Help with neutral

Merfect

Learn your true self
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Jan 5, 2013
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Merfectman
#1
I'm new to Zelda, I really want to play her in Ultimate, but I'm losing almost every game with her. Mostly due to getting outplayed in the neutral, but I also have a hard time landing kill moves at times. The only tool I can seem to understand for neutral is Phantom, but once the opponent knows to jump over it I get kinda screwed. It feels like almost anything I do is high commitment and/or can be beaten out by other characters easily. Idk I'm just having a really rough time and I really want to continue playing this character. Any and all tips would be appreciated. If there is a Zelda Discord out there I would like to join. I'm kinda desperate for some feedback.
 
Joined
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#2
I'm still adjusting to this Zelda but dont wanna leave you hanging sis.

Well just camping out with phantom is not enough at a distance you have to plan what you are going to do when they react to phantom. Like if you're opponent is always jumping over him depending on how far you should be able to intercept them with a nair or Uair.

Are you closing in and using your low commitment combo starters like jab and Utilt? Those are pretty fast and at low percent she can still dtilt>dash grab.

Lately if I'm not landing a kick I'm still using usmash or fsmash for kills you just have to be patient since her smashes are still high commitment. And uthrow kills now too so a nice uthrow at high percent should also close out stocks.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 11, 2018
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410
#3
I'm still adjusting to this Zelda but dont wanna leave you hanging sis.

Well just camping out with phantom is not enough at a distance you have to plan what you are going to do when they react to phantom. Like if you're opponent is always jumping over him depending on how far you should be able to intercept them with a nair or Uair.

Are you closing in and using your low commitment combo starters like jab and Utilt? Those are pretty fast and at low percent she can still dtilt>dash grab.

Lately if I'm not landing a kick I'm still using usmash or fsmash for kills you just have to be patient since her smashes are still high commitment. And uthrow kills now too so a nice uthrow at high percent should also close out stocks.
This post pretty much sums it up. Don't underestimate Din's Fire and Farore's Wind as punish and follow up tools. They're pretty good now. Try knocking your opponents off stage as much as possible. Zelda's pretty good at edgeguarding. Try and manipulate your opponent into your attacks rather than throw them out trying to beat your opponent's. Don't worry about struggling, she's not very straightforward or easy. Experiment a lot with different strategies against different characters.
 

Merfect

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Merfectman
#4
Thank you so much
I’m more used to sword characters where I can just kinda throw out disjoints in neutral. I haven’t been using jab or utilt that much for neutral, I’ll try using them more. I try using dtilt sometimes but it always has less range than I expect . I’ll keep trying though. I appreciate the support!
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
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410
#5
Thank you so much
I’m more used to sword characters where I can just kinda throw out disjoints in neutral. I haven’t been using jab or utilt that much for neutral, I’ll try using them more. I try using dtilt sometimes but it always has less range than I expect . I’ll keep trying though. I appreciate the support!
Yeah I understand the feeling as I played a lot of FE characters in 4. You'll be on the receiving end of those swords this time, so you're going to need a bit of a mentality shift. If it helps try using the spacing you used to play sword characters and apply that to both defense and the Phantom. Space just outside the range of the swords hitbox the way you would try to hit people with the sword, if that makes sense. Treat the Phantom like Corrin's lance in terms of manipulating them into the hitbox as well as forcing options and edgeguarding. It's not completely the same but the general idea is.
 
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#6
Thank you so much
I’m more used to sword characters where I can just kinda throw out disjoints in neutral. I haven’t been using jab or utilt that much for neutral, I’ll try using them more. I try using dtilt sometimes but it always has less range than I expect . I’ll keep trying though. I appreciate the support!
I dont know her current range differences from smash 4 but I've always felt Zelda spaces like a swordsman when you really are trying to out poke a ***** lol.

Ftilt and fsmash to me are like magical sword attacks and despite utilt being faster it's still a tad slower than say a Mario utilt. Like back in brawl I learned how to aim kicks by playing marth as it was a similar to tipper range

Dtilt lost its combo power which I have to now unlearn after 10 years and apply to peach, but it's a nice check hit that still has some follow ups at low percent....kinda like marths lol

[
Treat the Phantom like Corrin's lance in terms of manipulating them into the hitbox as well as forcing options and edgeguarding. It's not completely the same but the general idea is.
*agrees but also rants about Corn lance from last smash*
 
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Skamhutt

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#7
Hello Merfect,

you have been helped already, allow me to throw in my hat still.

