Helicopter Kick vs Piston Punch

Helicopter Kick or Piston Punch?


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Dapuffster
#1
Right, so this topic has probably been discussed alot, but from what I've heard, it's a major topic in the Mii Discord chat. I don't ever plan on going to discord, and since nobody wants to come to Skype where I am, I'll just discuss this here.

Helicopter Kick, or Piston Punch? That is a question. A very good question. Because both moves are great, and If I could, I'd use them both. But unfortunately we are being given a decision on which one to use, and it could very well impact Brawler's viability in the long run. So lets compare and contrast these two, to see which one might be better against the future of the metagame.

First lets get the frame data out of the way

Piston Punch comes out Frame 4
Helicopter Kick comes out Frame 8

So PP comes out twice as fast, this is an excellent OOS option. Not only that, but along with it's upwards angle, it makes it easier to catch opponents out of their air dodge. So very similar to Sheik that at higher percentages where d-throw up B is no longer a true combo, it becomes 50/50. On the other hand, Helicopter Kick has a much harder time catching air dodges. I've read airdodges plenty of times, but I can never seem to connect the move, most likely do to it's diagonal angle. Piston Punch is simply just better at catching airdoges.

When it comes to safety, Helicopter Kick is able to do weaving, whereas Piston Punch has to come directly back down. Helicopter Kick wins when it comes to evasiveness, but I feel like half of the time I get away with using the move because my opponent underestimates it's evasiveness. As the metagame progresses, people will get better at punishing a whiffed Helicopter Kick.

Overall, I think Piston Punch wins this category.

BKB/KBG
Piston Punch: 74/180
Helicopter Kick: 60/150(Air) 155(Ground)

Piston Punch is again, stronger in every way. It comes out faster, and it kills earlier. This makes Brawler have an easier time killing at higher percentages, compared to Helicopter Kick. It helps considering some stages make him kill sooner, but we'll get into that soon.

Piston Punch wins this category.

So, why do we use Helicopter Kick?

Mostly, it's because it can do one thing on almost every stage that Piston Punch cannot. Kill early at the ledge, MUCH earlier. It may be weaker, but the one thing I can do is move pretty far horizontally, which brings the opponent very close to the blastzones to KO them despite their low percentage. This is pretty much universal for every stage, except for Smashville which it's even better because of the platform assist sometimes.

This brings me to the topic of stages. Helicopter Kick is more or less even on most of them, and Piston Punch can vary depending on the platforms and the ceiling height.

With the introduction to Dreamland 64, Piston Punch now has both that stage alongside Town and City as early KO stages. Might not have the one inch punch anymore, but it still incredibly powerful. Stages where Piston Punch can fall short are stages like FD and Duck Hunt.

Now onto the subject of recovery.

A main weakness of Brawler is that he cannot recovery vertically for ****, at least with Helicopter Kick. Piston Punch gives us somewhat of a better recovery in general. Sure we don't have all the best horizontal in the world anymore, but at least it's balanced. However, if you get stuffed out of your Feint Jump while having Piston Punch, you might also be done for.

Finally, vs characters.

Overall, I think Helicopter Kick destroys characters far better than Piston Punch does. Not many can stop Brawler from getting them to the ledge, I believe. But the few that can stop Brawler, flat out destroy him. Piston Punch doesn't really destroy anyone, except maybe for Luigi who has such poor aerial mobility that he can't do anything to dodge it. Piston Punch also has a weakness against fastfallers who won't die so easily vertically.


So, in the long run. Piston Punch is overall worse than Helicopter Kick, despite it's better frame-data and kill potential, all because of that early KO combo that Helicopter Kick has. HOWEVER, Helicopter Kick has some terribly bad matchups that I believe, that make Brawler not solo-viable. If you want to win a national with a character like that, you're gonna need a secondary. Helicopter Kick is more or less a more extreme version of Piston Punch. It can be better in some case scenarios, but at the same time it has weaknesses that can be exploited, that Piston Punch doesn't really have.

