- Jan 9, 2015
This thread is a discussion to Snake's matchups to all 41 characters in the current 3.5 (3.6 when it comes out).
1. Snake's neutral vs _____
2. Snake's punishes vs _____
3. What stages to go vs ______
4. What stages to ban vs ______
Even those who have experience against Snake, feel free to add input on your characters here. It is very much appreciated. We will start off with the common match-ups.
1. Snake's neutral vs _____
2. Snake's punishes vs _____
3. What stages to go vs ______
4. What stages to ban vs ______
Even those who have experience against Snake, feel free to add input on your characters here. It is very much appreciated. We will start off with the common match-ups.
vsOkay, so I play a lot of Foxes and a fair amount of other spacies and I do relatively well so here we go:
Fox: Snake does really well against Fox if you know what you're doing. Fox's main strength tends to be his horizontal combo ability as well as his fast ground and air speed, so the emphasis should be on limiting that strength and forcing him to come in. his can be attained trough productive and safe use of mines, c4, grenades, and mortars. Keep exploding all over the place and STAY GROUNDED. Fox has so many great aerial combos and many ways to stop Snake from coming down easily, and because of Snake's terrible aerial mobility, Fox can get multiple up air strings together and cause massive damage. So keep the Fox out the best you can and encourage him to approach.
When Fox approaches, you have a few options to punish this. You can shield grenade if the Fox really enjoys pressuring your shield, which thereby discourages his shield pressure, you can also Cypher OOS if their shine pressure is predictable (any high aerial can be punished by it) and that will then lead into fair at higher percents (so a techchase) or nair into grab at lower percents or even a free C4 stick into regrab if they're bad; you can predict his approach choice (Foxes tend to like spacing their aerials) and wavedash back and punish with a grab or a tilt, or you can force him to keep chasing you, all he while utilizing your traps and mines to limit his movement and punish him if he slips up. Your goal in all of this is to get a frame advantage on Fox so that you can start launching him.
This is where Snake's strengths start to really come into play, as Snake is able to zero-to-death spacies more easily than any other character in the game through a variety of means. Naturally, he has the chaingrab which works on Fox from 30% up to around 80%, and from there Snake is freely able to stick a C4, up air juggle into back air, or even weak up air into fair spike. The chaingrab can also be mixed up into u-tilts (which you can regrab out of at lower percents), weak u-airs, and techchases where you can get hard punishes on tech reads. It's combo city on spacies for Snake, and you really only need one or two openings to get things going. Just be wary that lower percents will probably require tech reads (jabs and f-tilts help a lot here). Snake can also techchase Fox via downthrow, but it's relatively tight timing and demands attention and practice to be successful at it, but it's a great follow-up if the Fox DIs onto a platform.
Speaking of which, platforms are your friends more often than not. Snake has a lot of good options for covering platforms through his mines and c4s which can limit DI to some extent, or be used for great finishers. Snake can also simply WD onto the platforms and start a down throw DI trap since the tech rolls are far longer than the platforms are and Snake can cover every tech option with a standing grab or a turn grab. the only thing to watch for would be getup attacks and quick stands (studying these animations to learn the variations does loads to help). If the Fox does go to the platforms, you can rack up damage with down throw techchases until he's at a KO percent (either through a top platform u-tilt or a back air off stage depending on DI)—both of which are way easier to get thanks to the platforms' height and the general freedom to do whatever you want to a Fox out of down throw.
Should the back air fail, though, there are a few things to consider as well while edgeguarding. Depending on percent, you should be freely able to cover every on stage recovery with C4 and mine and KO the Fox, which means he has to try sweetspotting the ledge. Now Snake's back air has loads of active hitbox frames, and ledge invincibility is really a wonderful thing as well. Snake can also ledge drop rising back air from ledge and regrab it with relative ease. Make good use of that. Another curious thing, if they aren't at KO percent, is that Cypher outright beats illusions. Every single time I've cyphered and a Fox or Falco has side-b'd into me, they've gotten hit and I've been safe. It might still be a ledge invincibility thing, but nonetheless abuse that as well. Cypher hitboxes combo into every single aerial so if you're really good, I'm sure you could reverse Cypher from ledge into fair spike for a super swag KO. If not, back air is just as good and probably a bit safer as well. Snake really needs to grab ledge vs. Spacies, though. His tilts just don't cover enough space and he's too slow to properly react to high firefoxes.