First I recommend, if you have not already done so, to experiment with your character of choice in the training mode to see what works and what does not, to get familiar with the range of attacks, their exact effects, their starting time and cool-down and whatnot. In Smash Ultimate we even got the nice tool to see how far any given opponent will fly when hit with a specific attack. I find that quite useful.
Even if you find silly stuff that you think will never work in a real match, practice it still and you will find yourself equipped very well for pretty much every situation, how uncommon it may be.
You could try and practice things until you can do them 10 times in a row without fault, if you like. That may help to let certain techniques sink in.
There you can try things like DTilt > Dash-Grab > D-Throw > U-Tilt > NAir > Farores Wind for something around 46 % (do not expect to land something like that in a real match, but you may try of course and who knows what might happen... some people still try to hit Ganondorf with simple melee attacks while he is charging his Warlock Punch and many people blindly run into someones fully charged smash attacks...).

Please take into consideration however, that I'm not a pro at any smash game and that results may of course vary from person to person. Still, I think it is never wrong to practice :)

As for the gameplay itself, I can only speak for myself, but I find it very helpful to approach enemies with NAir, Dash-Attacks or even grabs. Of course the exact strategy has to be adapted from opponent to opponent, I always try to use the whole moveset of a character.
The Phantom I only use for edgeguards and mix-ups. Sometimes it may prove useful to be used more commonly in neutral, but I personally dislike attacks that take long and are easily avoided. The Phantom does take quite some time (unless you send it to charge with a fist) and is easily avoided as well (unless your opponent is somehow disabled or off-stage).
As edgeguard I find the Phantom very useful.
Also your Up-B (Farores Wind) might be used in the neutral game and surprise your opponent and maybe even hit a KO.

Please also do not forget your F-Tilt. It is rather powerful :)

With lots of practice you will find your personal playstyle and be more succesful.
I run into lots of Zelda players online (I personally perceive Zelda as the second most played character right now, the most played being Mario [at least in my experience]) and many just spam blindly the same moves over and over and over again without improving results (most of the time they spam the Phantom and smash attacks). Please do not be that kind of player. Zelda is rather versatile, try and use everything she has in store :)

Best regards
 

MultipLe

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#8
Zelda has very imposing threat ranges, like peach in melee. You have an amazing disjointed jab, naryu's love for a "get off me" button, her godly dash attack and ftilt for horizontal footsies, and most importantly: Phantom, which allows you to make a bet on time.

If you think they won't instantly be on the ball to punish your phantom, use it and build your giant zone control off it.
If you think they'll try to stop you beforehand just abuse your good footsies normals and wall them with multihitting disjoints.

For help killing, dash attack leads to good edge gaurd situations, grab leads to down throw bair up until very high percent, and dair leads to up air true vs any grounded opponent at higher percents.
If they just play run away from you, or try to camp to stall out their stock at high percent, you have lots of tools to gain your turn and nullify projectiles, even a full screen punisher in up b(also good for kills out of shield).
 

Merfect

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Merfectman
#9
I did a bunch of matches today and I've been doing a lot better. Her aerials are more useful than I thought, as are her tilts. I kept trying to set up scenarios for me to hit landing nairs into follow-ups and it really paid off. I also made sure to practice the spacing extra hard on her fair and bair and I'm feeling a bit more confident with them. I challenged myself to not use Phantom as much as well except for specific scenarios like ledge trapping and pressuring offstage. It's still useful in neutral on occasion, but shouldn't be the go to move. Also been trying to be less predictable with Farore's, I kept relying on it too much to get past opponents when I'm at the ledge. I'm getting punished a lot less as a result. I'm gonna keep at it this week. I really appreciate the feedback from everyone. <3
 

Yangguizi

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#11
I love playing Zelda but I honestly think you are challenging yourself to be much better than your opponent in the neutral by playing her. It’s an uphill battle. She’s got a quirky design with the lightning kicks instead of conventional aerials.
This threads been helpful for me too folks. Thanks.
 
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#12
I love playing Zelda but I honestly think you are challenging yourself to be much better than your opponent in the neutral by playing her. It’s an uphill battle. She’s got a quirky design with the lightning kicks instead of conventional aerials.
This threads been helpful for me too folks. Thanks.
I cannot agree more. If she had been given a spacing aerial in the place of one of her kicks then I think that the character would be in the conversation more than she is.
 

Yangguizi

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#13
I cannot agree more. If she had been given a spacing aerial in the place of one of her kicks then I think that the character would be in the conversation more than she is.
I agree that she would be better with a spacing aerial but I also feel that the lightning kicks define her play style. I’ve been speculating that she would be pretty much perfect if love popes opponents up and allowed for a follow up. I like love as a defensive mixup but it presently dosnt even get you as much as a counter.
 
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#14
I agree that she would be better with a spacing aerial but I also feel that the lightning kicks define her play style. I’ve been speculating that she would be pretty much perfect if love popes opponents up and allowed for a follow up. I like love as a defensive mixup but it presently dosnt even get you as much as a counter.
I think that they define her playstyle too strongly, but this is probably a discussion that should be held in a different thread.
 
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