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Data Hero-King's Council: Video Analysis

DariusM27

Smash Ace
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
518
After the shieldbreak I didn't think I had enough time to push him to the ledge and full charged tipper, so I went with a different punish lol.
Thanks! I have hundreds of Marth videos and they will keep coming :D
Here ya go. Works every time ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCEtBqmYb94

Yeah man, check out mine too when you have time! Oh btw! Are there any inputs that you do in like, a very specific way?

Like, it looks like you are good at landing Marth's Uair, and I'm trying to figure out if your are doing
full hop - ff - uair (and do you fastfall at the earliest possible moment or do you delay it?)
or
full hop - ff - uair - ff

I know some of my hitboxes wouldn't come out at well without the right timing, so I was just curious. Thanks!
 

JayE

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 12, 2016
Messages
374
Location
Hyrule and Altea, the universes of Zelda and FE
NNID
PinoyPlayerJ
3DS FC
2982-0290-3968
Here ya go. Works every time ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCEtBqmYb94

Yeah man, check out mine too when you have time! Oh btw! Are there any inputs that you do in like, a very specific way?

Like, it looks like you are good at landing Marth's Uair, and I'm trying to figure out if your are doing
full hop - ff - uair (and do you fastfall at the earliest possible moment or do you delay it?)
or
full hop - ff - uair - ff

I know some of my hitboxes wouldn't come out at well without the right timing, so I was just curious. Thanks!
Yeah landing up airs is my thing, something I'm known for lol
Hmm... I haven't really thought about what I'm specifically doing to land the up air. I've been using Marth so much that its become second nature or something at this point.
I think I usually full hop, fastfall, and then do the up air. It depends of course and what my opponent is doing, seeing if I can punish it with a up air to start a combo or something. Like if they're doing a move that has a small window to land the up air, I fastfall first then do the up air. But if I am confident that I have time to do it, then I'll do the up air and then fastfall. Same thing when I try to land first hit nair too. Its just based off what situation I'm in, I guess. Also depending on the opponent's height, if its Sheik then I don't have to time it as close to ground than if I'm trying to do it on Pikachu or someone shorter
 
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DariusM27

Smash Ace
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
518
Yeah landing up airs is my thing, something I'm known for lol
Hmm... I haven't really thought about what I'm specifically doing to land the up air. I've been using Marth so much that its become second nature or something at this point.
I think I usually full hop, fastfall, and then do the up air. It depends of course and what my opponent is doing, seeing if I can punish it with a up air to start a combo or something. Like if they're doing a move that has a small window to land the up air, I fastfall first then do the up air. But if I am confident that I have time to do it, then I'll do the up air and then fastfall. Same thing when I try to land first hit nair too. Its just based off what situation I'm in, I guess. Also depending on the opponent's height, if its Sheik then I don't have to time it as close to ground than if I'm trying to do it on Pikachu or someone shorter
Yeah, it seems like your Uairs are delayed a bit so they land at the right spot. I need to get me some of that :)
 
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Vipermoon

King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
2,661
Location
PNW
Switch FC
SW-3371-7457-0227
Just think. Marth had pretty much none of these combos in early Smash 4. Man we had it bad. Good thing everyone at the game so we didn't suffer too badly.

Anyway, JayE JayE your Marth is looking good. I noticed there were a few times when you had the ledge and he was coming to grab it shortly after. Instead of edgeguarding you went to the stage. Just make sure you can't capitalize before getting on stage; these could be stock opportunities. And of course, if you get command grabbed, tech/tech-jump and punish his end lag. Back when I played Cloud for the Falcon MU (I dropped Cloud), I was so good at punishing that end lag that I would go down to get grabbed on purpose, tech-jump, then Fair spike (sometimes not a spike depending on how far they are from the stage but still a good hit) them. I was at near 100% accuracy with it.
 
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JayE

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 12, 2016
Messages
374
Location
Hyrule and Altea, the universes of Zelda and FE
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PinoyPlayerJ
3DS FC
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Just think. Marth had pretty much none of these combos in early Smash 4. Man we had it bad. Good thing everyone sucked too much at the game so we didn't suffer too badly.