To reverse the situation, I've found as well that Fox has some trouble to Shine spike Snake if the Snake can time the Cypher well. A lot of the time, I've had a Fox try to shinespike me just as I start my Cypher, and the two hits trade and our hitstun is relatively the same, so when I Cypher again, they get caught and suddenly I'm edgeguarding them instead of them edgeguarding me! It's something I need to look into more, but it's a situation that arises in a lot of my games vs. Fox, so it's worth noting as well. Besides that, be good about sweetspotting the ledge and also spacing your Cypher just far enough away that Fox's higher hitboxes still don't hit you. The ledgegrab box on Cypher Release is actually pretty far: take a look at it and realize how close you don't need to be. Don't be too afraid to recover high as well if you notice they choose to back air a lot—grenade trades with it and you'll get back if you're smart about how you come down.
The problems really start arising when the Fox catches on to how dangerous it is to approach Snake and they decide to sit back and camp you. In these situations, I've found that I need to feign an approach and figure out how they plan on stuffing that approach. Then I figure out how to stuff that reaction and punish it as if they'd approached me with it. Controlling the space under platforms becomes more important in this scenario as that is the prime spot for spacies to laser camp. Staying grounded also loses some of its value in these situations, so if you really want the win, I'd say platform camp the fox by controlling the platforms well and always covering your landings. Use wavebounce grenades and C4s to avoid up airs and back airs and punish them as hard as possible when they whiff something.
Stages I'd Counterpick:
Aggro-Fox: Dreamland, Battlefield, Norfair, Lylat Cruise, Distant Planet, Pokemon Stadium 2
Camp-Fox: Fountain of Dreams, Battlefield, Smashville, Green Hill Zone, Yoshi's Island
At the most campy level, the matchup is probably 50:50, but as soon as the Fox starts to overcommit, the matchup shifts in Snake's favor.
Professor Pro vs Leffen- BEAST 5 Winner's Semis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE0OwFaFojs
Professor Pro vs Armada BEAST 5 Losers Finals Game 2 & 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjdPZgqCtv8
vs (or falco 2)This matchup is a dangerous matchup for Snake because a) Lasers vs ground mobility b) Shine puts you in a very very bad position aka the air c) Snake's ridiculously easy combo weight. Because of this, most Falcos will try to approach Snake... that's where you strike them. Let's start of with
1) Fighting the bird: Snake's safe option is staying on the ground but it gets interrupted by Falco's lasers because it nullifies Snake's mines, grenades, tranqs, even his dashdances and leads into combos on Snake on which you want to avoid as much as possible. how to avoid these pesky lasers? Your ridiculously low duck... meaning their lasers won't touch you at all...meaning they WILL approach you. What Falco will most likely do is laser then try to Dair you. while ducking you can powershield them into a grab into chain grab (from 40%) or cypher oos (<40%) to nair to grab to chain grab. Or if they are mid-range, you can powershield their laser into DACUS---> sticky or fair if close to the edge. You can also d-tilt --> grab at about 50%. If you are on a platform stages, you MUST bring him on the platform because that's what you WANT him to be for the jump stick or the d-throw tech chase shenanigans. Lay mines on ground and grenades/C4 on platforms in case he tries to stuff you in more ways than one. Final Destination is actually a good stage for Snake because there are more combo opportunities and lasers aren't a constant threat to Snake (super low crouch ftw). It platformless stage won't hinder your combos and
2) Chasing the bird: Like what @ cisyphus mentioned, Snake's combo game against spacies is very good and can often more than not, lead to a stock. The famous saying "Falco spawns at death percent" applies in this situation. A grab, cypher oos, even edgeguard/gimping will lead to a stock. You can u-throw chain grab Falco from 40-80% then to a stick. you can DACUS---> f-air spike them. You can tech chase tranq him to grab (and yes you can grab him out of his sleep animation unlike the other two ). And of course d-throw platform-chasing works as well, and most probably the easiest way to rack up damage considering it does a whopping 14% (logic anybody? lol)
3) Biting the bird: Let's talk about Snake's most used finisher in the game... the C4. As much as we love that finish, it is quite "weak" in a sense of a finisher to large stages, aka Dreamland, FD. I would use the C4 more on stages that have a low ceiling because Falco (and friends...and wolf) are fast fallers, killing them off top is very difficult and requires a pretty high %(which is easily attained by comboing). In PS2, a stage where the ceiling is low, Falco has to be above 120% near the ceiling for the sticky to kill...slightly lower if you're on a platform, if 70%, you can u-throw-->u-air--> C4 kill-off. In a big stage aka Dreamland, FD, YI brawl, it takes time to finish him off. Usually a tranq--> f-air will finish them off/create an edge guard opportunity at 80%.
