Help w/ Marth (Analysis)

[SSBM Tao]

Hello! I'm a 14 year old player from Chicago, IL and I would like some help analyzing my Marth video against Oro?! I'm not very experienced in the Shiek matchup, and I know what I did wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2RodXsRBow



I should have Up-threw instead of F-threw, and my edgegaurding was extremely flawed because I didn't roll of the ledge. Any help with neutral would probably be the most helpful, but any suggestions or discussion will help.
Thanks in advanced!

 

[dedDAD]

Hey man I made an account just to post about this. WALL OF TEXT INBOUND

Let me start by saying your movement and tech is impressive - I know it, you know it, everybody knows it.
Here's the flipside: you are fourteen and you play like it. Your opponent recognized it. He made faces as you died to ways that newer players wouldn't have. I wouldn't advise regrabbing the ledge like that.

2:20 links to your death at 4:00. Smash attacks simply are too punishable; exploit your movement more.
2:20 was a surprisingly good move but the followup shows weakness. Use FAIR almost exclusively. Nair has very few uses but approaching is NOT one of them. ex: 4:40 nairs got you punished. I know it's situational, but 2:40 shows shorthop fair wreckage.

3:40 sword dash first, save the double jump for when you need it.

I only watched to 5:20 because it's late, but Marth should have a HUGE advantage on a small stage with platforms

Advice:

• Control the center
• ......Allows you to unleash shorthop fair
• ......Attack after you move more
• Don't rely smash
• Focus on Aerial combat
• ......Disjointed hitbox, tip, and marths long arms mean you are a dominant force
• .......Fair, Up tilt, and even Spike give me more higher dps than when im on the ground
• Exploit your amazing movement
• .......long dash forward, short dash back, then smash or dash and poke. Either M2K or Mango does this a lot
• I didn't see any Ken Combos...?
• .......Shorthop fair hop spike. Can KO at 40
• 5:15 Upair or uptilt or w/e would have kept the combo going
• Survival DPI 5:20. Were you facing up left here?

P.S Sorry for the format, for some reason you can't indent.
You have a huge foundation. Study and you will be unstoppable!

 

[SSBM Tao]

Hey man I made an account just to post about this. WALL OF TEXT INBOUND

Let me start by saying your movement and tech is impressive - I know it, you know it, everybody knows it.
Here's the flipside: you are fourteen and you play like it. Your opponent recognized it. He made faces as you died to ways that newer players wouldn't have. I wouldn't advise regrabbing the ledge like that.

2:20 links to your death at 4:00. Smash attacks simply are too punishable; exploit your movement more.
2:20 was a surprisingly good move but the followup shows weakness. Use FAIR almost exclusively. Nair has very few uses but approaching is NOT one of them. ex: 4:40 nairs got you punished. I know it's situational, but 2:40 shows shorthop fair wreckage.

3:40 sword dash first, save the double jump for when you need it.

I only watched to 5:20 because it's late, but Marth should have a HUGE advantage on a small stage with platforms

Advice:

• Control the center
• ......Allows you to unleash shorthop fair
• ......Attack after you move more
• Don't rely smash
• Focus on Aerial combat
• ......Disjointed hitbox, tip, and marths long arms mean you are a dominant force
• .......Fair, Up tilt, and even Spike give me more higher dps than when im on the ground
• Exploit your amazing movement
• .......long dash forward, short dash back, then smash or dash and poke. Either M2K or Mango does this a lot
• I didn't see any Ken Combos...?
• .......Shorthop fair hop spike. Can KO at 40
• 5:15 Upair or uptilt or w/e would have kept the combo going
• Survival DPI 5:20. Were you facing up left here?

P.S Sorry for the format, for some reason you can't indent.
You have a huge foundation. Study and you will be unstoppable!

Thanks for the really helpful insight and suggestions. I would've definitely done a lot better if it wasn't for tourney nerves.
I keep my movement very grounded and I recently tried using fairs to wall out opponents instead of out dash dancing them. I usually don't use f-smashes in neutral, but the nerves got to me. Most of these flaws are already in the process of being changed.

Quick question, when do you decide to commit to jump with marth in neutral? I've always thought that dash dancing was better than walling out shiek in the match up because the "role" of walling out opponents goes to shiek, who is good at shutting down marth's movement in the air.
Thanks again for the help. It is much appreciated.

 

[Raycu]

Thanks for the really helpful insight and suggestions. I would've definitely done a lot better if it wasn't for tourney nerves.
I keep my movement very grounded and I recently tried using fairs to wall out opponents instead of out dash dancing them. I usually don't use f-smashes in neutral, but the nerves got to me. Most of these flaws are already in the process of being changed.

Quick question, when do you decide to commit to jump with marth in neutral? I've always thought that dash dancing was better than walling out shiek in the match up because the "role" of walling out opponents goes to shiek, who is good at shutting down marth's movement in the air.
Thanks again for the help. It is much appreciated.

You really only want to commit if you know that the shiek is going to jump, or they're already in the air. Although shiek is good at walling out, her moves still have less range than marth's and can be punished.

As for how to make openings, you really shouldn't be using fair for that. Countershiek play is all about baiting and getting them to overextend. Dashdance in and out of they're range and be ready to run away and counterattack.

ssbm tutorials has a good video on how to beat shiek. Check it out.

