Mario Universe Has the Mario series...given up?

Boo_Destroyer

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It seems that recently, the entire Mario series seem to be stuck in a rut. They're always going on about how Mario is made to evolve with the system technology, but the last time it truly evolved was in 2007 with Super Mario Galaxy. That's still the last time the series did anything "grand", but after that, it all just...stopped.


The spin-offs have turned out so tame and sterile too. Mario Kart 8, as amazing as it is, still hasn't hit that mark in terms of characters. Sure, we got the Koopalings there, but the rest are still the unavoidable babies and all that crap. It still feels like the last time spin-offs tried to do anything interesting with character lineups was in Mario Tennis for N64 where they brought back Daisy somehow and came up with Waluigi. Why can't they do anything more like that again? Why can't we have other characters like E. Gadd playable in these? He was supposed to be in Mario Kart DS, but dammit, Dry Bones. (That reminds me, compare LM2 to the GCN original! But that's another story entirely)

And what the hell happened to all the Galaxy NPCs? Bees, Whittles, and the rest? The Piantas just keep coming, but most of these other guys supposedly failed the test of time. I'm already impressed enough that the Lumas, Rosalina, and even Nabbit have earned their spots as mainstays. 3D World showed a few signs that the Mario series was capable of pushing further - like Bowser's theme park and the Cat Suit - but...the Sprixie Kingdom is nothing but a Mushroom Kingdom clone! Surprise appearance in MT:US aside, the Sprixies only seemed to exist so that Peach could be playable in 3D World. And then there's poor Plessie...

Hell, the RPGs don't feel like RPGs anymore either. Just weird adventure games starring Mario. Even Paper Jam already looks like it's Sticker Star all over again. Remember when they used to have unique and interesting characters like Prince Peasley and Rawk Hawk? Well, we're not gonna get any of that anymore, as they're now so hell bent on using the bare minimum cast of characters. Last time they actually did go above and beyond was Dream Team, but even then, Alphadream had to fight to keep it that way. And the fact that they have to keep using different colored Toads in most places just shows how out of ideas for new characters they really are (not necessarily an RPG thing, mind, but goes for the Mario series in general).

Super Mario Maker, while indeed a new and original concept, is still blatantly derived from the older games. Will the Mario series start taking chances again, or continue playing it safe like they are now? I acknowledge that lore isn't Mario's strongest suit, but it's like they're not even trying anymore.
 

Arcturian

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I disagree with a few of the points here. Mario Kart 8 is not a good example on the sterile nature of Mario, anti gravity has changed the core formula of that series, and added an entirely new gameplay element.

3D World, while not being a creative powerhouse like Galaxy, is the first 3D co-op Mario, which is reason enough to own it and for it to exist. Also, all the Galaxy NPCs are in different galaxies. After Mario's initial visit they're all still going to be in their respective homes.

I can't speak on the RPGs as I don't have enough experience with them.

Finally, Super Mario Maker is not an original concept; rom hacking has existed since the 90s.

I don't think that the series has given up. I think it's running out of steam, and that the existence of Super Mario Maker somewhat proves this. But if there's anything to know about Nintendo, it's that they'll always try to do something different. Sometimes it just takes longer between those innovations.
 

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One thing that should be noted is that Smash Wii U uses as much as 15.7 GB on the Wii U's hard drive, while Mario Kart 8 only uses up to 4.83 GB of memory. When you compare the two games, you'd know that Mario Kart 8 was more than capable of having more content than what it ended up receiving.

Roster choices for the spin-offs have been quite lacking lately as well, as Mario Kart 8 ignored the likes of Diddy Kong, Bowser Jr., and Birdo; all of which were in Double Dash!! and Mario Kart Wii.

However, while Bowser Jr. is in Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash, he's turned completely lazy by having the Koopa Clown Car do all the work; in the past Mario Tennis installments, Bowser Jr. has been more than capable of playing tennis without any kind of machinery. When Bowser Jr. made his debut in Super Mario Sunshine, he spent most of the game utilizing his magic paintbrush, and running all over the place disguised as Mario. But now, he's become very lazy by utilizing robotic technology to take down Mario, which is a role that could've easily been given to generic enemies. Alternatively, a new character could've been made, who would specialize in using high tech equipment to face Mario.
 

