Having trouble with Wolf vs Marth matchup.

[ACAL Squall]

Hi. I'm preparing for an upcoming tourney and I'm having a lot of trouble dealing with Marth. Can I get some tips and some help I improve myself and get on top of the matchup?

 

[The Baron]

Hi. I'm preparing for an upcoming tourney and I'm having a lot of trouble dealing with Marth. Can I get some tips and some help I improve myself and get on top of the matchup?

A) thanks for posting this. Good reminder that I've been slacking and need to update everyone on what is happening with the matchup thread. Also I guess since there hasn't been one for two months, Weekly, matchuos need to start again.
B) Force him to approach with lasers. Don't try and just aggro him dead because any good marth will just kind of swat you down and laugh. Once he approaches, just bait and punish while getting a laser in at every oppurtunity. Marth is a good combo wait for you so capatilize with shine pillars and b-throw tech chases. Don't get grabbed and don't get sent off stage or else you're going to have abad time. Don't go to FOD nor yoshi's story as that sword can make things super congested and lasers will be muh

 

[ACAL Squall]

A) thanks for posting this. Good reminder that I've been slacking and need to update everyone on what is happening with the matchup thread. Also I guess since there hasn't been one for two months, Weekly, matchuos need to start again.
B) Force him to approach with lasers. Don't try and just aggro him dead because any good marth will just kind of swat you down and laugh. Once he approaches, just bait and punish while getting a laser in at every oppurtunity. Marth is a good combo wait for you so capatilize with shine pillars and b-throw tech chases. Don't get grabbed and don't get sent off stage or else you're going to have abad time. Don't go to FOD nor yoshi's story as that sword can make things super congested and lasers will be muh

Thanks. How about counter picks?

 

[redcometchar]

Play it like falcon v marth.

Dreamland, smashville, norfair, skyloft are the best cp stages.
Ps2 green hill and battlefield are neutral.
I'd probably ban Yoshi's first, then FD then warioware, and FOD last.

B throw is actually awesome. adding onto what the baron said, if the di b throw in all of your aerials are garunteed after some percent, nair and up air at 0. if they di away mix up with d throw and get cg. At very high percent you can actually just b throw into side b.

 

[Jake The Preacher]

Marth is actually the perfect weight for Wolf, because the earliest percent he gets put into tumble is, if you don't mess up, a free zero to death. Always ban FD because it's Marth on FD still, and the chaingrab works on Wolf. Always ban FD unless you know your opponent won't chaingrab. Play it kinda like Falco or Falcon, don't get baited or grabbed, shoot that gun, and punish haaaaard

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

Yeah this should probably be posted in the matchup thread, but I'll answer your question anyway.

Lasers and movement are key to fighting against Marth. Lasers will help your approach, but don't rely on them. Dash-dancing outside of Marth's range is the best way to deal with him, Marth can't mindlessly approach you then. Make sure you're spacing for grabs, as that's were he's going to get the most damage. A good Marth will be patient though and wait for you to approach, there are two main ways to deal with this:

1) Shoot a laser, and follow up from there. Depending on whether it hit or not

2) This one is quite important, and that is movement reads. The main way Marth catches you out is by using his deceptively large dash-dance. He weaves out of your attacks and then heavily punishes you via a grab. The way to deal with this is by following the back of his dash-dance and punishing his obvious movement.

Once you get past this part in neutral Wolf has a very easy time punishing Marth. I won't go in depth on punishes as this is the part that you need to focus on at the moment if it's your first few time playing against a Marth.

Stage wise I like to ban FD, Yoshi's or GHZ. For your counterpick I think it depends on how comfortable you are, Dreamland however could be considered a potentially good counterpick for you. Any specific questions just ask me, I don't want to write the guide on Marth just on a Smashboards post lol.

Here's a video of me against a Marth awhile ago, so you can see how punishes work etc, although I've gotten a lot better at it since then.

 

[ACAL Squall]

Yeah this should probably be posted in the matchup thread, but I'll answer your question anyway.

Lasers and movement are key to fighting against Marth. Lasers will help your approach, but don't rely on them. Dash-dancing outside of Marth's range is the best way to deal with him, Marth can't mindlessly approach you then. Make sure you're spacing for grabs, as that's were he's going to get the most damage. A good Marth will be patient though and wait for you to approach, there are two main ways to deal with this:

1) Shoot a laser, and follow up from there. Depending on whether it hit or not

2) This one is quite important, and that is movement reads. The main way Marth catches you out is by using his deceptively large dash-dance. He weaves out of your attacks and then heavily punishes you via a grab. The way to deal with this is by following the back of his dash-dance and punishing his obvious movement.