That's my dilemma here, I love both moves, I've used both in tournament. Granted, I haven't really used Piston Punch since the 3ds days, but yeah. Still a tough decision and it would be just best if we could use them depending on the situation, but we can't.

Finally, I'd just like to say I'd use different moves depending on which Up special we go with. Because if we go with Helicopter Kick, we want to focus on KO potential over racking up percent. That means I'd prefer Ultimate Uppercut over Shotput.

On the other hand, if we go with Piston Punch, we want our opponents to be at a higher percentage like normal, so Shotput would be the way to go, along with that we'd have a move that gives us a better time at edgegaurding along with the fact that we can play the neutral better against characters like Luigi or Cloud.

So, if we go with Helicopter Kick, we should do 2122.

If we go with Piston Punch, we should do 1132.

So yeah. I'm conflicted. I don't know which one to choose. It's like picking a favorite child. I want you Mii Brawlers to read this, and help me decide based on the information that I've given you. I really do want to try a tournament with Piston Punch, just to see how it goes. Unfortunately I have to find a tournament that would let me do that to begin with.

Let me know what you all think, and thanks for reading.
 

BigLord

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#2
I pretty much agree with all of your post. I just don't like using HK but I can plainly see why so many people like it. So I can't decide on which one is better :/ I guess I just don't want people to come out with their main character harmed... I know I probably am not playing Mii Brawler if its only moveset is 2122.

One of the main reasons I have for using Piston Punch and Shotput is because it makes Mii Brawler a threat on any part of the stage. You get grabbed by HK Brawler in the middle of the stage? You're probably safe, just gonna get damaged. But if he has PP and you're at the right percentage, you're probably gonna a get KO'd. Specially if the throw comes out quickly enough to negate your DI reaction time (Mii Brawler's dash grab is great, down throw is quick). After certain percents, it doesn't combo anymore and you have to start fishing for KOs... Oh look, an OoS option! Shotput helps putting the opponent in a high enough percentage for PP OoS to KO. Also, it's a projectile, so it helps.

But again, I'm biased, since I can't seem to be able to use HK correctly. Same thing happens with UU, even.

Your final options are interesting, considering 2122 is what most serious Brawlers I know use, and 1132 is what I have been using ever since you recommended Feint Jump to me (and to everyone really). I've never met anyone who also uses 1132 (besides past you). They're probably out there, I guess...
Please join the Discord Armii, we miss you there
 

Routa

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#3
The PP vs Helikick situation is very similar to that of a SSD vs Hero's Spin situation on Swordfighter.
I will explain the problem on Swordy and then jump to talk about the Brawler counterpart. I will do it this way 'cause I am far more familiar with Swordy and actually main him while I use Brawler as a secondary.

So Swordies have an issue to choose from SSD or Hero's Spin. Many Swordie users prefer Hero's Spin and minority of the players prefer SSD. The reason why many prefer Hero's Spin is that it is amazing kill move OoS. Swordfighter is known from his piss poor ways to kill (or lack of reliable ways to kill) and Hero's Spin gives you that... A reliable way to kill. Now lets take a look at SSD. It is pretty much like Fox's Up-B with slightly more travel distance and a more favourable hitbox placement. Why would you use SSD over Hero's Spin? SSD has greater recovery distance and is harder to edgeguard (unless your foe has Counter then rip). That is what most of the people see in that move. Nothing special, eh? Clearly worse than Hero's Spin, eh? Not 100% true. There are some Swordie mains that claim SSD being a superior option to that of a Hero's Spin (I and Nyani to name some).
+ SSD allows you to stall when recovering and still make it back (using a stalling move will kill your momentum and hinder the travel distance of Hero's Spin due to lack of momentum).
+ Going for a off-stage edgeguarding is easier due to more safe recovery option
+ Possibility to recover from multiple angles
In general SSD improves the areas where Swordy is already good at.