Boo_Destroyer

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Also, all the Galaxy NPCs are in different galaxies. After Mario's initial visit they're all still going to be in their respective homes.
http://www.mariowiki.com/File:MP9_3.png

Honey Queen, too. Nobody ever said that they can't be in the Mushroom Kingdom (which is hardly even defined in itself). The Mario series doesn't even have such "rules" to speak of. They just haven't found any opportunities to use them again.

And on that note, what happened to Daisy's Sarasaland? Why keep her around if they're not even gonna bother with that?


Also, SMM is a new thing on Nintendo's part.
 
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Heroine of Winds

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Well, both 3D World & Mario Kart 8 did have some new gameplay mechanics in them, but besides those, I do agree with you that it does seem like the series has given up in terms of adding anything else new in order to innovate. Super Mario Maker did feel like a game that Nintendo is saying "Yeah, we give up on trying to come up with new ideas for Mario, so we're letting you fans make a more creative Mario game for us instead", but I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. Lately, I've given up on Mario myself due to how bland it's gotten over the years. I mean, the fact that Nintendo keeps playing it safe with something like NSMB, I keep wishing they should come up with something amazing for Mario instead of relying on that series instead. With other titles coming out like the new Mario Tennis & Mario & Luigi games, it's still pretty clear to me that they really can't come up with anything new to them. Paper Jam feels like Sticker Star 2.0 to me & I know just how I get salty over that poor excuse for a Paper Mario game.

Right now, I'm hoping the next Mario game in the works would actually add something new to it for once. If not, then I'm still not bothering with the series.
 

finalark

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Isometric Mario has basically been 2D Mario with a Z Axis. 3D World was fun, especially in co-op, but I'm sure glad I wasn't the one who dropped fifty dollars on it.
 

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I think it's like this:

Mario used to be such a versatile franchise. If Mario isn't in Subcon, he can be in Sarasaland. He can be made of paper. He can ride Yoshi and shoot Koopalings with the Super Scope. He can fight Wario or even troll Wario like at the end of the original Wario Land, iirc. He can explore space, lands inhabited by fairies, or a dolphin shape island home to plant people and any other fantastical **** that you needed to be stoned to understand. And that was FUN.

But now, for a series that really never had homogeneity, everything is basically tied down to the blandness of New Super Mario Bros.

I mean, yes the Mario series always had that grass-desert-snow-lava levels. But they usually made it that they were at least unique each time. Take Bowser's Castle. In the original Paper Mario, it was a flying fortress. Which actually didn't have that much lava in it. Or even 3D World, where it was a theme park. Now... Chaos Tower in Mario Party 10 was just NSMB Bowser's castle littered with randomly colored spaces.

And it's not like the gameplay even improved. Paper Jam's battle system looks slow as sin. Ultra Smash might as well be a generic tennis game. And Mario Kart 8's item balance is a joke (getting coins in 9th??? really???)
 
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MarioMeteor

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You have to remember, Mario hasn't seen a main series release since 3D World. You'll be eating your words once Nintendo decides to stop holding back, which they're no doubt doing so they can blow us back with the NX.
 

GreenKirby

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That's no excuse. Just because a game is a spinoff doesn't mean that they don't deserve actual effort put into them
 

Xzsmmc

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I think it's like this:

Mario used to be such a versatile franchise. If Mario isn't in Subcon, he can be in Sarasaland. He can be made of paper. He can ride Yoshi and shoot Koopalings with the Super Scope. He can fight Wario or even troll Wario like at the end of the original Wario Land, iirc. He can explore space, lands inhabited by fairies, or a dolphin shape island home to plant people and any other fantastical **** that you needed to be stoned to understand. And that was FUN.

But now, for a series that really never had homogeneity, everything is basically tied down to the blandness of New Super Mario Bros.