Anyway, JayE JayE your Marth is looking good. I noticed there were a few times when you had the ledge and he was coming to grab it shortly after. Instead of edgeguarding you went to the stage. Just make sure you can't capitalize before getting on stage; these could be stock opportunities. And of course, if you get command grabbed, tech/tech-jump and punish his end lag. Back when I played Cloud for the Falcon MU (I dropped Cloud), I was so good at punishing that end lag that I would go down to get grabbed on purpose, tech-jump, then Fair spike (sometimes not a spike depending on how far they are from the stage but still a good hit) them. I was at near 100% accuracy with it.
Yeah Marth at the beginning of Smash 4... he could do a few of the combos he can do now, just not as well or effectively, and couldn't extend them as well since he had less range pre patch. But yeah we did have it rough... but I still played Marth just as much as I do now. I'm super glad we got the needed changes.
Thanks! Yeah I know I made some mistakes,but everyone does and nobody plays perfectly. But I appreciate your insight. That match I shared was one of my more popular ones against Falcon, since we were talking about that MU. I have a lot of entertaining Marth stuff on my Youtube, I have most of my videos sorted into playlists.
I hope I don't get strikes for sharing my videos too often or something, or sound conceited, I just like sharing my content. Well, then again this is a video analysis thread
 
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Vipermoon

King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
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PNW
Switch FC
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Thanks! Yeah I know I made some mistakes,but everyone does and nobody plays perfectly. But I appreciate your insight.
Oh, of course. It goes without saying that we all make dumb mistakes in this game all the time. You played very well!
 
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JayE

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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Hyrule and Altea, the universes of Zelda and FE
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Oh, of course. It goes without saying that we all make dumb mistakes in this game all the time. You played very well!
Yep! It does go without saying, but I have a habit of saying things just in case... you know if someone doesn't understand somehow. Its like when a subscriber watches one of my matches, sees a mistake I did, and comments something like "You usually play better than this" based off of a little bit of what they saw. I just respond to that with like I said, nobody plays perfectly, everyone makes mistakes. And also other factors, like lag on wifi, and the fact that sometimes, you simply are just off your game somedays. You're not at your best every single moment. Consistency can be difficult to attain
 

DariusM27

Smash Ace
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
518
So. not sure how Leo grabbed this banana and still did a full hop from the ledge. I haven't done that before, but I'll lab it to see if I can make it happen. Seems like a good option to go for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj4Usq4YjHk&t=9m29s

Edit - wait, nvr mind. He was able to grab the banana because it hadn't landed on the stage yet, it was still midair.

EDIT EDIT - Bowserboy3 Bowserboy3 Here are those Bayo games. Heeeeeeeeeeeeelp meeeeeeeeee lololol

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ba3qN6sUe8

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxhtZVN562Y

3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhgYKui4Zss
 
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Bowserboy3

Asking mum how to talk to a lady
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DariusM27 DariusM27 - I just watched those 3 videos. Here's some feedback from a guy who uses both Marth AND Bayonetta...

Right, I'm not sure what your overall playstyle with Marth is, but to me it looked like you wanted to approach and get those hits in on Bayonetta. This can work against Bayonetta, but you're far better off playing it defensive or punishing Bayonetta's approaches.

I play an overall more defensive Marth, one that spaces more around the opponent and studies reactions. This can be a little strange to try and get down a first, but playing against characters like Bayonetta it really helps. The most simple thing to do is to space your quicker and safer moves just out of Bayonetta's range; not on her shield, not even at tipper range, but just outside of her shield (spacing on shield at tipper range is better against others though). Use things like rising SH Fair faded back, or a rising FH Fair into fade back Nair this way. At this range, Bayonetta cannot actually punish Marth, as all of her options are too slow. You can use this see what she does. It's often best to land into your shield so you can 9 times out of 10 safely grab one of her punish attempts. Depending on how laggy it is (missed grab, Dash Attack, Heel Slide, whiffed Witch Time, Smash Attack etc), it's often better to drop shield and Dancing Blade for a more reliable punish and overall better stage control.

I know you've seen it before, but here is me vs a Bayonetta in tournament (got them to send me the replay): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzcly9QgMiY

You can see at various points me spacing just away from her shield with aerials: 0:20 and 0:42 are a couple of examples. The 2nd example helped show me that this player likes to dodge after I space around his shield - I put that into the memory bank for later. At 1:09, I opted to charge an Up Smash; I predicted that the Bayonetta would attempt to air dodge, or even Witch Time, which is why I charged it, to punish the failed attempt. However, they used Nair, so I let rip early (just in time, we traded).

At 1:19, I remembered the Bayonetta likes her dodges, so after the Dthrow, I empty hopped and punished the air dodge with an Utilt to Uair combo (what's sad here is that I was a PIXEL away from a tipper Fsmash... look out for the sparks :().

2:16 is another thing you can do; while I totally forgot about it, remember you can Counter a Afterburner Kick recovery - I should have done this looking back.

If you take note, you can see as the percent rises on me, I get less and less likely to approach. Bayonetta needs to come to me if she wants to win, so I literally just wait, because I know I can punish her.