And this leads to the PP vs Helikick discussion. Brawler, like Swordspider, has hard time killing so Helikick (Hero's Spin) seems obvious choice for majority of the players. It kills at very low %, is easy to throw out and has decent horizontal travel distance. Why are there Brawlers like Big Lord who use PP instead of Helikick? The reason is that PP improves the areas Brawler is already good at along with improving the areas where he is lacking. Let's see in which areas Brawler is lacking and in which areas he is good at:
Gud stuff
+ Punishing
+ Racking up damage quickly
And now where he is bad and lacking
- Reliable ways to kill
- Vertical Recovery
- AD punishing
PP is amazing punish tool anywhere on the stage due to how quick and powerful it is. It also deals very good amount of damage. PP gives Brawler a way to kill OoS and also improves his vertical recovery a bit. Also it gives us a powerful AD punish tool from air and from ground. Well you already stated there facts.

Now yes Heli is indeed superior kill move... Near the ledge. What is the last place where Brawler wants to bii? Near the ledge. Why? Piss poor recovery (vertically). PP gives a good way to kill anywhere the stage, while Heli is very position based, has no true follow ups after certain % range and can bii SDIed out (if I remember correctly). Also Heli has a bad reputation of being broken (PP also has this rep, but due to its rarity many have forgot the one inch punch).

What I'm trying to say that I think that Heli is the way to go if we look at the viability now, but PP is better in the long run. I do agree Helikick is indeed better on 0:0 size, but as for Guest size I would say that PP is better. Same goes with Swordy. SSD for Guest and Hero's Spin for 0:0 and 0:100 sizes.

And sorry if I made your eyes bleed due to my horrible linguistic skills, but I hope you understood what I meant.
 

Yikarur

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#4
Piston Punch comes out Frame 4

Helicopter Kick comes out Frame 8

So PP comes out twice as fast, this is an excellent OOS option. Not only that, but along with it's upwards angle, it makes it easier to catch opponents out of their air dodge. So very similar to Sheik that at higher percentages where d-throw up B is no longer a true combo, it becomes 50/50. On the other hand, Helicopter Kick has a much harder time catching air dodges. I've read airdodges plenty of times, but I can never seem to connect the move, most likely do to it's diagonal angle. Piston Punch is simply just better at catching airdoges.
With Helicopter Kick you have dthrow -> upB true combo up until ~70% (no rage) regardless of DI (The timing gets a lot stricter and you need to read there DI at higher% because you cannot react fast enough), and after that it becomes a 50:50 and there are opportunities to do dthrow -> upair -> upB as a true combo.

Not being able to catch airdodges is entirely your fault. I have no problems with it but it took a bit of training I guess. The timing feels unnatural. But it’s definitely possible. I’m doing this all the time, it’s really important.

If you DI away from a Piston Punch Mii Brawler it fails to connect after about 50% so it’s much less reliable.

Out of Shield Helicopter Kick is usually the better move because it reaches far in front of you, while PP Hitbox is pretty small so it’s only really good OoS if your opponent has poor spacing.


When it comes to safety, Helicopter Kick is able to do weaving, whereas Piston Punch has to come directly back down. Helicopter Kick wins when it comes to evasiveness, but I feel like half of the time I get away with using the move because my opponent underestimates it's evasiveness. As the metagame progresses, people will get better at punishing a whiffed Helicopter Kick.
I play against people who know the match-up by heart but it’s still very hard to punish because there is one point in HK’s free fall where you can shift directions immediately. They have to guess or charge a dsmash if your landing window is small enough (it usually isn’t)


BKB/KBG

Piston Punch: 74/180

Helicopter Kick: 60/150(Air) 155(Ground)

Piston Punch is again, stronger in every way. It comes out faster, and it kills earlier. This makes Brawler have an easier time killing at higher percentages, compared to Helicopter Kick. It helps considering some stages make him kill sooner, but we'll get into that soon.

Piston Punch wins this category.
Damage is a huge part of the knockback formula. Helicopter Kick’s last hit does 8% and Piston Punchs last hit does 2%.