Speaking of edge guarding, Falco has a short firebird(slow startup) and phantasm. So it is easier to telegraph because of the recovery options. Don't be afraid to f-air on their firebird, because they won't be able to make it anyway. As for the phantasm, if they aim for the ledge, you can either wavedash ff to ledge or f-tilt combo him outta here assuming you hit him with the second hit.
Stages I counterpick: Pokémon Stadium 2, Fountain of Dreams, Final Destination, Smashville, Battlefield
Stage I ban: Greenhill Zone, Warioware, YI melee, YI brawl
Professor Pro vs Mango BEAST 5 Winners Finals https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YjN1uOqPCA
Professor Pro vs Mango BEAST 5 Grand Finals https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4i0VqtIXXM
vsPlay Wolf almost exactly the same as Falco, just with the knowledge that his recovery is more dangerous to edgeguard because of the side-b sweetspot. a lot of his combos are exactly the same, and if you notice the Wolf doesn't double shine to beat CC, you can CC his shines all day and punish with cypher into nair grab. Be wary of dash attack spacing, SD his NAirs, and DI his DAirs. Those are Wolf's most major approach options/combo starters. Besides that, he combos like any other spacie except you get to take everything to a higher percent. The only thing to change is stage select. Smaller stages with higher ceilings are much better because, like Fox, he has an upward kill (side-B) and you would be surprised on how often it hits Snake.
Stages I counterpick: FoD, Battlefield, Greenhill zone, Norfair
Stages to avoid: YI melee, Pokemon Stadium 2, Warioware
vsSnake vs. Marth:
This matchup sucks. Pick Sheik.
Kidding. This is probably Snake's worst matchup, though. He has trouble getting any sort of combo string on Marth, meanwhile Marth combos the piss out of him. A lot of Snake's usual tactics can be handled recklessly by Marth and still be safe. For example: Shielding a grenade against Marth on a Platform is completely unsafe, as Marth can use Utilt's disjoint to detonate the grenade safely, and probably have you in shield stun long enough to punish. Snake's recovery is completely defunct because of Marth's down air: when Snake is hit out of up B, he lets go of Cypher, giving it a hitbox; this hitbox hits Marth out of the long endlag of down air, allowing a safe recovery from practically anywhere off stage. Marth's grab also outranges Snake's, and Marth generally has better movement and is slippery enough on the ground to easily detonate mines if he knows how.
Getting a C4 on Marth is absolutely essential, in my mind. His floatiness is the only real weakness that Snake is able to exploit. U-tilt into C4 will KO Marth at 70-90% depending on the stage (and there's lots of cute setups for u-tilt). A u-throw also works at around 10% more. Marth generally has trouble coming down, so juggling Marth and getting him about you is really useful. F-tilt can stuff grabs, u-tilt can stuff aerials. Snake's crouch CAN go under Marth's grab if he's spacing out your tilts, but if the Marth is getting super close with grabs, the innermost hitbox will graze Snake's head and Marth gets the grab for it. Learn the hitboxes Marth has and how to DI out of them.
On Marth's throws specifically:
U-throw: you can jump out of the u-tilt at lower percents.
F-throw: DI down and away AND buffer roll away. Marths love to use the landing lag you get from this (since you don't get put in tumble) to regrab you, but you can roll or spotdodge and catch them for it.
B-throw: DI down and away and hit the tech and roll away from Marth. He's looking to tipper the tech in place/missed tech or grab the roll in.
D-throw: Same thing as B-throw essentially. remember that this throw sends you BEHIND marth, so DI Behind to get away.
A lot of these grabs have exact opposite escape DI, so Marth can mix the throws up on you and it's really nasty. Pay attention to which throws he is doing and when he's doing them and try to stay ahead of the mixups.
Pay attention to how the Marth tries to edgeguard. Some stand on the stage and some grab ledge. Either way approach ledge cautiously and never be predictable. It tends to be better to go high vs. Marth just because of how relevant his hitboxes are to stuffing Cypher. back air, forward smash, down air, f-tilt, d-tilt, and maybe even counter are all extremely good options against Snake. BND claims that you can react to Marth's down air tries by dropping early and using a C4 to get back that way. If you don't have a C4 planted, that's worth trying but feels unorthodox to me. If you have one planted, I'd say burn it while Marth is still on stage. it puts him in a bad spot regardless, be it teching or in shieldstun. Having a stock is better than having an easy kill setup.