Another final note, is to ALWAYS make sure to recover low against Bayonetta. NEVER use your jump until you are far below the ledge. Bayonetta can go down that low to try and intercept if she's gutsy, but she will be looking to simply run off the ledge and Witch Twist you; this is far easier and catches air dodges often times, and with no jump, you will be dead. Save that jump and recover low.

If I think of any more later, I'll be sure to add more, but in short, try not to be the one landing the first hits, and be the one baiting and punishing, and this MU is do-able. :)
 
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DariusM27

Smash Ace
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
518
DariusM27 DariusM27 - I just watched those 3 videos. Here's some feedback from a guy who uses both Marth AND Bayonetta...

Right, I'm not sure what your overall playstyle with Marth is, but to me it looked like you wanted to approach and get those hits in on Bayonetta. This can work against Bayonetta, but you're far better off playing it defensive or punishing Bayonetta's approaches.

I play an overall more defensive Marth, one that spaces more around the opponent and studies reactions. This can be a little strange to try and get down a first, but playing against characters like Bayonetta it really helps. The most simple thing to do is to space your quicker and safer moves just out of Bayonetta's range; not on her shield, not even at tipper range, but just outside of her shield (spacing on shield at tipper range is better against others though). Use things like rising SH Fair faded back, or a rising FH Fair into fade back Nair this way. At this range, Bayonetta cannot actually punish Marth, as all of her options are too slow. You can use this see what she does. It's often best to land into your shield so you can 9 times out of 10 safely grab one of her punish attempts. Depending on how laggy it is (missed grab, Dash Attack, Heel Slide, whiffed Witch Time, Smash Attack etc), it's often better to drop shield and Dancing Blade for a more reliable punish and overall better stage control.

I know you've seen it before, but here is me vs a Bayonetta in tournament (got them to send me the replay): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzcly9QgMiY

You can see at various points me spacing just away from her shield with aerials: 0:20 and 0:42 are a couple of examples. The 2nd example helped show me that this player likes to dodge after I space around his shield - I put that into the memory bank for later. At 1:09, I opted to charge an Up Smash; I predicted that the Bayonetta would attempt to air dodge, or even Witch Time, which is why I charged it, to punish the failed attempt. However, they used Nair, so I let rip early (just in time, we traded).

At 1:19, I remembered the Bayonetta likes her dodges, so after the Dthrow, I empty hopped and punished the air dodge with an Utilt to Uair combo (what's sad here is that I was a PIXEL away from a tipper Fsmash... look out for the sparks :().

2:16 is another thing you can do; while I totally forgot about it, remember you can Counter a Afterburner Kick recovery - I should have done this looking back.

If you take note, you can see as the percent rises on me, I get less and less likely to approach. Bayonetta needs to come to me if she wants to win, so I literally just wait, because I know I can punish her.

Another final note, is to ALWAYS make sure to recover low against Bayonetta. NEVER use your jump until you are far below the ledge. Bayonetta can go down that low to try and intercept if she's gutsy, but she will be looking to simply run off the ledge and Witch Twist you; this is far easier and catches air dodges often times, and with no jump, you will be dead. Save that jump and recover low.

If I think of any more later, I'll be sure to add more, but in short, try not to be the one landing the first hits, and be the one baiting and punishing, and this MU is do-able. :)
Thanks very much for the notes and video. I'll try to put it into practice!
 

Sir Lancelot

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 17, 2015
Messages
58
You played pretty well, though there were a few recurring mistakes. First, you tried short hopping into Yoshi in neutral, but then airdodged halfway through and suffered landing lag - this is how you lost game 1(I assume you were just panicking or something). Either airdodge at the beginning of the jump into an aerial (SHAD), or just empty hop and land. Second, you always ledge hopped from the ledge, which he caught on to at the end with the dair in game 2. Try being aware of what options you used before and mix it up with standard get-up or roll since they get more invincibility. Third, when juggling Yoshi, stay out of his range and in tipper range. There were a few times when you were juggling with up air, but he airdodged through and punished you with nair or up air instead. If you notice this, try empty hopping to bait the airdodge, then land and shield into a punish. Finally, imo should play a bit more grounded and defensive. You mostly used spaced nairs and fairs, but this gets kinda linear after a while. Remember that Dancing Blade racks up tons of damage and kills at later percents. Also jab more, it pretty much is free area control and Yoshi can't really contest it.
Hope this helps!
 

