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Help with Peach and Puff Matchup?
- Thread starter Grapist
- Start date
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Peach - Bair, needles, grab. Fair and f-tilt are also pretty good. Try to outspace or bait her combo break efforts so you can do big damage (shield grabbing the nair, beating her nair with bair, etc). Combo with up air whenever possible.
Puff - Bair, needles, fair. Dash attack and down smash are also pretty good. Don't try to shield grab aerials, don't try to grab her duck. Get on a platform (or below one) and try to lure her into the needle spray range at low percents so you can needle onto the platform > run off fair > another move to build damage quickly. D-tilt > up air is a decent way to kill her.
Puff - Bair, needles, fair. Dash attack and down smash are also pretty good. Don't try to shield grab aerials, don't try to grab her duck. Get on a platform (or below one) and try to lure her into the needle spray range at low percents so you can needle onto the platform > run off fair > another move to build damage quickly. D-tilt > up air is a decent way to kill her.
With some Peach's, you can dthrow to a rising fair, and then a falling falling. L-cancel that, and boost grab, down throw, fair or uair. Which ever is better in the situation.
Really one of the better things you can do, is just space yourself really well and throw needles to rack up damage.
With Puff, throw needles, nairs, dthrow to fair or uair. Whichever is opportune.
Best offense with a Puff is a good defense. Don't get rested at all costs, which is easier said then done.
Really one of the better things you can do, is just space yourself really well and throw needles to rack up damage.
With Puff, throw needles, nairs, dthrow to fair or uair. Whichever is opportune.
Best offense with a Puff is a good defense. Don't get rested at all costs, which is easier said then done.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
The Peach advice is okay and the combo actually comes up every now and then.
The Puff advice is bad.
The Puff advice is bad.
I actually think the best way to play vs puff is to play a strong offensive game that abuses Sheik's crouch and to push her into the corner. Jigglypuff has too much control otherwise I think, and stray hits will put you off stage easily. Which sucks.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Yeah there's merit to pushing Puff into the corner. Although I don't really view it as offense because you're not really moving forward much in each increment... it's very gradual. Anyway, you have some effective ways to do it. Against high anything you just bair. Most manner of SHs you can just space fair (or f-tilt & bair sometimes but fair is usually the go-to here), but SH bair beats this so if she uses mostly SH bairs then back up and charge a few needles. Air needles into whatever, then push her away. Charge your needles and advance a bit, or just hold your footing. Use the next appropriate defense, and take more space. If you call a SH bair you can also go over it with some kind of jump and then maybe get a 2-step or 3-piece combo (something like... nair > dash attack, or nair > f-tilt > whatever, fair > fair, etc).
Eventually she runs out of stage to retreat to and then... you keep doing that kind of push thing anyway because people get antsy when they have poor footing for a while (and you want Puff to get antsy 'cuz, ultimately, she doesn't have many options and her high-roller, gambling 'mixups' can be covered en mass by some pretty basic shield & defensive movement strats). And even if they don't get antsy, it's not like there's a disadvantage to keeping her at the edge. Sheik benefits a ton from that style of positioning inherently vs Puff. There's a lot of good things about it - not being susceptible to spontaneous death by d-throw (into platform tech chase rest or just d-throw rest if you DI incorrectly for some inexplicable reason) or b-throw gimp are really good things.
edit:
Kaffei, I think that combo works better on Samus because of her greater floatiness and weight (or something like that). Also, I thought the M2K combo on Peach was d-throw > regrab or up tilt > fair or uair > dash dance grab the dumb combo break nair that many of them still do > more d-throw > uair or f-tilt (or fair if it can put her offstage) > fair or bair (bair usually to cover free-fall options) > some edgeguard with fair > stock. I swear I've seen him land that kind of sequence on just about every Peach but Armada. Often numerous times in a match.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
Oh, really? Next time I play a Samus I'll try it.
Yeah now that you mention it he does do that a lot
I've also seen him do like a nair to fair o_O Never thought that would work before
Also Armada too good
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Nair to Fair is classic vs Peach. It's how you **** her for trying to use turnips to regain footing when she's pinned at the edge. Nair through the turnip, then combo to fair.
It also works out of throw randomly because everything combos out of throw sometimes with Sheik. Sheik can cheat and outspace Peach's nair with fair though so even when it "shouldn't" work it sometimes does anyway. Hooray for Sheik!
I'm gonna explain the combo a bit more 'cuz I feel like it.
D-throw > Nair > Fair is a basic, yet somewhat situational combo string for pushing Peach offstage into a gimp or edgeguard setup. It's generally used around like 30% (you hit the hard nair, then fast fall l-cancel ASAP), sometimes a bit higher (into maybe late 40s, early 50s? I forget the range of its usefulness). You use Nair the first time 'cuz it hits at a higher trajectory than Fair would. If you tried to do two Fairs, the lower trajectory would probably wreck the combo's chance of success (unless they had epic bad DI - by using nair first, this one can succeed if they simply have slightly off DI, as is the nature of most horizontal air combos with Sheik). You also get like 2-3% more this way which is neat (no stale moves + Nair does more than Fair).