If I calculate Piston Punches Knockback with kuroganes calculator and input 2% and 8% as the variables the 2% version does 158 KB and the 8% version does 242KB with the data I’ve input. (huuuge difference)

So I input 100% as my own %, 100% for the opponent on a Mii Brawler (100 weight) and 1,05 freshness bonus with Helicopter Kick and Piston Punch

Helicopter Kick (8% / BKB: 60 / KBG: 150)
Vs. Mode:
217KB
Training Mode (No Rage): 200KB

Piston Punch (2% / BKB 72 / KBG: 180)
Vs. Mode:
172KB
Training Mode (No Rage): 157KB

Helicopter Kick wins in overall strength by far. (the grounded version is even stronger and hits more upward than the aerial version) Piston Punch has the advantage that the position doesn’t matter to get the KO and that it carrys you a bit upward, which brings you closer to the blastzones tho.


Now onto the subject of recovery.

A main weakness of Brawler is that he cannot recovery vertically for ****, at least with Helicopter Kick. Piston Punch gives us somewhat of a better recovery in general. Sure we don't have all the best horizontal in the world anymore, but at least it's balanced. However, if you get stuffed out of your Feint Jump while having Piston Punch, you might also be done for.
There is something I want to point out.

Piston Punchs vertical height is momentum based. This means it gets a lot higher if you are rising (jumping) and it’s a lot lower if you are falling.

If you are falling Piston Punch Is BARELY higher then Helicopter kick. (Little Macs upB works the same).

So at what point do you really want a good vertical recovery? It’s most of the time the moment where your jump is gone and you try to recover low by traveling as much horizontal distance as possible but you are not reaching the ledge. In this case Piston Punch doesn’t help at all, because while you are falling it’s vertical distance is about as bad as Helicopter Kick’s.

The only moments where piston punch is clearly better is if you want to do walk-off aerials and get back with DJ -> UpB, if you get spiked and have your jump left -> upB, or if you for some reason want to recover low and have your jump spared for that moment.

In all other cases Helicopter Kick is superior because while it has amount the same vertical recovery in those cases (yes, PP sucks when you are falling, test it yourself) it gains a lot of horizontal travel to compensate while Piston Punch gives you about zero forward momentum.

To be fair you get a higher piston punch by doing wall jumps as well, so if you run PP always keep that in mind.


Your stage blastzone knowledge is not on point.

http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-blastzone-differences.381949/

You should study this thread :p

Tl;dr

Duck Hunt, Dreamland, Final Destination, Lylat Cruise and Smashville have about the same vertical blastzone height.

Smashville, Duck Hunt, Final Destination, Town & City, Lylat Cruise have about the same Ledge to Blastzone length.

So, if we go with Helicopter Kick, we should do 2122.


If we go with Piston Punch, we should do 1132.
I don't agree with yo on the change of the neutral special. I think you are thinking to superficial in that regard. Ultimate Uppercut is in my opinion the best option regardless of moveset, because shotput is.. really mediocre :/

So, in the long run. Piston Punch is overall worse than Helicopter Kick, despite it's better frame-data and kill potential, all because of that early KO combo that Helicopter Kick has. HOWEVER, Helicopter Kick has some terribly bad matchups that I believe, that make Brawler not solo-viable. If you want to win a national with a character like that, you're gonna need a secondary. Helicopter Kick is more or less a more extreme version of Piston Punch. It can be better in some case scenarios, but at the same time it has weaknesses that can be exploited, that Piston Punch doesn't really have.
Can you elaborate on that? I don’t think Mii Brawler has any terrible MU that would destroy his viability.
 
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wizrad

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nin10L3ro
#5
First post in a long time for Mii.

I've discovered a few things since we started discussing "golden sets" AS A TEMPORARY COMPROMISE. Firstly, you can fall out of both moves, although I don't know how for either. Secondly, BDK hits a frame faster than Onslaught.