vegeta18

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 24, 2012
Messages
321
You played pretty well, though there were a few recurring mistakes. First, you tried short hopping into Yoshi in neutral, but then airdodged halfway through and suffered landing lag - this is how you lost game 1(I assume you were just panicking or something). Either airdodge at the beginning of the jump into an aerial (SHAD), or just empty hop and land. Second, you always ledge hopped from the ledge, which he caught on to at the end with the dair in game 2. Try being aware of what options you used before and mix it up with standard get-up or roll since they get more invincibility. Third, when juggling Yoshi, stay out of his range and in tipper range. There were a few times when you were juggling with up air, but he airdodged through and punished you with nair or up air instead. If you notice this, try empty hopping to bait the airdodge, then land and shield into a punish. Finally, imo should play a bit more grounded and defensive. You mostly used spaced nairs and fairs, but this gets kinda linear after a while. Remember that Dancing Blade racks up tons of damage and kills at later percents. Also jab more, it pretty much is free area control and Yoshi can't really contest it.
Hope this helps!
yes definitely does, i for some reason never noticed this forum was a thing ill try and work on those things and post something else in the future!
 

Nyhte

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 19, 2014
Messages
43
wow no one posted since my last post in december, i actually played the same yoshi in tournament recently and did a lot better, can anyone critique these 2 sets and give me some advice? or just one of them. The yoshi also switched to diddy game 3 and im really bad at that mu


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vtTgNSI7Yw&t=406s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H0jm-bzIY8&t=1s
Congratulations on doing better

First video:

around 3:00 that dair given the circumstances seemed really out of place and random, a big missed opportunity

around 3:12 you went onto the stage from ledge and landed with a nair, uair would have been better

Match 1 you started really strong but then it seems he caught on to your movement or something. A big flaw in these matches for you is wrong reads, you're doing things just a little too slow or reading him wrong and he punishes you for it with a moving hitbox... well he might be reading you too and just spacing more properly than you when he does land hits

around 5:54 he got onto the stage without anything from you, you should have punished him, then got you off stage with a ledge gimp, there's not much to say about that except practice your ledge techs, I'm guessing the egg threw off your timing

around 7:00 you jab>ftilt when jab1>jab1 might have landed instead, he airdodged the ftilt, well jab1>jab2 probably would have worked too

around 8:40 you airdodged his attack and then neutral aired which didn't connect when it seems up air would have hit

Towards the end it seems like you didn't jump off the ledge onto the stage enough, then he got a read, you used a short hop off the ledge into his charged smash

You land and miss aerials sometimes, so you'll hear the sound go off but nothing visually/little or no hitboxes. Your aerial game looks like it needs improvement and that coupled with you being a seemingly read based player results in moments around 2:30, where you're near a clean stock and get comboed for a long time across the stage.

Disclaimer: I have my moments but I'm not a good player, I tried going for the obvious things, I could be missing a lot more
 

DariusM27

Smash Ace
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
518
Hey Marth boards :)
Here is a recent tourney set of mine, i would appreciate some general feedback on my Marth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXdDRblHIIU
There's different things that could be observed and discussed about your matches, and that applies to any match - the big picture - neutral things and then there is fine details - spacing/frame data/ect...

I just have one big picture concept for you to consider. Consider at all times your risk/reward situation. Don't gamble the whole set on a big strong hit that - if it wiffs - you will almost definitely be punished for heavy ending lag.
The last hit you went for, for instance, was a miss-spaced Fsmash.
Instead, you could have done an option that would still have applied offensive pressure, while leaving you more safe afterwords. In that case, you could have done many things - like, short hop Fair on Sonic's Shield, then drifted off stage to avoid his counter attack. Or you could have done a Dtilt or Ftilt.

One thing very interesting about ZeRo's Lucina is that it's perhaps the most effective and successful usage of the character, and perhaps more effective than any other player has achieved, yet ZeRo's Lucina has been called boring and repetitive. "Just a bunch of Fairs and Bairs"
Of course, that's not just all there is to it.

He doesn't force situations in which he is likely not to have an advantage. He patiently waits for his preferred - ideal spacing situation to arise, and concentrates on avoiding the opponent's offense - he looks for very specific openings and doesn't try to force his way in very often at all.

He keeps things very VERY simple, along with consistently excellent execution.
 
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Baby_Sneak

Smash Champion
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
2,029
Location
Middletown, Ohio
NNID
sneak_diss
i keep losing to this rob player any advice?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkNkAfIp6s8&t=
You play like you’re scared of anything he does.

That early spike is because he knows when you Up-b, you need to mix up your recovery more.

You shield a lot and use Fair too much, and your edgegusrding is too one-dimensional. You jumped towards him for an enternity, letting him know you’re going for a Bair, which he rightfully air dodged and Uaired you. And s lot of times you mis-spaced your attacks.

My advice: “if you can’t beat’em, join’em.”

Simply put, play ROB for a few weeks on for glory, anther’s ladder and on discord, so you can understand how he functions and what his ranges are. You just lack understanding of his strengths and weaknesses and the fine details that lead to his demise.
 
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