Heart Rate of Smashers

[Keeshu]

I recently got a heart rate monitor for multiple reasons and decided to test it out while playing smash out of curiosity. I mainly wanted to know when my mind shifts gears and to know if it's a good indicator of when I start to panic when playing the game since I have a pretty weak mental game when it comes to people's shenanigans sometimes, that way I can figure out what + when something keeps throwing me off my game. So a kind of success, but as expected it's not quite that simple.

I've had the heart rate monitor for 2 days and played a bunch of matches in that time. Normal heart rate is around 75-80 for me, Casual/matches where I don't try the heart rate is around 85-90. However the interesting part is my heart rate when using Lucario is usually around 95-105 when playing normally, but if I try very hard it's around 120-130 (that's pretty close to a normal exercise where I get 140-150!). With Meta Knight he is around 95-105 as well, but generally only around 110-120 when I try hard with him. With that said though, when I play Ike or Ridley they stick around 85-95 when I play normally, and peaking at only around 100 when I try hard with them.

So this got me wondering is it bad/good to have a higher/lower heart rate? Does it depend on the character? Pros/cons for each? Like perhaps if you have a high heart rate your inputs are faster, but you're more likely to be impulsive? Or is it always better to have a lower heart rate where you are calm and collected? Also is it possible to have a high heart rate without panicing and if that is so, is there a way to get benefits out of that? Would that be like entering flow state, or can flow state be achieved with low heart rate?

I know heart rate isn't going to tell you exactly what's going on with what's going on in your mind, but it does at least give an indicator that something is happening.

Let me know what you think! I tried looking around but couldn't find anything on this subject.

 

[Rᴀᴍᴇɴ]

Well, I'm not a doctor or professor or whatever, but I think good/bad heart rates would depend on your age.

However, I think it's better to try to maintain a lower heart rate. Now I have no research to back up my claims and I'm only going off of personal experience, so you can take what I say with a grain of salt, but from what I have experienced, a lower heart rate means that I'm much calmer than I am with a higher heart rate.

When I have a lower heart rate, I feel less pressured when I play compared to when my heart is beating harder than a drum. Due to this, I think I am able to think through my decision-making during a game more thoroughly than if I had a higher heart rate. I also feel that I'm less likely to make a mistake or have a misinput since I'm feeling much calmer.

When I have a higher heart rate, I feel much pressured when I play. Due to this, my decision-making would occur a lot faster, sometimes without rhyme or reasoning, which may lead to great or poor effects depending on the situation. I do think that players who feel pressured will most likely make faster decisions than calmer players, but I also think those pressured players are more likely to make mistakes or have misinputs since they would usually want to end the game in their favor as quick as possible in order to relieve the pressure.

TL;DR, I think higher heart rates cause people to make inputs faster at the cost of being pressured & likely making a misinput, while lower rates cause people to make slower inputs, but with the advantage of rationale decision-making.

Personally, I think it's better to try to maintain a low heart rate, just so you can be more thorough in decision making, which can reduce chances of making mistakes. I wouldn't say that heart rate would depend on character, but really the situation you're in (i.e. tournament setting, Elite Smash, etc). I think the only way that someone can have a high heart rate without being under some type of pressure is if the person's heart rate is naturally high. Now with flow state, I think someone is more likely to achieve it if the person is at a lower heart rate, but I'm not the most sure on that since people are built differently.

Anyway, I hope I was able to provide insight or help you in anyway. If you have any other questions or any other things to say, please feel free to reply here or even send me a message on Discord! My tag is Ramen#2886!

 

[Doc Monocle]

I recently got a heart rate monitor for multiple reasons and decided to test it out while playing smash out of curiosity. I mainly wanted to know when my mind shifts gears and to know if it's a good indicator of when I start to panic when playing the game since I have a pretty weak mental game when it comes to people's shenanigans sometimes, that way I can figure out what + when something keeps throwing me off my game. So a kind of success, but as expected it's not quite that simple.

I've had the heart rate monitor for 2 days and played a bunch of matches in that time. Normal heart rate is around 75-80 for me, Casual/matches where I don't try the heart rate is around 85-90. However the interesting part is my heart rate when using Lucario is usually around 95-105 when playing normally, but if I try very hard it's around 120-130 (that's pretty close to a normal exercise where I get 140-150!). With Meta Knight he is around 95-105 as well, but generally only around 110-120 when I try hard with him. With that said though, when I play Ike or Ridley they stick around 85-95 when I play normally, and peaking at only around 100 when I try hard with them.

