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Meta Hero and Banjo-Kazooie Speculah

Ziodyne 21

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I know this is not exactly the place for this. But "The Heroes" from Dragon Quest and Banjo-Kazooie were both officially announced in the Nintendo E3 Direct

What are some of the people on here's thoughts
 
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DelugeFGC

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Kind of hard to say anything until we actually get the characters. Banjo looks exactly how I'd imagine he'd play if he made it into Smash, Erdrick I'm very 'meh' on because it's yet another sword character in a roster full of them. I'm also not a big DQ fan, so I'm likely biased there.

Still, until they're playable and we've had some time with them, thoughts are pure conjecture.
 

ARISTOS

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I know this is not exactly the place for this. But "The Heroes" from Dragon Quest and Banjo-Kazooie were both officially announced in the Nintendo E3 Direct

What are some of the people on here's thoughts
I'm more interested in The Hero, as he seems to be very magic based, with the traditional Thunder/Fire spell + others that cost Mana. No idea how the character will play out in the long run though.

Banjo seems kinda goofy in general but seems to have a super armor attack in side-special?
 

DelugeFGC

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Erdrick does indeed look interesting now that I caught his gameplay footage. I could actually see myself considering maining a character like that, ignore my above post, they look like the most unique character I've seen in this game.
 

NuzTheMonkey

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I..... dammit you guys really spoiled Erdrick and Banjo. I was just on the thread catching up and ready to watch E3 once I got home.... feels bad.

Whatever, that’s still so exciting!

Having seen those trailers, Erdrick certainly looks very unique. But also a bit ridiculous...... one of those settings literally blocked any projectile, that must be a nightmare for Belmont’s, and Links.


And holy, Banjo slams Kazooie on people for his Smash attacks.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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I'm more interested in The Hero, as he seems to be very magic based, with the traditional Thunder/Fire spell + others that cost Mana. No idea how the character will play out in the long run though.

Banjo seems kinda goofy in general but seems to have a super armor attack in side-special?
Wonderwing might be completely invincible since that's literally its purpose in the games.

I couldn't get a good read on either of their movesets, though. Too much stuff going on. Plus trailers are always designed to portray the character in the best possible light so any drawbacks to them are still unknown yadda yadda.

EDIT: A separate thread for newcomer discussion and theorycrafting might be a good idea.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Dragon Quest is insanely popular in Japan and Banjo-Kazooie is really popular with western audiences. I say that the two regions got the best of both worlds.

Erdrick plays a really interesting style to other sword characters, using RPG mechanics to his arsenal to boost his stats (it even has a kamikaze special move lol). Banjo-Kazooie plays in a way we pretty much all expected. The egg projectile looks somewhat annoying to deal with but we will get more details in the future. The website hasn't updated yet, so we will have to wait and see about more info about both of them (official render, more moves, etc.).
 

Ziodyne 21

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For those familiar with DQ lore there is a reason why they went with the name Hero instead of Erdrick. It looks like the playable skins are the main Heroes from DQ 3, 4, 8, and 11. I dont want to go into spoilers, but not all of them were called Erdrick in their respective games
 
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Justin Allen Goldschmidt

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Did they all have the exact same movesets in the trailer? It looked to me like the DQXI dude had a different moveset compared to the other ones.
 

The_Bookworm

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The website isn't updating for me, so here are their official renders from the Smash Bros twitter account. Here they are:

Luminary (DQXI)
1560274648974.png


Erdrick (DQIII)
1560274674477.png


Male Hero (DQIV)
1560274746319.png


Hero (DQVIII)
1560274720103.png


Banjo & Kazooie
1560274771805.png

Did they all have the exact same movesets in the trailer? It looked to me like the DQXI dude had a different moveset compared to the other ones.
They are his alternative skins, so yes. They probably didn't show them using the same moves.
 
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blackghost

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its another east and west character release. its a good way to do it for a game as large as smash.
can't say i'm overly excited for either but these are good choices.

never forget people said slime should be a character in pre-release THANKFULLY that didnt happen.
 

The_Bookworm

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I am simply hoping that they don't give Hero's stage the two music pieces treatment poor Cloud got.
This is something Banjo-Kazooie doesn't have to worry about at all, but Dragon Quest is Square Enix property.

Speaking of music, the website just updated the music to show us the new Spiral Mountain remix that showed up in the trailer. Sounding crispy.
 

G. Stache

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As someone who is a low key huge fan of Dragon Quest, you don’t know how hype I am for this dlc. The character from the trailer looks so cool and I am fully willing to co main him. I was already super cool with the roster we had already but I’m so happy that I got someone that I didn’t even know I needed. The character looks very interesting and the spell mechanic that was briefly showed looks very cool to me. I cannot wait to get my hands on this character and I’m confident that the dev team will do justice for the character.
 