 

[dedDAD]

Thanks for the really helpful insight and suggestions. I would've definitely done a lot better if it wasn't for tourney nerves.
I keep my movement very grounded and I recently tried using fairs to wall out opponents instead of out dash dancing them. I usually don't use f-smashes in neutral, but the nerves got to me. Most of these flaws are already in the process of being changed.

Quick question, when do you decide to commit to jump with marth in neutral? I've always thought that dash dancing was better than walling out shiek in the match up because the "role" of walling out opponents goes to shiek, who is good at shutting down marth's movement in the air.
Thanks again for the help. It is much appreciated.

Skip to 3:25. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gQMkWYBE88

I agree that Shiek games are about patience.

My skill level is a lot lower than yours; I started playing last month and picked up WD, DD, and SHFFL pretty quickly. Have played at 2 tournaments so far.

my thoughts on Marths:

• He has a lot of options for control. Especially on small stages
  • Proper zoning can punish characters that use projectiles
• Neutral game
  • (Rising) Shorthop fairs are great for approaching
    • Countered by shields, and when the opponent down-shields
  • Dash dance and dash dance grab for neutral.
    • If they escape to a platform from the air, you are at an especially strong position
    • Dash forward, slightly black, and forward dash attack (or grab) is great against Shiek.
      • If they take the bait, they are overextended and ready for a punish.
• Range and disjointed hitbox means he oftentimes has aerial priority.
  • Advancing and retreating FAIRS, (try mixing in another jump and a dair sometimes), d tilt when you land
• Unpredictable and mind games
  
  • Do you always upair or fair when they are on platforms?
    • Make a challenge to practice throwing someone onto a platform, wave landing, (double) grabbing, and trying an aerial combo or ken combo on medium weight and fast fallers
  • Occasional counters (edgegaurd, aerial)
  • While edgeuarding, using shieldbreaker can force an opponent to approach/recover from a different vector
    • Making them think you are going to use it can be better than using it
      • Fox and Shiek are especially good examples
      • Shiek has a high lagtime when she hits the ground. If you can force her to recover onto the stage instead of the ledge, you can punish her.
• Down tilt is good for neutral and shield pressure. Quick, high range, push back and a funny wavedash animation

Question:
Is shorthopping the ledge and nair any good?

 

[bboss]

Hello! I'm a 14 year old player from Chicago, IL and I would like some help analyzing my Marth video against Oro?! I'm not very experienced in the Shiek matchup, and I know what I did wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2RodXsRBow



I should have Up-threw instead of F-threw, and my edgegaurding was extremely flawed because I didn't roll of the ledge. Any help with neutral would probably be the most helpful, but any suggestions or discussion will help.
Thanks in advanced!

Tao bruh. Watched this match twice now, what it seemed your main problem was dropping edgeguards. There was one time you had a confirmed and you tried to go for the dair, and he lived and you eventually died.
You have to realize though that Oro is freaking good. Best PM Zero Suit in the world, and also he has a great knowledge of Melee. I'm assuming there were a bit of nerves involved, but if there were, you didn't really show them and played pretty well. Maybe a bit more mindgames, and go for a bit more reads, because your techskill is literally top 100 Melee players.

 

[SSBM Tao]

Tao bruh. Watched this match twice now, what it seemed your main problem was dropping edgeguards. There was one time you had a confirmed and you tried to go for the dair, and he lived and you eventually died.
You have to realize though that Oro is freaking good. Best PM Zero Suit in the world, and also he has a great knowledge of Melee. I'm assuming there were a bit of nerves involved, but if there were, you didn't really show them and played pretty well. Maybe a bit more mindgames, and go for a bit more reads, because your techskill is literally top 100 Melee players.

Top 100? You really think so? Isn't j falls the best zss? I know I should have rolled off ledge when he clipped on stage with his up b. And I am working on that.

 

[SSBM Tao]

[QUOTE="
Question:
Is shorthopping the ledge and nair any good?[/QUOTE]
As a mix up, I think it is just as good as any other option, but needless to say it is bad if it is overused. Throughout the set I tried to mix up my ledge options often.
I also don't know the %s where you can wave land double grab from a platform tech chase so I don't do it often, it didn't I'm this set, but I use it as a mix up. Almost 1/10 of the times

 

[bboss]

Isn't j falls the best zss

Nah he's not been playing that well lately. Currently I think Oro?! is better.

 

[DYLirious94]

Ok so first off, you wanna analyze the game and really break it down, start it off and then when someone gets hit in neutral go back and figure out why and whether it was a bad mistake or someone made a read..then find where you or he got out of the combo and why. Then repeat till death, the key is to find out where you messed up and why.

For example you failed to close out 3 or more stocks during the set because you chose to grab the landing lag of sheik. So you ask...
(Disclaimer: im not a marth main)
Was it because i messed up? Yes, mightve been.
What can i do better?
_Maybe execute the grab better?
_Back air sheik back off when she lands just on ledge?
_soft up air to a back air or something else?
_nair off of ledge using the first hit to get behind sheik (more towards center stage) and hit her back offstage then repeat?
_ect ect..

You get the gist from that though..figure out why you got hit or messed up and think about what you can do better or whether its a matter of fixing messed up tech or whatever it may be. So you rewatch your own video then tell me/yourself what you couldve done better.

P.s. some instances may not be a matter of you messed up, just that he made a good read.