Once you get past this part in neutral Wolf has a very easy time punishing Marth. I won't go in depth on punishes as this is the part that you need to focus on at the moment if it's your first few time playing against a Marth.

Stage wise I like to ban FD, Yoshi's or GHZ. For your counterpick I think it depends on how comfortable you are, Dreamland however could be considered a potentially good counterpick for you. Any specific questions just ask me, I don't want to write the guide on Marth just on a Smashboards post lol.

Here's a video of me against a Marth awhile ago, so you can see how punishes work etc, although I've gotten a lot better at it since then.

I see. I guess I need to play more patiently against him. My main issue is getting too frustrated with Marth players. He's a really annoying character to play against. Also watching your video makes me really think I need to get my flash shortens on lock. Other than that I see how it's relatively easy to bully him around the stage. I'll keep the matchup practice up and get my laser game stronger.

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

I see. I guess I need to play more patiently against him. My main issue is getting too frustrated with Marth players. He's a really annoying character to play against. Also watching your video makes me really think I need to get my flash shortens on lock. Other than that I see how it's relatively easy to bully him around the stage. I'll keep the matchup practice up and get my laser game stronger.

I was the same for awhile, but realizing once you get close to Marth and stick to the inside of his sword you can really pressure him. Mix your patience with bursts of aggression, don't get in give him one hit and back out, take it all the way.

 

[Mr. PotatoBread]

The marth killer works in PM, but it's harder not to get shield stabbed due to lack of lightshielding.

 

[ACAL Squall]

The marth killer works in PM, but it's harder not to get shield stabbed due to lack of lightshielding.

Never actually attempted the Marth Killer. Is it actually like worth learning? I mostly just need to get flash shortens and blaster wavelands (no idea why I'm having so much trouble with them) but I mean everything helps.

 

[Jake The Preacher]

If it's a free punish then it's always worth learning. Didn't actually think you could do it without light shielding but thismakes for an interesting discovery

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

As long as you angle your shield right and it's big enough it should work. Only do the marth killer when he doesn't have a jump though, or he's trying to sweetspot the ledge.

 

[Mr. PotatoBread]

Don't put too much into learning each individual shorten. The main use of the shorten is to make sure you don't die when you see that the flash might miss. I would suggest just getting the hang of getting the shortest/second shortest shorten so you can save yourself from accidentally side-B-ing.

 

[XF_Awkward]

Don't put too much into learning each individual shorten. The main use of the shorten is to make sure you don't die when you see that the flash might miss. I would suggest just getting the hang of getting the shortest/second shortest shorten so you can save yourself from accidentally side-B-ing.

uuuuhhh I gotta be careful how I put this...

Shortens are waaaay more than just cancelling a missed flash. Getting your shortens down opens up more possibilities for side b follow ups at closer ranges, sweet spotting the ledge from different distances allowing for onstage mixups, preventing suicides or over commitment, hell even ledge cancel swaaaaaaag if you're cocky enough. When you can shorten correctly on command your combo game can be even more deadly, Wolf's recovery game improves ever so slightly, and you can look super cool. With that being said, if you don't feel like you're terribly comfortable with Wolf or Smash in general, wasting your time grinding out shorten tech skill is not going to be as useful as putting that same time into building an understanding of the fundamentals/foundation of your gameplay. This time, in my opinion, is much better spent trying to understand how the flow of a game is effected by movement, threatening hitboxes, frame traps, punishes, footsies, trades, edge guarding etc. and most importantly the ability to adapt to a player on the spot.

PM players are notorious for lacking fundamentals but excelling in their respective character's nuances to try to carry them to victory. If your foundation is solid and you use character specific tech as a tool to carry out a gameplan instead of a crutch to fall back on, your chances of success should be much higher.

Sorry 'bout the rant, but was something on my mind lately.

Also adding to the Marth MU thing, I usually try to put Marth in the air and look for u-air juggles while being directly underneath him. Most Marths will either d-air every time (super punishable move and easy to avoid) or NOT dair at all because they know how laggy the move is (even more free u-air stuff.) Marth gets combo'd pretty easy for Wolf, and personally I think PS2 is a pretty good stage for the MU if you are comfortable there with breaking away in neutral to get your lazers off.