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Thinkaman

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Hero seems to be very resource focused, with an MP bar and 4 sets of special moves? (Which entails a selection/casting animation) From what little we saw he looks somewhere between Robin and Toon Link, which is a weird/interesting position. Wonder how/if he gets MP back. (Robin style cooldown-upon-depletion?)

They've been really different since Lucas was first included. They've never really been that similar. They have similar up-bs, and variant down-bs, everything else about them is functionally completely different.
Yeah--they even have diametrically opposing goals, approach preferences, ect. Honestly, the thing they have most in common is just their double jump.


In Melee, the litnus test to instantly see if someone had no idea what they were talking about was asking if they thought Roy was better than Marth.

In Brawl, the litnus test was asking if they thought Lucas was a clone of Ness.
 

The_Bookworm

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Apparently all of the alternate skins for Hero has been revealed (I didn't know touching the character on the website page about them changes the skins lol). Here is the full set:

1560277245137.png1560277252414.png1560277257398.png1560277263098.png
1560277270460.png1560277277182.png1560277283234.png1560277289331.png

Tapping on the portraits will bring you to a larger version of the image. I have no idea about the references to the 4 alt skins (not well versed in DQ lore at all), but I'm sure it references a thing or two.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Did they all have the exact same movesets in the trailer? It looked to me like the DQXI dude had a different moveset compared to the other ones.
Apparently all of the alternate skins for Hero has been revealed (I didn't know touching character on the website page about them changes the skins lol). Here is the full set:

View attachment 227388View attachment 227389View attachment 227390View attachment 227391
View attachment 227392View attachment 227393View attachment 227394View attachment 227395

Tapping on the portraits will bring you to a larger version of the image. I have no idea about the references to the 4 alt skins (not well versed in DQ lore at all), but I'm sure it references a thing or two.

The alt colour skins all are references to other DQ characters

Luminary is based of Angelo from DQVIII
Erdrick is based of the DQV Hero
DQ VI Hero looks like the original DQI hero, or possibly a DQIII Cleric class
DQ VIII Hero is based of Terry from DQ VI
 
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**Gilgamesh**

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The MP mechanic came be very interesting. I was already speculating if they ever added another FF/RPG character for them to use MP. Also The DLC characters are now on the official smash site. Also DQ VIII Hero is named Eight.
So you have Erdrick, Luminary, and Eight. Idk about the other though.
 
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ILOVESMASH

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In Melee, the litnus test to instantly see if someone had no idea what they were talking about was asking if they thought Roy was better than Marth.
This is the metric I've been using for years to see if my opponent is well-versed or not in the art of Melee.

Obviously the dude w/ Fire, a OHKO move, and bigger damage is gonna be trouncing some pretty boy any day of the week. Yet people insist otherwise. And are promptly slain.

They'll see... one day.....

"Shin no tatakai wa korekara da."
 

ParanoidDrone

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Hero's menu selection for their spells is what worries me most about them. I know we have Shulk and his dial thing, but this seems a step beyond that and it looks...kind of clunky? Like, I'm trying to imagine selecting the right up special on the fly for optimal recovery and my mind just rebels a bit.

The thing that amused me the most about Melee back in the day (when I didn't even know the comp scene existed) was that Peach absolutely slapped. (In more ways than one, come to think of it.)
 
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Heracr055

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Looking down on the inclusion of a Dragon Quest character just because they have a sword is a very poor way to look at inclusions.

I'm actually very excited for what their resource management will bring to the table
 

Lacrimosa

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Is he able to move around with the counter?
Ehhh, really :/ ?

E: Actually, nwm. Looks like I remembered the trailer wrong.
But he can put an opponent to sleep?
 
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Rizen

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I'm getting Robin vibes from the Heroes. Banjo looks like he has good tools but is slow.

:ultken: seems to be back to SSB4 Ryu levels. He might struggle with zoners but has a rediculous CQC combo game. Here's some high level footage of him vs Joker.

After the buffs is Ken still better than Ryu or is it preferential?
 

blackghost

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i need to retract my previous statement i like hero. is the kind of character i like: complex, high reward, and rewards matchup knowledge and exploiting habbits.

the mana use on spells is cool. overall looks like robin plus link. even shares some animations with both.
 

The_Bookworm

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The MP mechanic came be very interesting. I was already speculating if they ever added another FF/RPG character for them to use MP. Also The DLC characters are now on the official smash site. Also DQ VIII Hero is named Eight.
So you have Erdrick, Luminary, and Eight. Idk about the other though.
According to the SmashWiki, the DQIV Hero is named "Solo". In other words:

DQXI Hero is "Irebun" (apparently the Luminary has a canon name).
DQIII Hero is "Erdrick".
DQIV Hero is "Solo".
DQVIII Hero is "Eight".
 