So this got me wondering is it bad/good to have a higher/lower heart rate? Does it depend on the character? Pros/cons for each? Like perhaps if you have a high heart rate your inputs are faster, but you're more likely to be impulsive? Or is it always better to have a lower heart rate where you are calm and collected? Also is it possible to have a high heart rate without panicing and if that is so, is there a way to get benefits out of that? Would that be like entering flow state, or can flow state be achieved with low heart rate?

I know heart rate isn't going to tell you exactly what's going on with what's going on in your mind, but it does at least give an indicator that something is happening.

Let me know what you think! I tried looking around but couldn't find anything on this subject.

This is a fascinating experiment you performed!

My thoughts: On the effect of heart rate, I largely agree with Ramen. On characters, seeing as how you main Lucario and Meta Knight, it is only reasonable that your heart rate would be higher playing as them since you would more likely DESIRE to have better results with them, generating nervous stimulation to a higher extent during more intense games than would be generated by using characters you care not as much for.

 

[Keeshu]

This is a fascinating experiment you performed!

My thoughts: On the effect of heart rate, I largely agree with Ramen. On characters, seeing as how you main Lucario and Meta Knight, it is only reasonable that your heart rate would be higher playing as them since you would more likely DESIRE to have better results with them, generating nervous stimulation to a higher extent during more intense games than would be generated by using characters you care not as much for.

I definitely notice a difference in characters I want to win with. When I play Ike, since he's so basic and I don't know anything about Ike as a character and thus don't care about winning with him, my mind is left focusing entirely on what the opponent is doing. With Ridley, he's combo food, and a lot of characters can either deal massive damage or even 0 to death him, so I kinda expect to lose with him against good players. So I kinda focus on finding weaknesses in the opponent's playstyle and just punish really hard with him. Meta Knight has really fast gameplay, and it feels like I have to win neutral a million times in order to win, but since he was my main for a long time I try to do well with him. Lucario was the other character I was trying to main for a long time, but due to his kinda slow frame data for how short his range is, gotta pay very close attention to the opponent. Unlike Ike and Ridley, you'll probably get hit if you miss. While my heart rate raises at high%s, aura just like doubles that feeling since it's so important when playing the character since you might not get high aura again so you gotta make it count, which is hard because any hit could kill you. So yeah, Lucario raising the heart rate so much is kind of expected, he's so intense and I love it!

I need to do some tests on it all again at some point out of curiosity. I've been getting more sleep and have been exercising a ton, so my heart rate is much lower in general all the time now. Gotta say, Smash feels a bazillion times easier to play, everything feels like it's in slo-motion compared to before.

Heart rate is usually in the 60 or low 70s now normally which is significantly lower than the 75-80s it was before. Since my heart rate has been that low I haven't tried all that hard in Smash because I was waiting until January 1st to train all hardcore everyday, while doing catching up on other things before that date. Then that date came and I got sick, so my heart rate was just high in general. So the only video I have since my lowered heart rate is when I did the Sephiroth Challenge. My heart rate then was in the 80s when playing normally. Then it's spike around the 90s, usually when I get low health. Though I was only playing Cloud, Ganondorf, and a Mii Swordsman disguised as Sephiroth for the majority. With that said, the desire to win did seem to come in effect because I was just trying to gimp Sephiroth with Meta Knight instead of fighting normally. So not giving a care in the world and it was low 80s the entire time with Meta Knight.. Of course fighting humans can be a bit more intense so time will tell. Though my heart rate increasing at low %s does kinda make me realize how I fight about other people anyways since I usually do my best on my last stock because I love crazy comebacks. If only I could harness that power earlier in matches. Of course, it might just be me playing differently in last stock situations and it confuses human opponents.

With all that said, it's been more helpful looking at heartrates than I initially thought because it's much easier to spot when something in the match starts making me nervous or feel any other emotion strongly. Makes it easier to pinpoint what distracts me, so I can have an easier time narrowing down what I need to work on.

 

[Doc Monocle]

I usually do my best on my last stock because I love crazy comebacks. If only I could harness that power earlier in matches. O

It sounds to me like YOU are Lucario... Hehe! I am (honestly, was) a Brawl King Dedede and Ganondorf main, and my blood pressure was always up playing as them. The former because his size, low attack speed, and easy to escape attacks made him easy to cramp in close quarters, especially in congested areas against small and fast characters, which I was desperate to demonstrate as not actually being superior to heavy characters; and the latter because he you have to keep your opponent tense at all times to succeed, otherwise they will out-range and out-speed you in most cases.