I mean, yes the Mario series always had that grass-desert-snow-lava levels. But they usually made it that they were at least unique each time. Take Bowser's Castle. In the original Paper Mario, it was a flying fortress. Which actually didn't have that much lava in it. Or even 3D World, where it was a theme park. Now... Chaos Tower in Mario Party 10 was just NSMB Bowser's castle littered with randomly colored spaces.

And it's not like the gameplay even improved. Paper Jam's battle system looks slow as sin. Ultra Smash might as well be a generic tennis game. And Mario Kart 8's item balance is a joke (getting coins in 9th??? really???)
Pretty much this. I won't say the series has given up, but it's became bland and sterile.
 

Dan

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However, while Bowser Jr. is in Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash, he's turned completely lazy by having the Koopa Clown Car do all the work; in the past Mario Tennis installments, Bowser Jr. has been more than capable of playing tennis without any kind of machinery. When Bowser Jr. made his debut in Super Mario Sunshine, he spent most of the game utilizing his magic paintbrush, and running all over the place disguised as Mario. But now, he's become very lazy by utilizing robotic technology to take down Mario, which is a role that could've easily been given to generic enemies. Alternatively, a new character could've been made, who would specialize in using high tech equipment to face Mario.
I know. I was a huge advocate for having BJ in Smash, but not at all in the way he turned out. The Clown Car is the character, not BJ.

Just because he used the Clown Car is Smash doesn't mean it needs to be a staple for him from this point forward.
 

Xzsmmc

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I know. I was a huge advocate for having BJ in Smash, but not at all in the way he turned out. The Clown Car is the character, not BJ.

Just because he used the Clown Car is Smash doesn't mean it needs to be a staple for him from this point forward.
SSB can do that to a character. Hell, Kid Icarus got a whole game simply because Pit was in Brawl. Diddy is now glued to his jetpack and guns and Wario's fart jokes are more pronounced now. I really wish they had stuck with paintbrush motif for Jr.
 

Dan

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SSB can do that to a character. Hell, Kid Icarus got a whole game simply because Pit was in Brawl. Diddy is now glued to his jetpack and guns and Wario's fart jokes are more pronounced now. I really wish they had stuck with paintbrush motif for Jr.
Yes.

If character transformations were still a thing I would've love to have seen Bowser Jr./Shadow Mario.
 

finalark

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SSB can do that to a character. Hell, Kid Icarus got a whole game simply because Pit was in Brawl. Diddy is now glued to his jetpack and guns and Wario's fart jokes are more pronounced now. I really wish they had stuck with paintbrush motif for Jr.
Remember how Captain Falcon was stoic and reserved in F-Zero?

Or how calm and low-key Shulk's "I'm really feeling it," line was in Xenoblade?

Or how Roy was most certainly not a fiery hothead in Fire Emblem Binding Blade?

No? That's fine, because neither does 90% of the internet!
 

Freduardo

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SSB can do that to a character. Hell, Kid Icarus got a whole game simply because Pit was in Brawl. Diddy is now glued to his jetpack and guns and Wario's fart jokes are more pronounced now. I really wish they had stuck with paintbrush motif for Jr.
Diddy had the jetpack and guns before brawl. As it appeared in spinoff titles like Mario Power Tennis, baseball, and super strikers. They've been glued to him since DK64
 

Kremling Man

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I don't think it's given up. If it keeps up it's adventures, exploration, and engaging fun. It will be a gem for years to come. Super Mario always delivers.
 

VillageofFitness

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People always, ALWAYS, say this about flagship series. Has it gone sterile? For the time being, perhaps. But the Mario system has always seen VERY popular innovations, usually with the launch of new consoles. (Super Mario 64, Sunshine, Galaxy, 3D World to a lesser extent, Maker)
 

Megakoopax

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In terms of the 2D side scrollers I feel the series is kinda lackluster, Super Mario 3D World is pretty innovative and looks fun, I haven't played much of the newer RPGs so I can't give an opinion on those, but I have played most of the spin-offs and they feel as great as the ones from 2006.
 

TimeChain

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While I admit they should probably look for more innovation in the future, hey, as long as the games are fun, I won't give up on this series any time soon. Some of Mario's newest games are some of the most fun I had in any Mario game period.