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boysilver400

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The Heroes seem like really precise characters based on their moveset changing. It seems like Monando arts but bumped up to eleven., so I'm pretty excited to see how Kirby's copying them comes into play. Any predictions on how the moveset changing will work competitively?
 

ParanoidDrone

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The Heroes seem like really precise characters based on their moveset changing. It seems like Monando arts but bumped up to eleven., so I'm pretty excited to see how Kirby's copying them comes into play. Any predictions on how the moveset changing will work competitively?
It looked to me like it was more choose-a-special than change-a-moveset.
 

NairWizard

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I play swordies. By mid-S4 I had won a tournament set with at least one of each of the sword users, including Link, Ike, and Robin. In Ultimate I'm proficient with any character who wields a sword. I know the theory behind them, I know how to play them and how to beat them, and I know why we group them together as swordies.

Trust me when I say that DQ Hero is not a swordie.

Oh sure, he has a sword. And he has sword normals, most of which seem to be based on Link.

But he also has up to 16 specials.

16. Specials.

Stop for a moment and consider how many that is.

Your typical character has 3 tilts, a jab, a dash attack, 4 aerials, and 3 smashes. That's 12 normals. 13 if you count rapid jab separately from gentleman jab.

This character potentially has more specials than most characters have normals. We've never had a character like this before.

Ryu and Ken have an extra 4-5 normals, but all of them are close- to close-mid-range options (d-smash is a borderline midrange poke). And having more normals isn't the same as having lots of specials (though Ryu gets a taste of this with his Hadoken variants).

Shulk's arts give him access to different spacings/timings for his aerials, and make some of his specials/normals more or less effective in certain situations, but they don't change core move functions (up-b out of shield is the same hitbox and speed regardless of which art you're in, for example).

People are comparing to Robin? Please. Robin has 4-7 specials; 7 if you consider the different variations of Thunder/Elthunder/Arcthunder/Thoron to be distinct moves (which they are, but do remember that they are mutually exclusive options at any given point in time--you can't use Elthunder if you've got Arcthunder stored) and 19-20 normals. Robin is still a swordie at heart. She has some great zoning tools that are worth spamming, but Levin sword is integral to her kit.

Leaving out how likely each move is to be used/assuming an even distribution, Robin is about 25% mage, and 75% swordie.

The DQ Hero is almost 60% mage. This is the most magical a character we've ever had--we've had characters with mage aesthetics, like Zelda, but they were still not mages functionally.

This isn't a swordie. This is a mage. And that is hype.
 
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Nobie

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I'm very excited for the DQ Hero. I'm interested in seeing the strengths and weaknesses of each spell.

I can't tell if Banjo and Kazooie are supposed to be a stance character, or if they're closer to how Duck Hunt works.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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I'm very excited for the DQ Hero. I'm interested in seeing the strengths and weaknesses of each spell.

I can't get it Banjo and Kazooie are supposed to be a stance character, or if they're closer to how Duck Hunt works.

Yeah kinda like Duckhunt. Banjo is the main controllable body while Kazooie pops out for various moves, and for up-b recovery of course. The really only gimmick part of them looks to be the "invinciblity" wonderwing move. It seems to run on a sort of meter judging by the gold-feather symbols that appared over them in the footage.
It looks like be a powerful move, but it may require time recharge after prolonged use
 
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The_Bookworm

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R.I.P. Competitive Character Thread lol
It does make sense to move these speculation posts to this fresh new thread. Wonder where we are going to post competitive discussion posts now. : p

Anyways...
The really only gimmick part of them looks to be the "invinciblity" wonderwing move. It seems to run on a sort of meter judging by the gold-feather symbols that appared over them in the footage.
It looks like be a powerful move, but it may require time recharge after prolonged use
I think Banjo & Kazooie's overall mechanic may be collecting certain items as ammo. There is the golden feathers for the charge move, but also the eggs and grenades could also be a type of projectile the duo has to collect in the course of the fight. It would make sense to their source material as well.

Of course, this is merely mindless speculation, but someone in a video pointed out this possibility and I want to share it.
 
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meleebrawler

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R.I.P. Competitive Character Thread lol
It does make sense to move these speculation posts to this fresh new thread. Wonder where we are going to post competitive discussion posts now. : p

Anyways...

I think Banjo & Kazooie's overall mechanic may be collecting certain items as ammo. There is the golden feathers for the charge move, but also the eggs and grenades could also be a type of projectile the duo has to collect in the course of the fight. It would make sense to their source material as well.

Of course, this is merely mindless speculation, but someone in a video pointed out this possibility and I want to share it.
Pretty sure we would have seen something like that in the trailer if it was that important. Even without a detailed breakdown like Joker they took the time to point out Hero's unique menu and MP. Banjo seems like a fairly straightforward bruiser with below average mobility that uses his zoning tools to open up his enemy to his hard hits.
 