As for combos, I find that using the weak hitboxes of aerials works really well vs. midweight floaties like Marth. Think of how spacies get strung by up airs really easily, and it's the same kind of idea. You can also get soft back air to strong back air and really trick someone up. Cypher also provides very interesting opportunities given its rather long hitstun. I have to investigate a lot of this more, as the strategy I've tended to favor vs. Marth is to wall him out with grenades and mines until I get a chance to go in.
Edgeguarding Marth should be relatively easy: mines force him to try to sweetspot the ledge, so just plant a mine and grab ledge. Even if you don't KO marth with the mine (likely, given his floatiness), you still get the damage and a positional advantage. This is one matchup where you really can be pretty braindead in your edgeguard and still get it.
Professor Pro vs Armada BEAST 5 Losers Finals Game 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjdPZgqCtv8
Leon vs Charby 47FOS WSF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smr_gxWMInY
vsThis character is a really hard to deal with if you don't know the matchup. If you do know, you will be all over her like peanut butter and jelly. Zelda's specials (B) can counter most of Snake's neutral game.
Farore's Wind and Din's Fire > Mines
Transform > C4 (it drops)
Nayru's Love > grenade toss/ tranqs/ mortar (u-smash)
From the looks of it, Zelda has the advantage over Snake which means it's a hard matchup for him... It's actually is opposite. How do you deal with a character that slaps away your projectiles like silly putty? Let me tell you
One way to deal with Zelda is to get up and personal with her.... meaning be aggressive.... aggressively smart. Keeping distance puts you in a disadvantage which Zelda WANTS you to do. She has Nayru to protect her from harm and she has an easier time throwing out Dins. What if you jump over Dins? Snake's aerial mobility is very poor, he has a 5 frame jump squat, meaning he is super slow in the air, meaning if Zelda baits your jump, you will be combo'd and take ALOT of unnecessary %. Go close and pressure her using jab, cypher, crouch, dtilt, f-tilt. Wavedance to weave out of her moves and to bait other moves because they have endlag. Crouching helps to whiff grabs, spark jab, f-smash, but be careful, her d-smash is the fastest d-smash in the game, it will be hard to react, so wd or crawl back. F-tilt is one of the best moves to use against Zelda because at low % (40-57 %) it can lead to another grab. 60% going airbourne should lead to a sticky and 80% should lead to an u-tilt (can be detonated into a kill if stuck prior)
ALWAYS stay on the ground and apply pressure mid-close range. Her aerials will always beat yours (learned that the hard way), you are also combo food to her, and don't use projectiles yet. If she is the type of Zelda that loves to teleport (up-b) here's some fun facts. There are two types of transform, regular teleport and telecancelling. Regular teleport will take longer, meaning you can f-air spike her, u-air her, u-smash her. It also goes full distance(a pretty large distance) and it has a hitbox which sends you in weird directions. You can run towards her initial startup to avoid getting hit and punish with tranq--> DACUS or C4. Her telecancelling reduces the startup (still vulnerable), "spin" animation is a bit faster and she can control when she will appear within the distance and she can act out of it. The drawback to this is no hitbox, meaning it can be easily punished by grabs, stickies, cypher if you can predict where she will land....otherwise shield, and when she appears near you, grab her, cypher, or d-air. Nayru has 2 variations, ground and aerial. Her aerial has a smaller hitbox and is vulnerable to b-air. Her ground version is bigger. To deal with nayru, you only need to shield it to which you can grab her. If hit, DI away down and tech away (she's pretty slow). Careful though, she can land cancel her aerial--> ground so keep this in mind when challenging nayru. D-throw is probably you favourite throw against her because it racks up damage fast and it's easier to chase/DACUS her.
Where does this all lead to? Getting her above you. Just like you, she has poor aerial mobility, both horizontal and vertical wise. This is the time where you pull out the projectiles. u-smash her but angle it forward and backward (forward is more safer) because she may nayru to "reflect" it, which you will respond with another u-smash, u-air or f-air if a little closer. Plant mines in conjuction with u-smash maybe DACUS. To this she will most likely respond with up-b. Punish her with the appropriate things said above. Edgeguarding her is only simple if she uses her default Farore which can lead to a f-air or b-air. You can also grab ledge as option as well but Zelda will most likely Dins the ledge to prevent you from hogging her.