I agree with Jigglymaster Jigglymaster about UU + HK and SP + PP. It's not that SP is ever better than UU, it's that shield > PP can fulfill UU's role as a quick defensive killer, making UU somewhat redundant as PP is better than UU. SP is something we don't have at all: a projectile. Might as well add it if we can.

I'm not sure what else I can add to this up B discussion, but I will vouch for BDK over Onslaught. Just don't miss (;
 

AEMehr

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#7
I really dislike your snarky responses, they make me not want to converse this topic with you.

What makes it really ironic is that you were the one who brought me into this whole mess.
Your sense of Snark is lost on me, I don't really see it here.

I understand there's a little beef between you two, but I think it's best if you try to look past that and give him a proper response. :U
 

pichuboy9

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GrouchoMarxist
#8
I really dislike your snarky responses, they make me not want to converse this topic with you.

What makes it really ironic is that you were the one who brought me into this whole mess.
I'm not sure where Yikarur was being snarky. They made a long, well thought out post in response to your OP. I understand there is beef between y'all, but that doesn't mean we can't have a civilized conversation about PP vs HK.

Granted, I feel as if HK is the better move just because of the early killing capabilities.
 
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Dapuffster
#9
Saying things like "It's entirely my fault for missing" is complete BS. there is a lot of other factors we have to consider here, like how my opponents could just be better at dodging than his opponents, or just better at punishing a whiffed Helicopter Kick.

Like, maybe if we could not take jabs at whos the better Mii Brawler I'd be okay with having a discussion here.

I'm sorry but I'm not doing this discussion anymore. I thought we were done with this but I guess we weren't.
 

AEMehr

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#10
Negating another opinion over something so trivial? Really?

I mean you can use player difference as a counterpoint; not just get miffed at his response, call yourself the best, and leave.

- - - - - - - - -

He has legit counter arguments here, Piston Punch being momentum based is a huge deal breaker in the recovery department, which is a major factor it supposedly has over Helicopter Kick. A response to that would be nice on your part at least.
 

Yikarur

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#11
Saying things like "It's entirely my fault for missing" is complete BS.
I didn't mean it in an offensive way. I just wanted to make clear that you can learn the timing and not being able to punish air dodges is the player's fault.
It was not meant offensive in the slightest way. It was a general "you" and not directed at you personally.
 
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maelodic
#12
Getting back on topic here...

I personally use piston punch - I find it more difficult to get reliable kills with hurricane and I do prefer the higher vertical recovery. With PP you always have a 50:50 kill throw, whereas the effectiveness of hurricane kick drops off after higher percentages and it's much harder to secure the kill. Even on high ceiling stages, piston punch kills reliably at the percentages you're used to, and on low ceiling stages, particularly off a platform, it can kill very early.

Hurricane kick does seem objectively better, especially since it's safer, but I've gravitated toward piston punch just because it is far more reliable to me as a tool where hurricane is more hit and miss.

Unrelated: I'd be happy to discuss with you on Skype Jigglymaster, but I'm also more of a fan of yours than a peer.
 

BigLord

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#13
Does someone have a comparison gif/video of Piston Punch VS HK available? I find it a little hard to believe that PP without a second jump only goes a little farther vertically than HK...
 
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T0MMY

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#14
Recovery shouldn't be an issue if running with Feint Jump and Burning Drop Kick; only vertical matters to me without jump, no wall, and HK as last chance. Which is another reason among others why I generally will always run PP.
Meta will evolve to 2232 and be tweaked for MU specific, my predictions if trends continue.
 

wizrad

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#15
I just don't understand how I'm the only one concerned about how it is possible to escape our best kill moves.
 
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maelodic
#16
I just don't understand how I'm the only one concerned about how it is possible to escape our best kill moves.
From what I understand, smaller characters don't tend to drop out of piston punch, and larger characters don't tend to drop out of helicopter kick.
I've not really experienced anybody dropping out of either, though.
 
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