However, there is a certain charm in negotiating your character's weaknessses, so I am not complaining.

 

[AndresSSB]

I recently got a heart rate monitor for multiple reasons and decided to test it out while playing smash out of curiosity. I mainly wanted to know when my mind shifts gears and to know if it's a good indicator of when I start to panic when playing the game since I have a pretty weak mental game when it comes to people's shenanigans sometimes, that way I can figure out what + when something keeps throwing me off my game. So a kind of success, but as expected it's not quite that simple.

I've had the heart rate monitor for 2 days and played a bunch of matches in that time. Normal heart rate is around 75-80 for me, Casual/matches where I don't try the heart rate is around 85-90. However the interesting part is my heart rate when using Lucario is usually around 95-105 when playing normally, but if I try very hard it's around 120-130 (that's pretty close to a normal exercise where I get 140-150!). With Meta Knight he is around 95-105 as well, but generally only around 110-120 when I try hard with him. With that said though, when I play Ike or Ridley they stick around 85-95 when I play normally, and peaking at only around 100 when I try hard with them.

So this got me wondering is it bad/good to have a higher/lower heart rate? Does it depend on the character? Pros/cons for each? Like perhaps if you have a high heart rate your inputs are faster, but you're more likely to be impulsive? Or is it always better to have a lower heart rate where you are calm and collected? Also is it possible to have a high heart rate without panicing and if that is so, is there a way to get benefits out of that? Would that be like entering flow state, or can flow state be achieved with low heart rate?

I know heart rate isn't going to tell you exactly what's going on with what's going on in your mind, but it does at least give an indicator that something is happening.

Let me know what you think! I tried looking around but couldn't find anything on this subject.

Even though this is a forum for Ultimate, when I'm in a last stock situation in melee, My heart rate goes through the roof, since jigglypuff is a glass canon. In ultimate though, my heart rate never really went up when I play Olimar, unless of course game 5 last stock

 

[Keeshu]

Even though this is a forum for Ultimate, when I'm in a last stock situation in melee, My heart rate goes through the roof, since jigglypuff is a glass canon. In ultimate though, my heart rate never really went up when I play Olimar, unless of course game 5 last stock

Hungrybox getting above 190 Heart Rate
I can believe your heart rate going up pretty high with melee Jigglypuff because Hungrybox's heart rate goes incredibly high when he is in an intense match.... Of course he does drink energy drinks if I remember right, which speeds up your heart rate quite a bit. I don't know how high his heart rate is normally when he isn't playing because I haven't watched his streams, and only seen a few of his videos from time to time.
I just want to say based on personal experience, while energy drinks do make it easier to concentrate and play much more quickly and efficiently, it's not something you should do daily. The effect they have on you starts to go away a bit overtime.

As for Olimar in Ultimate not making your heart rate go up as much, there's probably a few things at play.
1. Melee plays a bit faster in general, also anyone still left playing Melee is probably going to be a die hard fan that practices a lot, so you have to focus much harder compared to most people you may encounter in Ultimate, especially with the way wifi is.
2. Now I'm no Olimar expert, but based on the little bit I have played with him: Olimar is rather slow movement-wise in comparison to Jigglypuff. Also emphasis on keeping distance using Pikmin, forcing opponents to do predictable things so you can hit with close range attacks seems a lot less stressful than dealing with the constant dash dancing with the threat of a devastating combo that characters can do in Melee. Also people just struggle to fight Olimar in general from what I've seen because people don't play him that much, which leads to even easier reads for less stressful matches. If I were to play Olimar, I think I'd only really stress out if I tried to focus more on the order of pikmin and which pikmin I had out since he's a pretty simple character outside of that. Which I would try to do if I was an Olimar main, but since I'm not, I don't. Which leads to Olimar being relaxing compared to a lot of other characters.
3. Perhaps you care about winning with Jigglypuff and/or in Melee a lot more than playing Olimar in Ultimate like Doc Monocle was telling me about me trying to win with Meta Knight/Lucario. I dunno how much you play of Ultimate, but if you're seeking matches that are incredibly intense, maybe there's some other character that would be more intense for you. Not saying you should change mains for that of course. A lot of people prefer to be relaxed so it's easier to make decisions. Especially since tournaments are likely to make you more stressed already, no need to add onto that.