Super Mario 3D World had so many crazy and fun levels and I love the fact that you can use power-ups in a 3D Mario game without worrying about a time limit in bigger levels compared to 3D Land. Plus that game is co-op which means more chaos and fun but in 3D! Mario Kart 8 had some of the best designed tracks of Mario Kart game with a gorgeous presentation to boot and the new gravity mechanics and power-ups are pretty fun too! I also love the New Super Mario Bros games. Maybe its just nostalgia, but I think these games are really fun. I love the new moves they've added in the DS game, the co-op and power-ups of the Wii game, and the huge world and levels of the Wii U game (I didn't mentioned the 3DS game cuz nothing about that game really sticks out...).

Heck I even enjoyed the likes of Mario Party 10 and Ultra Smash (yeah...I can't believe I just said that...). Though this is coming from someone who doesn't care and have much experience about Mario Party or any of the Mario Sports games. I thought Mario Party 10 was actually pretty fun! The mini-games are pretty sweet, Bowser Party is intense and frustrating, yet a ton of fun, and although I prefer the old style Mario Party, I see this new gameplay style as a breath of fresh air honestly. Plus, if I ever want to play the old style, I could just go to Amiibo Party! Ultra Smash, while its pretty lackluster in content and it doesn't add anything new to the table (at least, from what I heard), the game looks pretty, controls and plays well, and its a nice distraction at least.

But hey, this is my opinion. If you haven't noticed it already, I'm the type of guy who just wants some quick and easy to learn fun in his video games. Innovation is something I look at too (I mean, if you have a game that's both fun and innovative then we have a winner) but for the most part, as long as the game is fun, I'm cool. Again, that's just me. Maybe I actually have dumb tastes or I'm just a sucker for Mario :p
 

kylexv

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You know, after seeing this:
So a friend of mine got to play Paper Jam most of the way through thanks to a friend lending her a EUR 3ds.

...She says she was bored to tears and got to Bowser's castle in about 8 hours.

And suddenly my expectations for this game sinks yet again.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21257099/paperjam.txt

These are her scrambled thoughts from when she played it.

Says the most enjoyable part was the Koopalings dialog.

When compared to the other M&L games she says it's not even a contender. Not even to Partners in Time, which she doesn't like much to begin with.
I'm finally starting to realize that the Mario spinoffs have absolutely no inspiration behind them anymore, this game, Sticker Star, and the newer Mario Party games being prime examples. All they did was take assets, worlds, and characters from New Super Mario Bros., a game that's already kind of bland as it is. Seriously, what happened to characters outside of the main Mario series, like Count Bleck and Fawful? Why didn't they appear in a game that's supposed to be a crossover between the Mario and Luigi series and the Paper Mario series? We don't want to see carbon copies of characters interacting with each other (although I do admit, it can be creative sometimes). We don't want to see Mr."In almost every new Mario spinoff" as a secret boss. We want to see what made these spinoffs special come back. But all Nintendo is doing is reusing the same crap over and over again. Oh, and if you care enough to want to know who that secret boss is:


Wow.
Just Wow.
...
...
Why isn't this dusty pile of bones never put away?

I'm tired of seeing the same, bland crap every single time.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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I honestly don't know what a lot of you guys are talking about.

Aside from Ultra Smash and Sticker Star, I still find Mario as charming as I did before.

Maybe, you guys are just changing and Mario isn't. No one's really at fault but, hey, it happens.
 

drew1212

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these are just the mario games formula, and they'll probably stay this way. Plus, nintendo doesn't want to get very risky on their BIGGEST franchise
 
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LancerStaff

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Not sure what's up with the Paper Jam hate... Initial buthurt over Sticker Star representation aside, the gameplay and the dialogue are as good as they've ever been. Just that this time it's focused on the main Mario crew instead of OCs. You don't really get a lot of Bowser/Paper Bowser or Junior/Paper Junior interactions if somebody hijacks the plot halfway through, do you? Only complaints so far (outside the very definitely final dungeon) is that Paper Mario himself doesn't add much to battles and that the areas are pretty generic. There's great additions and changes, like Battle Cards and the new overworld abilities such as the ability to run outside of battles. Where the heck has this been the past decade?

