem with Sonic.

Unless, you are getting hit by certain devastating Usmashes.

I'll work on that, and not only the smashes but some charaters have those up-tilts that are like smashes(Snake,Ike)

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

sonic should keep both spin specials, imo.

 

[infomon]

^^ why? All of their important properties could easily be combined into one.

• Allow shield-cancelling of the charge on the ground (side-B)
• Allow shield-cancelling of the aerial as it lands (down-B)
• Released normally, it acts like down-B; ASC in the air, immediate SDR on the ground.
• From the ground, you can SDJ/VSDJ as with both side-B and down-B
• Make it so SDJ/VSDJ can be "shorthopped", which is a hop like side-B's. It can only be cancelled with a jump-cancel, as with side-B, but you could do this out of an SDR instead of doing a full SDJ (imagine: SDR rolling along ground, goes into a side-B "hop", goes back to rolling along the ground; awesome!)
• From the air charging state, you can either release it like an ASC (down-B), Jump input does a jump-cancel (like both side-B and down-B), or you can use Attack input to release an aerial hop like an aerial side-B.

Suddenly it's an awesome move as opposed to a good move and an okay move. And you wouldn't have the dumb problem where two Specials use the same stale-moves counter, since they're legitimately the same move now.

 

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

Here's what I came up with for combining both spin-attacks:

• Upon releasing the charge, you can switch your direction by holding the opposite direction.
• The charge can by shield-canceled.
• The charge can be jump-cancelled.
• To get the small hop of the old side-B, hold up upon releasing the charge.

I'm not against anything infzy said, but I… uh, don't quite understand it: I've never been able to keep straight Sonic's AT-notations. I'd love to incorporate what he said, and I'll even work with him and other Sonic-mains to make sure everything's combined well.

I watched a few videos of Sonic Battle, and I really like the idea of giving Sonic the projectile he has within that game! Perhaps the longer one holds down B, with the projectile, the farther the blast (and Sonic) go? Along with the air-dash and the new down-B, mind-games'll be a blast to pull off. Plus, Sonic'll have a great number of recovery-moves with the side-B's hop, his second jump, his up-B, and a quasi-controllable inert-case Homing Attack.

Would it be too much to give every charge the projectile-clashing blue glow? or if only the side-B's glow was a legitimate projectile-stopper?

 

[Napilopez]

This sounds really cool =]

The one thing I really want that I don't think anyone has mentioned is the ability to go directly from ballform into a run and viceversa, like you could in many games XD. Can you imagine guys? SDR hit

Make sure you keep the ASC(Aerial Spin Charge) properties as close to what they are now as you can!(hold forward to hit twice for aroud 18 damage, can be jump cancelled) Check tenki's thread in the stickies for more info.

SDR: Spin Dash Roll: The roll from both SideB and DownB, once they start moving quickly or after hitting the ground)
ASC: Aerial Spin Charge: Release a DownB in the air allows for a multihit attack so long as you just hold forward. Usually hits twice for 18 damage, may hit thrice on large enough characters or good angles.
SDJ: Spin Dash Jump, from either DownB or upB
VSDJ: Vertcal Spin Dash Jump, when you vump at a 90 degree perfectly vertical angle from a charged DownBB or SideB

 

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

This sounds really cool =]

The one thing I really want that I don't think anyone has mentioned is the ability to go directly from ballform into a run and viceversa, like you could in many games XD. Can you imagine guys? SDR hit

Make sure you keep the ASC(Aerial Spin Charge) properties as close to what they are now as you can!(hold forward to hit twice for aroud 18 damage, can be jump cancelled) Check tenki's thread in the stickies for more info.

SDR: Spin Dash Roll: The roll from both SideB and DownB, once they start moving quickly or after hitting the ground)
ASC: Aerial Spin Charge: Release a DownB in the air allows for a multihit attack so long as you just hold forward. Usually hits twice for 18 damage, may hit thrice on large enough characters or good angles.
SDJ: Spin Dash Jump, from either DownB or upB
VSDJ: Vertcal Spin Dash Jump, when you vump at a 90 degree perfectly vertical angle from a charged DownBB or SideB

Yeah; I've read 'em, but they just oddly never stick.

The "run from roll"-thing's bugged me for a while, I recall: I'd love for his dash-attack to be as lagless as Diddy's, for example (it's not like it's going to make the two identical or anything, right?). "Jump-canceling" always meant both jumping from the roll and the Blanka-like vertical roll Sonic does, to me: don't worry about semantics leaving anything out!

The DS can run at 60 frames per second, assuming good code.

 

[infomon]

If you're having trouble remembering all Sonic's weird properties of his side-B and down-B, my explanation vid might help:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ34M-Bdo6k

but if it's the acronyms that are giving you trouble.... it just takes getting used to them all o_O lol

 

[Irsic]

You should make Sonic's nAir reflect projectiles.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

Double-tapping left/right initiates dashing

I've never tried using the wii remote by itself,but that's how it is set up as well. Is it possible to dash dance with this configuration?

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

Speed up Fair. make it as fast as MKs Dsmash. That will give him a good kill move.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Lol, give him the insta-shield, or whatever it's called, from Sonic3. So he can reflect lazers and attack at the same time. =D

 

[thecatinthehat]

Lol, give him the insta-shield, or whatever it's called, from Sonic3. So he can reflect lazers and attack at the same time. =D

That'd be ridiculously broken.

 

[Camalange]

Lol, give him the insta-shield, or whatever it's called, from Sonic3. So he can reflect lazers and attack at the same time. =D

This.

Also, whenever Sonic is in the water, give him that crazy bubble thing that let's you breath forever and bounce around...which also deflects projectiles.

<3Sonic 3

I might actually go play it now.

 

[thecatinthehat]

I hate Sonic games.

No not really. I'm just not a fanboy.

 

[Camalange]

I hate CiTH.

No not really. I just don't like you. jk<3