It sounds to me like YOU are Lucario... Hehe! I am (honestly, was) a Brawl King Dedede and Ganondorf main, and my blood pressure was always up playing as them. The former because his size, low attack speed, and easy to escape attacks made him easy to cramp in close quarters, especially in congested areas against small and fast characters, which I was desperate to demonstrate as not actually being superior to heavy characters; and the latter because he you have to keep your opponent tense at all times to succeed, otherwise they will out-range and out-speed you in most cases.

However, there is a certain charm in negotiating your character's weaknessses, so I am not complaining.

Considering how hard Lucario's movie hit me because I related so hard with him when the movie came out, just hearing "YOU are Lucario" makes me very happy lol. It's kinda why I tried so hard to main Lucario. I can be happy maining just about everyone in Smash because everyone is fun in their own way, and many characters feel like they have "perfect gameplay". So I couldn't really pick anyone, so I decided to do something more personal. Since most characters are "what you see is what you get", it basically left me with just Meta Knight and Lucario. Meta Knight is basically a mascot for me being a "try-hard" as a kid, and he's basically the character that introduced me to the wonderful world of duels (which is kinda what competitive smash is all about. Yes I know there's teams, but they aren't as popular). So while both these characters were among the hardest characters in the roster to pick up due to their unique problems, they became my best and favorites to play because they had unique motivation that other characters didn't have. I had to pick up and drop them so many times. Meta Knight is very demanding on the player because if they can't do the up air combo, they have to win neutral a bazillion times, and you'd be better off with another character at that point. Lucario's aura mechanic demoralized me for a long time because it felt so gimmicky when I was getting used to him (especially since Aura was so much stronger in Smash 4). Though after a while it sorta felt like Lucario was playing multiple characters because you have to play so much more differently depending on % compared to other characters in the cast. Also I got used to his controls more so it stopped feeling clunky, and he could just "flow". Once I got over the learning cliff with them, I just can't ignore them because they feel too good to play now that I have the right mindset for the characters.

Negotiating a character's weakness can help make you fall in love with a character more (and perhaps other parts of the game as well). Hence Lucario and Meta Knight like I previously mentioned. However, they aren't the only ones that I learned to love once I was able to appreciate the disadvantages that they come with.

Spoiler

While I'm not a stranger to appreciating negatives in characters, Sm4sh Ganondorf is the character that made me appreciate that to a greater extent, while also introducing the idea to smash (because previously in Smash I played characters with hard to spot weaknesses). His his severe lack of everything in order for him to have some strong hits made me appreciate negatives in a character. Ike is similar, but he's just not as bad, and is a bit more "honest". In Ultimate both of them are buffed so they don't give as strong of an effect, but Ganondorf is just waaay too powerful now and is kinda cheesy. So Ike is my go-to if I need to get back into the competitive smash mindset,
Cloud's poor recovery made me realize how precious of a resource double jumping is for many characters. Since he's just so powerful overall on stage, then he's almost helpless once he gets offstage, he needs that double jump since he's basically dead without it.
Little Mac's abysmal air game makes his ground game look even more amazing, while also forcing me to learn how to use grounded options more. Before I played him a bunch, I'd often jump too much with other characters, I needed Little mac to keep me grounded. So now my other characters are more well rounded because of him, and I have a greater appreciation for all the things about Little Mac. Also good Little Mac players can look really awesome compared to a lot of characters.
Sheik's pitiful damage helped drive the emphasis of combos into my brain since Sheik's are so crazy good, which led me to drastically improving with Meta Knight after I played Sheik. Especially since Sheik can't just do the same thing over and over again expecting it to work like Mario does with his up airs. Before playing Sheik, all the characters I played were usually either zoners, a swordy, or one of the heavier characters in the game, so I didn't really have the combo-heavy character mindset in my brain yet when it came to smash.
Ridley being "too big" while being light since he's skin and bones, makes it so you just have to be okay with the fact that there's a high chance that many characters can probably 0 to death you. So he made it a lot easier for me to be okay with just suddenly losing stocks out of no-where, but that's okay, because you can just as easily take their stocks just as quickly with Ridley. This is different from Lucario's comebacks because Ridley's are more instant due to his devastating attacks and being combo'd to oblivion. Lucario makes it easier to deal with being down a stock or higher % over a longer period of time.

I'm sure there's other examples, but I think you get the idea. These are just the larger, more obvious examples based on my experience in Smash.