MK8 imo is the best Mario Kart. Cat Mario is only just behind the Galaxy games. Mario Party 9 and 10 used like every enemy and NPC introduced thus far... Dunno why people are complaining about the new additions being forgotten when that's not the case. Also they're, yaknow, major shake-ups to the MP series formula after it was stale as heck by 5. Mario Maker's probably the most unexpected thing out of a 2D Mario ever after the NSMB games. Like really guys, if you're not seeing the creativity (outside of the rough patches in PMSS and MTUS, and Nintendo's easy money from NSMB) then there's something wrong with you.
 

Arcadenik

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I like Mario & Luigi Paper Jam. I logged in over 26 hours so far.

It did get me thinking about a new Mario RPG where Mario travels the multiverse and teams up with different versions of Mario from across time and dimensions. That's something I would love to see.

Mario


Dr. Mario - Mario from an alternate timeline where Mario chose to become a doctor instead of a plumber (Dr. Mario)


Baby Mario - Mario from the past (Yoshi's Island)


Paper Mario - Mario from a 2D parallel world (Paper Mario)


Mini Mario - Mario toy from Mario's theme park (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)


Chibi Mario - Mario from a chibi parallel world (Super Mario Kun)


Toon Mario - Mario from a cartoon parallel world (The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!)


Mario Mario - Mario from a dark and gritty parallel world (Super Mario Bros. movie with Bob Hoskins and John Leguizamo)


8-Bit Mario - Mario from a 8-Bit parallel world (Super Mario Bros.)


Imajin - Mario's past life incarnation / ancestor (Yume Kojo: Doki Doki Panic)
 

GreenKirby

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So guys, Nintendo just gave a PRIME example of taking the lazy way with Mario. Not even worthy for it to have its own topic.

Sitcker Star 2! I mean Paper Mario: Color Splash

The same fail attack consuming stickers... I mean cards. So gameplay already takes a hit

The same fail lack of new characters. Get ready for Toads, Toads, and Toads Copy/Pasted. With Paint Bucket Kersti as the exposition fairy

And no EXP for winning a fight



Something's worn out, alright.
 
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LancerStaff

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The sad thing is that the only good thing coming from Intelligent Systems lately is Pushmo.

One team in one part of Nintendo doing a terrible job doesn't mean Mario's gone stale, though.
 

FancySmash

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So guys, Nintendo just gave a PRIME example of taking the lazy way with Mario. Not even worthy for it to have its own topic.

Sitcker Star 2! I mean Paper Mario: Color Splash

The same fail attack consuming stickers... I mean cards. So gameplay already takes a hit

The same fail lack of new characters. Get ready for Toads, Toads, and Toads Copy/Pasted. With Paint Bucket Kersti as the exposition fairy

And no EXP for winning a fight



Something's worn out, alright.
Paper Mario feels empty at this point. Although I don't think the entire Mario series has given up just yet. 3D World was good, and even if it did make me miss original Paper Mario, I'm not gonna lie and say I didn't enjoy Paper Jam.
 

BowserK.Rool

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I just think it should use some of it's old enemies in more games. I want to see Birdo again as an enemy and Wario and Waluigi as main or supporting villains in a Super Mario Bros. game. Daisy returning in a main platforming Mario game would be cool too wether she's playable or not. I love Bowser but I think he needs to be given a rest and let old and new enemies be given a chance for some spotlight.

And yeah, many of the Mario spinoffs latley have been kind of lame especially with the whole character roster thing. Mario Tennis Ultra Smash is the only Mario Tennis game I'm not even going to bother buying, you'd think they'd at least release DLC for it.
 

FancySmash

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I just think it should use some of it's old enemies in more games. I want to see Birdo again as an enemy and Wario and Waluigi as main or supporting villains in a Super Mario Bros. game. Daisy returning in a main platforming Mario game would be cool too wether she's playable or not. I love Bowser but I think he needs to be given a rest and let old and new enemies be given a chance for some spotlight.