The_Bookworm

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Pretty sure we would have seen something like that in the trailer if it was that important. Even without a detailed breakdown like Joker they took the time to point out Hero's unique menu and MP. Banjo seems like a fairly straightforward bruiser with below average mobility that uses his zoning tools to open up his enemy to his hard hits.
Banjo is still in an early development state (emphasis on a Fall 2019 release) and the trailers only really gloss over some of the things the characters can do.

However, it is very possible that you are right and that Banjo is a straightforward bruiser/zoning character.
 

Nidtendofreak

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I kinda Banjo is as straight forwards as he looks so far, with at most limited ammo managing. Not a fan of overly complicated characters, and characters with higher amounts of input requirements per minute when playing competitively kill my arthritis. Would be nice to have a more straight forwards character. Not every DLC character needs to be trying to do bullet loops or managing 16 special moves: a simpler character like Ike or Bowser or Lucina style is perfectly fine as well.
 

ParanoidDrone

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Yeah kinda like Duckhunt. Banjo is the main controllable body while Kazooie pops out for various moves, and for up-b recovery of course. The really only gimmick part of them looks to be the "invinciblity" wonderwing move. It seems to run on a sort of meter judging by the gold-feather symbols that appared over them in the footage.
It looks like be a powerful move, but it may require time recharge after prolonged use
It seemed to me that Wonderwing has 5 charges, and each use consumes one charge. It was unclear from the footage if there's a way to regenerate charges short of dying and respawning; I find myself hoping there is, because otherwise Banjo would be limited to no more than 5 uses of the move per stock, which seems...weird. No other character has their moves limited quite so strictly, not even Robin.
 

Tri Knight

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Banjo was definitely well deserved. Hero was a shocker to me but his kit looks real good.
 

Spinosaurus

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If Hero works the way I think they do, Hero mains are about to turn into turn based RPG speedrunners with all the fast menuing they're gonna have to do. Kinda fitting.

Banjo seems pretty straight forward and there isn't a whole lot to unpack and talk about compared to Hero, but that's alright. Kinda hope he actually stays that way and there isn't some gimmick that wasn't so apparent with him.
 

Untouch

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Hero is really interesting.
Is the menu random? I thought with Pysche Up and Oomph (both raise attack in DQ) this would be a Down B menu, but I can't imagine Kaclang being on anything but Down B too, and it's not there.

Sizzle is probably the fireball we see at the start.
Pysche Up probably works like Incineroar's revenge, that's how it works in the game.
Oomph likely increases damage like the Smash monado art.

We see two different recoveries too.
We also see a healing spell of some sort in the screenshots, unless he's in a healing field (I don't see it.)
 
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meleebrawler

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Banjo is still in an early development state (emphasis on a Fall 2019 release) and the trailers only really gloss over some of the things the characters can do.

However, it is very possible that you are right and that Banjo is a straightforward bruiser/zoning character.
Was there anything major about Piranha Plant that was not covered in his trailer? Having gameplay to show tells me they know how they want the character to work, and are just bug-testing, balancing, stat and move tweaking.

Given their recovery seems to have... noticeable issues if they go low and their not so great looking airspeed, I expect them to be at least somewhat heavy. Beware semi-spikes.

It seemed to me that Wonderwing has 5 charges, and each use consumes one charge. It was unclear from the footage if there's a way to regenerate charges short of dying and respawning; I find myself hoping there is, because otherwise Banjo would be limited to no more than 5 uses of the move per stock, which seems...weird. No other character has their moves limited quite so strictly, not even Robin.
Will probably depend on how much utility they give the move. It already travels really far with decent startup considering that, and if they're truly invulnerable during the move... then their high recovery is almost completely uncontestable (and that's before getting into non-helpless up b mixups), and it'll be one of the best zone-breaking moves in the game, their trump card when egg-shooting and grenades (which can probably be used like Young Link's bombs) isn't enough. That said it's probably still fairly punishable if used recklessly, so chances are it'll almost exclusively be used for recovery in some matchups, in which case it's unlikely they'd actually burn though all five uses before getting KOed. These kinds of moves are best used sparingly on the offence anyway, limited use or no.
 
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NotLiquid

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Banjo's Talon Trot is kinda weird. Based on the trailer footage, that isn't a dash, he breaks into it from his dash in the opening, so it's presumably his SideB. Is that going to have any utility outside of "faster run"?

Egg is most likely going to work pretty much like Joker's gun; fire once and then you're either going to be able to hold back to lay a grenade, or hold forward to go into Breegull Blaster. Up-B is the bounce pad, while Down B is the Wonderwing.

Banjo seems well rounded, though his side Smash gives me some major Inkling FSmash vibes in terms of it animating the full way through. I'm guessing that his down air is going to work like Toon Link's/Game & Watch's.
 
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