I have to say, people gotta get over weaknesses over their character and embrace them, otherwise they'll be very salty (and raising heart rate) making it harder to concentrate.

 

[Doc Monocle]

is his severe lack of everything in order for him to have some strong hits

(I can only speak from my experience of Brawl)
(I know this deviates somewhat from the initial topic, but I could not resist the temptation to speak while we were including Ganondorf!)
I would spend copious amounts of time analyzing Ganondorf's moveset in disbelief and denial that there are characters that were better than him.

For me, that time paid off, and I realized something about his playstyle that was rather subtle: While he is lacking in versatility and effectiveness in most traditional areas, he augments the player's mind games with peak effectiveness, and what he does have is concentrated enough to pick up the slack caused by his many weaknesses. If you try to beat most other characters at their own game, you are at a disadvantage, but if you try to beat the opponent player, Ganondorf has more than enough tools at his disposal.

How do I mean this? If we break down Ganondorf's moveset piece-by-piece, we find something interesting. Ganondorf has no projectiles, counters, reflectors, or anything that is genuinely safe to use, but considering that he is a close range brawler, he has an incredibly diverse moveset that can accommodate most close quarters scenarios.

Here is my summary of pros and cons, which I am now feeling fairly confident about replicating elsewhere:

Spoiler: Pluses and Minuses

+ Incredibly diverse, direct fighting toolkit that includes a mixed bag of reasonably quick, devastating, and ranged attacks. He features command grabs and lunging attacks that extend his range, and Volcano Kick and Dair gives him edgeguard options with proper timing. Together, he has potent attack mix ups.

+ Landing any attack is rewarding, with little if any worry about punishable sour spots. So you may concentrate on simply making the attack connect.

+ He has an outstanding air game considering his weight and limited air speed, what with attacks that come out rather quickly for their power. In overview, he is devastating on the ground, or in the air where his attacks are of reasonably consistent power and speed, thus he is a threat in either state.

+ His weight allows him substantial forgiveness for mistakes made at higher percentages than many other characters, so especially a skilled player can afford to be slightly more daring.

+ He has situational actions that are particularly potent. Examples including interaction of Wizard Kick with walls, ledges, and floor gaps, Dark dive piercing with a strike through floors, Ganoncide, Warlock Punch vs a shield broken opponent, Flight of Ganon, and an unruly meteor smash give him the flavor of an opportunist who benefits more strongly than other characters when things are proceeding according to plan, or when you are simply fortunate.

+ Believe it or not, I have found a subtle strength for characters that are of well below average movement speed. It is a property I call rush control, which characters like Captain Falcon severely lack. The concept is built on the premise that in high intensity situations, faster characters more easily miss hits when controlled by nervous and prematurely acting players on offense than a slower character with lagging attacks and poor air speed, rendering the latter able to strike more precisely and consistently in the hands of that same desperate, nervous opponent. The way this works is by providing the player with what I call fourth wall assistance, wherein a trait of the character directly or indirectly enables the player to perform more fluidly. In this case, laggy attacks that are not immediately punished give more room for the player to think by forcing them to wait, slow airspeed makes it easier to place a hitbox for an attack where you want it without overshooting or attacking too early, and slow run speed is less of a commitment to offense at medium range.

- His most obvious flaw is his inability to handle or use projectiles, so he certainly cannot camp against most characters. One strike against his defense.

- This weakness is oddly not his terrible mobility, but rather his inability to escape pressure when it comes strongly enough due to his size, low jump, and practically nonexistent evasive movement options. Strike two against his defense.

- His attacks are mostly non-disjoint. This combined with his below average start lag and endlag on many attacks and short hit windows makes him most vulnerable as he attacks if he fails to land a hit immediately. Strike three... He is out of defense!

- Almost none of his attacks are safe on shield. This hurts his offense. Oh dear!

- His recovery is subpar. He has horizontal and vertical options in Dark Dive and Flame Choke, but these are mediocre and easy to counteract.

Let us condense all of the above facts into a more comprehensible 'big picture.' Taking the most notable aspects, we find that Ganondorf is challenged on both defense and offense; has a very diverse collection of close to mid range combat mechanisms that overlap enough that they can be used to keep opponents guessing, while being specialized enough to give players incentive enough to use them for their respective tasks without losing sleep over considering alternatives (that is, any good choice is close to an optimal choice), and thereby giving players surprising flexibility at proximal ranges; and is fairly easy to thwart when trying to accomplish tasks the straightforward way.