In mid-stage, it's not a bad play if you think they'll DI in on the Nair because the Fair can put them really close to the ground (at which point they're going to land) so you can follow up with more Sheik spaced aerials or attempt a bait on a sidestep, down smash, shield, etc. and continue comboing. It's pretty good!
Its main competition in terms of combo efficiency is... illegitimate dash attack (which, when successful, is basically the best thing ever but it also should never work but it does sometimes so it's hard to evaluate 'cuz you're banking on a combo defense mistake by them but if it works you get wild and crazy stuff) and stuff involving f-tilt & fair. F-tilt can give you an up air if they DI in on it, which is often better (Peach above Sheik sucks it's like an 8-2 MU). But Nair > Fair is often better than F-tilt > Fair for pushing her offstage (for a bunch of reasons - although f-tilt into fair is a lot easier so if you're lazy nobody will hold it against you; it's not a big loss as far as efficiency goes and cutting corners for consistency is generally acceptable). And if they DI the initial move (Nair / F-tilt) then I feel Nair has a similar chance of being followed up on.
This is kind of a trade secret, but you can often cheat and delay the Nair after d-throw during your jump (if you don't expect them to Nair out of the first move off d-throw, which is a reasonable assumption since d-throw > aerial is so guaranteed it hurts) and then the Fair combos more easily. You might even get like... a dash attack depending on how you do the Nair (if you maximize speed & lag it's possible - requires some FF proficiency though).
In summary, Nair is kind of neat in combos vs Peach at specific percent ranges.
It also works out of throw randomly because everything combos out of throw sometimes with Sheik. Sheik can cheat and outspace Peach's nair with fair though so even when it "shouldn't" work it sometimes does anyway. Hooray for Sheik!
I'm gonna explain the combo a bit more 'cuz I feel like it.
D-throw > Nair > Fair is a basic, yet somewhat situational combo string for pushing Peach offstage into a gimp or edgeguard setup. It's generally used around like 30% (you hit the hard nair, then fast fall l-cancel ASAP), sometimes a bit higher (into maybe late 40s, early 50s? I forget the range of its usefulness). You use Nair the first time 'cuz it hits at a higher trajectory than Fair would. If you tried to do two Fairs, the lower trajectory would probably wreck the combo's chance of success (unless they had epic bad DI - by using nair first, this one can succeed if they simply have slightly off DI, as is the nature of most horizontal air combos with Sheik). You also get like 2-3% more this way which is neat (no stale moves + Nair does more than Fair).
In mid-stage, it's not a bad play if you think they'll DI in on the Nair because the Fair can put them really close to the ground (at which point they're going to land) so you can follow up with more Sheik spaced aerials or attempt a bait on a sidestep, down smash, shield, etc. and continue comboing. It's pretty good!
Its main competition in terms of combo efficiency is... illegitimate dash attack (which, when successful, is basically the best thing ever but it also should never work but it does sometimes so it's hard to evaluate 'cuz you're banking on a combo defense mistake by them but if it works you get wild and crazy stuff) and stuff involving f-tilt & fair. F-tilt can give you an up air if they DI in on it, which is often better (Peach above Sheik sucks it's like an 8-2 MU). But Nair > Fair is often better than F-tilt > Fair for pushing her offstage (for a bunch of reasons - although f-tilt into fair is a lot easier so if you're lazy nobody will hold it against you; it's not a big loss as far as efficiency goes and cutting corners for consistency is generally acceptable). And if they DI the initial move (Nair / F-tilt) then I feel Nair has a similar chance of being followed up on.
This is kind of a trade secret, but you can often cheat and delay the Nair after d-throw during your jump (if you don't expect them to Nair out of the first move off d-throw, which is a reasonable assumption since d-throw > aerial is so guaranteed it hurts) and then the Fair combos more easily. You might even get like... a dash attack depending on how you do the Nair (if you maximize speed & lag it's possible - requires some FF proficiency though).
In summary, Nair is kind of neat in combos vs Peach at specific percent ranges.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I've been doing nair through the turnip since like 2008.
I'm sure others did it before me.
It's good though. It's shamelessly stolen from McCloud but he doesn't have our fair to follow up on it.
I'm sure others did it before me.
It's good though. It's shamelessly stolen from McCloud but he doesn't have our fair to follow up on it.
Wake
Smash Master
Oh god... class is in session, and the Sheiks they be learnin.
Doser
Smash Ace
We need more videos of KirbyKaze.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
No you don't.
Doser
Smash Ace
You're not my real dad, you can't tell me what to do.