And yeah, many of the Mario spinoffs latley have been kind of lame especially with the whole character roster thing. Mario Tennis Ultra Smash is the only Mario Tennis game I'm not even going to bother buying, you'd think they'd at least release DLC for it.
Wait, isn't Birdo friends with Yoshi now? Does that make them a hero or villain?
 

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The spin-offs are certainly lacking but, from a econmonical standpoint, MK and the main series do very well within thsemlves with extremely high sales, great reviews, and awards. This translates to Nintendo as "Hey this work" and so they will continue until the numbers show it doesn't anymore.

Anyways, I'd like to see more 3D Mario games like 64, Sunshine, and Galaxy. I also wouldn't mind seeing a possible game featuring Peach, Rosalina, Daisy, and maybe even bringing Pauline or Captain Syrup out of into the spotlight so they can rescue Mario, Luigi, and Toad (and Wario) for a change.
 
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BowserK.Rool

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Wait, isn't Birdo friends with Yoshi now? Does that make them a hero or villain?
Only in Mario Tennis 64 and Mario Kart Double Dash as far as my knowledge goes. Who knows, maybe she gets along with Yoshi but not the plumbers and the princess?


The spin-offs are certainly lacking but, from a econmonical standpoint, MK and the main series do very well within themselves with extremely high sales, great reviews, and awards. This translates to Nintendo as "Hey this work" and so they will continue until the numbers show it doesn't anymore.

Anyways, I'd like to see more 3D Mario games like 64, Sunshine, and Galaxy. I also wouldn't mind seeing a possible game featuring Peach, Rosalina, Daisy, and maybe even bringing Pauline or Captain Syrup out of into the spotlight so they can rescue Mario, Luigi, and Toad (and Wario) for a change.
True, although the rosters aren't always great, some of them are still fun to play.

Same here.
 

Evil George Washington

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Pretty much this. I won't say the series has given up, but it's became bland and sterile.
Agreed. Mario needs to distance it self away from 'galaxy' and 'world' and just be land or something. It's going to big now.
 

Jenna Zant

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They've definitely given up on Mario Party. Mario Party used to be soooo good. All the minigames were engaging (not necessarily fun, but engaging.) The boards were great. Nowadays, it's just that stupid car thing. Mario Party DS was truly one of the last good Mario Party game.
 

LancerStaff

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I vastly prefer 9 and 10's minigames over the rest of the series. I don't mind the car, but I wish that for 10 they would of came up with something else for the main party mode or at least brought back traditional boards with the car.
 

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They've definitely given up on Mario Party. Mario Party used to be soooo good. All the minigames were engaging (not necessarily fun, but engaging.) The boards were great. Nowadays, it's just that stupid car thing. Mario Party DS was truly one of the last good Mario Party game.
The first Mario Party was awful, all because of the Control Stick rotation minigames. Even against easy CPUs, it was nearly impossible to ever win Tug o' War. Mario Party 2 did fix things up a bit, but it still had its problems, especially with the Mini-Game Coaster.
 

Jenna Zant

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The first Mario Party was awful, all because of the Control Stick rotation minigames. Even against easy CPUs, it was nearly impossible to ever win Tug o' War. Mario Party 2 did fix things up a bit, but it still had its problems, especially with the Mini-Game Coaster.
Well, yeah, the first one was pretty bad. But 2 through 8 are all really good.
 

Darkpit54

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The games are still fun, but they're all the same. And I agree, the car pretty much ruined Mario Party.
 

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But now, for a series that really never had homogeneity, everything is basically tied down to the blandness of New Super Mario Bros.
This upsets me. Instead of growing up alongside us, Miyamoto intends to keep it bland and simple. Business wise it is a smart strategy but it does not make *me* happy as a consumer of Mario. For example, I am skeptical of Paper Mario: Colors (or whatever it is), but I am keeping my eye on it.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

Old rivalries live on!
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
22,133
Location
Mushroom Kingdom
NNID
TPitch5
3DS FC
5327-1637-5096
It always feels like the law has to be that only the Toads can be good guys. The days where neutral Goombas and Koopa Troopas existed seem to be long gone now.
 
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