Altogether, Ganondorf is a brawling powerhouse trickster who excels when the opponent is kept preoccupied. Letting them stay on the offense or defense long is hazardous. His bait-and-punish style can easily be offset by sniping and poking, so Ganondorf players must not give the opponent time to think, but must also hold back on strong aggression. The mission is best summarized as: KEEP THE OPPONENT IN A PERPETUAL STATE OF INDECISION AND STAGNATION, AND AT ALL COSTS, DO NOT LET THEM GAIN MOMENTUM.

 

[Keeshu]

I did not play Brawl for long because I got it soon after Online shut down for it (which was a large reason why I got it) and soon after Wii U was announced so I figured I'd just unlock stuff in Brawl, then focus on Smash 4. So I didn't get the chance to play Brawl against other people, so competitively I don't know much about it other than Meta Knight just being crazy good and other characters were basically placed on the tier list to counter him or do something crazy like chain grabs. With that said, I always thought on paper, Ganondorf's strengths match up well with Brawl since it's a game that makes it very hard to combo anyone due to lack of hitstun, so I assumed Ganondorf doing so much damage with each individual hit would benefit greatly. I guess the previously mentioned things makes it so Ganondorf has to work a lot harder than other characters. Also poking and sniping like you mentioned makes it hard on him.

For me, that time paid off, and I realized something about his playstyle that was rather subtle: While he is lacking in versatility and effectiveness in most traditional areas, he augments the player's mind games with peak effectiveness, and what he does have is concentrated enough to pick up the slack caused by his many weaknesses. If you try to beat most other characters at their own game, you are at a disadvantage, but if you try to beat the opponent player, Ganondorf has more than enough tools at his disposal.

Ah, I can't believe I didn't specifically say that in my original reply. In general I think Ganondorf mains can be some of the best players because they literally have to be in order to make things work with him. Whereas a lot of other characters it can be easy to slowly start getting worse as a player because you can get complacent in their overwhelming strengths that they can just ignore a lot of what their opponents do, especially if the opponents don't know how to deal with it.

Believe it or not, I have found a subtle strength for characters that are of well below average movement speed. It is a property I call rush control, which characters like Captain Falcon severely lack. The concept is built on the premise that in high intensity situations, faster characters more easily miss hits when controlled by nervous and prematurely acting players on offense than a slower character with lagging attacks and poor air speed, rendering the latter able to strike more precisely and consistently in the hands of that same desperate, nervous opponent. The way this works is by providing the player with what I call fourth wall assistance, wherein a trait of the character directly or indirectly enables the player to perform more fluidly. In this case, laggy attacks that are not immediately punished give more room for the player to think by forcing them to wait, slow airspeed makes it easier to place a hitbox for an attack where you want it without overshooting or attacking too early, and slow run speed is less of a commitment to offense at medium range.

This is definitely a thing, especially the lower level of play of you go. Ganondorf is definitely a nice counterpick against players with weak mental games, especially since no one wants to lose to bottom tier Ganondorf. Ganondorf can punish very hard (not sure how hard he punishes in Brawl compared to other characters though). However if someone has a strong mental game, and is so used to their character that their inputs are practically perfect even in stressful situations, Ganondorf can struggle.

Altogether, Ganondorf is a brawling powerhouse trickster who excels when the opponent is kept preoccupied. Letting them stay on the offense or defense long is hazardous. His bait-and-punish style can easily be offset by sniping and poking, so Ganondorf players must not give the opponent time to think, but must also hold back on strong aggression. The mission is best summarized as: KEEP THE OPPONENT IN A PERPETUAL STATE OF INDECISION AND STAGNATION, AND AT ALL COSTS, DO NOT LET THEM GAIN MOMENTUM.

The tricky part is getting in on the opponent to not let them think. While I feel Ganondorf benefits from this more than many characters, I don't think he's the best at causing it. Every character wants to keep the opponent guessing, but other characters generally have more options that are easier to land. Since they are faster than Ganondorf, the opponent will have to guess more often. So it comes down to mental damage form a barrage of attacks vs Ganondorf's overwhelmingly powerful single hits. However when mental damage doesn't work in either situation, faster characters can at least reliably do attacks to get damage overtime, whereas Ganondorf can be much more easily exploited.


With all that said, lately I've been curious what a player would be like if they duo-mained Ganondorf, and some other character that has more options and/or speed. Ganondorf forces you to have a solid mental game, and breaking the opponent's mental game to succeed since he lacks in some strong ways in gameplay. Most characters focus on their gimmicks, so they start lacking in such areas. So if you took the best of both worlds, it sounds pretty scary. That is to assume that the player's heart rate doesn't increase too much when they aren't playing Ganondorf that they can't focus anymore lol. Not sure what character would benefit the most from this though.

 

[Doc Monocle]

The tricky part is getti

That is absolutely correct. This I believe is where the greatest level of skill is needed-- in that moment right when your opponent thinks you could attack. Think of Ganon's first appearance in Legend of Zelda if you know of it. Right before he has the opportunity to crush Link physically, the player has a chance tointercept his movement with a sword.

In a similar essence, the trick to Ganondorf, in my opinion and experience, is in the opponent's reaction to approaches. This 'simulates' the fear factor I believe he was supposed to have in the home series. YOU MUST DO ANYTHING IN YOUR POWER TO MAKE THE OPPONENT ACT AS IF AN ATTACK WERE IMMINENT, WHEN YOU ARE REALLY KEEPING YOUR OPTIONS OPEN, AND VICE VERSA. I think Ganondorf was designed to be played with it in mind that one should trick the opponent into thinking you are being aggressive when you are actually waiting patiently, and vice versa.

Here is where I struggled most: SMALL CHARACTERS! Approaching from the ground, it is difficult to hit them with jab and ftilt, and most of them quickly roll behind you or jump and punish. Approaching from the air, because the opponent is so hard to hit vertically, you are forced to execute the attack closer to the ground, which causes a landing lag problem. In my opinion, it is not strictly fast characters that Ganondorf suffers against (the right players know how to make the speed near useless by having a mid range special ready to punish premature attacks), but small characters, which also happen to be fast.

As far as your last question is concerned, if you ask me, a player is in a difficult strait if they use a secondary as a cover for a main. It would feel to me like I was acting in fear. This is just my personal belief, but a player who specializes in a character should make every effort to ensure that they know how to cope under any conditions, whether you plan on using a secondary character or not. I know I should probably put this in the "Unpopular Smash Opinions" thread, but it seems that a character will be looked down upon less when the controlling player demonstrates that they will throttle you with or without assistance from their other favorites.

 

[Dizenn]

I have a degree in exercise science and have learned quite a bit about heart rate response during competitive events. So firstly as someone previously mentioned, age does determine ones max heart rate generally. Max heart rate is calculated as 220 - age. With that said, Hungrybox's max heart rate should be 193 since he is 27. However, in the video you posted, his heart rate hits 197 which is crazy. It's not impossible to exceed one's max HR but it takes some serious stress to make this happen.

Now what exactly causes this increase in heart rate? The increase in heart rate is merely a symptom, the true cause is the activation of the sympathetic nervous system in response to stress. The sympathetic nervous system causes epinephrine (adrenaline) and cortisol to be secreted in to the bloodstream. Epinephrine causes the increase in heart rate, as well as vasoconstriction, causing blood pressure to rise as well. Cortisol increases the availability of glucose in the bloodstream and increases the brain's uptake of glucose, since this substrate is the primary fuel for cognition. During this state, these hormones will also halt functions that are non-essential to the stress at hand, like digestion for instance. So basically my point here is that it is not simply a matter of heart rate, the body undergoes several changes to optimize response to the stressor. Heart rate is just the easiest thing to monitor to get a good idea of what all is going on.

So, how does this affect people on a personal/situational basis? Arousal is "a psychological state of alertness and anticipation that prepares the body for action. ", and the interpretation of arousal by the individual is extremely important to their response. This topic isn't perfectly understood, as we are treading in to psychology at this point. There are a few different theories on how arousal effects performance. The Drive Theory suggests that arousal and performance are directly related, as arousal increases, so does performance. The Inverted U theory suggests that arousal and performance have a sort of bell-curve shaped relationship, meaning that optimal performance comes during a state of moderate arousal. My personal favorite is the Independent Zones of Function (IZOF) theory. This theory suggests that individuals have their own zones of optimal performance, some people perform the best when only slightly aroused, some people perform their best when extremely aroused. I like this theory because you can analyze someone's personality traits and their response to stress and try to find their zone of optimal performance. Knowing how you respond to stress, and at what levels of arousal you perform best at can help you increase performance. For instance, if you know that you play your best smash at a higher arousal level and you feel pretty low energy, hyping yourself up, listening to exciting music that you like and positive self talk can help you enter this zone. Arousal level can likely be pretty accurately assessed through monitoring your heart rate too.

Lastly, how does heart rate work on a task-difficulty basis? Or rather a character playing/matchup basis for our context. I found a study done on chess players grouped into "high-performers" and "low performers" who were all given the same 6 chess puzzles. The first two puzzles were low difficulty, the next 2 were a medium difficulty and the last two were high difficulty. Unsurprisingly, the heart rate increased in both groups with the increasing difficulty of the puzzles, however the "high-performers" had a notably lower heart rate at all difficulties than the "low-performers". The big takeaway here is that the "low-performers" had significantly higher heart rates at all stages of difficulty, than the "high-performers" despite there being a pretty similar estimation of "difficulty" between the two. Additionally, the "high-performers" found the puzzles to be far less "complex" than the "low performers" did.

Differences Between High vs. Low Performance Chess Players in Heart Rate Variability During Chess Problems

Background: Heart rate variability (HRV) has been considered as a measure of heart-brain interaction and autonomic modulation, and it is modified by cognitive and attentional tasks. In cognitive tasks, HRV was reduced in participants who achieved worse ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

How can we relate this to smash? Maybe the idea of "complexity" would relate to how difficult one's character is to play and "difficulty" could relate to the matchup? Maybe MK Leo ( a "high-performer") playing Ike (low complexity) against Fatalities falcon (low difficulty, easy matchup), would have a significantly lower heart rate than some wifi warrior playing ike in a tournament against a sweaty pikachu?

 

[Doc Monocle]

The Inverted U theory suggests that arousal and performance have a sort of bell-curve shaped relationshi

So how are the measurements taken here? That is, how would one's Smash Bros. performance be (A) defined and (B) measured objectively across games?

 

[Keeshu]

Thank you so much for mentioning all of this! This is all very interesting information!



Drive theory - Just watching back some of my videos with my heart rate and just looking back at my performances in various games. I can definitely understand why this is a theory since this is always what happens for me. I've actually started to just stay standing when playing hard games now, and it's been making it a bit easier to concentrate since my body is a bit more activated since the heart rate will be around 10-20 higher when I stand. Though of course, this is just based on my experiences. Could be other things going on, and there could be a placebo effect happening.

Inverted U theory - Makes sense to me. If it's too strong, the body and mind start kind of shutting down due to panic. Too weak and you'll lose concentration. I would the "correct" amount of arousal varies from whatever activity you're trying to do.

Independent Zones of Function - Also makes a lot of sense to me. Based on what happens in your life, you learn how to operate under certain levels of stress.
Me personally:

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I'm terrible with stress. It makes me feel like I have to constantly be doing something so it'll go away so there is nothing to cause stress. Sometimes that causes more stress though. The best heart rate to perform at seems to vary from character to character since they require different trains of thought, and things to focus on, and play at different speeds. Though in general higher heart rate seems to help me make better decisions as long as I'm not panicing. If I start panicing, the heart rate shoots up pretty fast and I just start making mistakes. I need to do some more tests on that though.

I like the chess example. I played chess a lot when I was growing up, and recently I've been playing chess with people in VR. So I often see people get so intimidated by playing chess. Whenever people stop getting nervous about it, I always notice a significant jump in their skill level even if they don't do any training or take any guides. Makes me wonder if the "low performers" were intimidated by it, or if they are just intimidated by challenge in general. Confidence is nice since your mind won't be distracted by second guessing itself all the time.
This panicing is what causes me to not get certain characters into Elite Smash since Elite Smash is the only sort of stakes I have since I don't go to tournaments. I can wreck my friends with my best characters, but when it comes to Elite Smash, I will never get them into Elite Smash because I care about them too much, making my heart pump super hard if I get 1-3 matches away from Elite Smash. Making me play worse until my gsp is terrible. Meanwhile, my bad characters I can't do well with gets into Elite Smash easily because I never expected anything, so I don't get so worked up about it.

Also I feel like I should mention the flow state chart, which I've seen a million times because I love looking into psychology, and I've also seen it being tossed around in competitive discussions in various video games. Since we know higher challenge is likely to cause higher heart rate. "low performers" will feel lots of anxiety, whereas "high performers" are going to bein more of a flowstate. Heart rate is bound to be lower if you're happy/focused compared to being all stressed out and unsure of what's happening.

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On a side note, I've never seen fatality's Falcon get wrecked so hard.