Let's talk about transform. She will use that to get the C4 off her, most likely at low %. But at higher %, she may only transform if you are recovering to stage, which I think is a free recovery. When you see her turn (different times of transform to different consoles) immediately detonate it. This will put her in a bad position (above you) and you are free to punish and play hackey sack with her before she hits ground. But if you manage to sticky--> grab--> u-throw--> detonate, it kills at a low %. in PS2, it kills at 85% and over, at FD it kills at 90s. u-throw to sticky only works till 50s, otherwise she can respond with nayru and knock you away.
b-throw- DI away and tech away at low percent; DI up and towards at high %
d-throw- DI behind and tech away
u-throw- DI diagonally away; jump at low%
f-throw- DI down away and tech; missed DI at high % can lead to a f-air
You would most likely choose stages with low ceilings but more horizontal space (especially horizontal space). Platforms are a double-edged sword because she can n-air or b/f-air you. And short horizontal blastzones pose a threat to you. As in she can kill you at 70% from a b- throw in Warioware.
Stages I choose: Pokemon Stadium 2, Smashville, Battlefield (I love this stage lol), Norfair, Distant Planet.
Stages I avoid: Warioware, YI melee, Greenhill zone. (basically anywhere with short horizontal blastzones)
vsI play a squirtle 2-3 times a week who is very close to beating our PR members down here in AZ when he can actually make tourneys.
Pros: Light and not too floaty (still some but better then most light matchups)
Cons: VERY annoyingly small (2 frame very strong d-tilt, hard to grab, if the squirtle knows how to use his movement options it can get rough), can get rid of mines with water gun, good aerial game (f-throw -> dropzone fair-> fair seems automatic with no DI and is very rough to come back from).
squirtle has bad matchups to disjointed hitbox characters (marth, link, etc) due to his t rex limbs but makes up for it in ground maneuverability. i generally try to play a cat and mouse sort of game with alot of grenade shield drops and just grenade shenanigans in general. you have to avoid being in the air against squirtle (like most characters). capitalizing off of a grenade knockup converts into alot of my combos. while crouching and in withdraw (side-b) all your grabs/tranq/jabs will miss. Squirtle dies at a low %, moreso 77% and over on the select stages.
I think Squirtle wins, and he wins hard if you don't play carefully. Squirtle's air and ground mobility combined with his small size and projectiles make mines basically a moot point for you. Good squirtles will be shellshifting and crouching and crawling all the time vs. Snake as well, which makes for a really hard matchup on the ground. All that said, Snake can't stay grounded vs. Squirtle. He has no real advantage except crouch cancels, which REALLY is the problem Squirtle has against any character. None of his moves have very high knockback outside of his Smashes, which tend to be telegraphed and counter-able. I could see CC crawl tilt or CC f-tilt being really good options against Squirtle, since they both pop him up at set knockback values and lead into grabs or C4s. I prefer to camp platforms and force Squirtle to jump, though. From there, you can set up traps that are more inconspicuous and difficult to avoid and abuse Squirtle's really short range. Naturally, you want a stage with platforms, especially against a character as light and floaty as Squirtle: platforms influence his KO%s far more than other characters because of those two factors. The other thing about Squirtle is that his tech rolls are TERRIBLE. You need to be able to tech chase Squirtle and the matchup quickly loses its advantage. Down throw especially is brutal for Squirtle because of how little damage he needs to take before getting KO'd and the sheer amount of time you have to react to his options (+15 frames easy). I imagine Squirtle as a ground-based Jigglypuff, free to move whenever and probably throwing out a safe hitbox at the same time. The difference is that Snake gets SO much off of grabs on Squirtle. The trick is just getting one: use nair and dair wisely and techchase at every opportunity. 60:40 Squirtle. Pick small stages to constrain his movement. Pick platforms to make him rely less on his movement.
DI his forward throw away, and down throw up (down thrown is his kill throw). He never really throw me with up/back but I imagine just down or away.
Squirtle generally has poor options when directly above you but can outrun you horizontally (aerially) so platform techchases are your friend. my favorite maps v squirtle:
do go: generally neutral and blastzones give space to recover from squirltes gimp game, platforms give you lots of options.
no go: nowhere to go against squirtle and generally harder to recover from.
[dreamland] maybe: a little big but patience will play off v squirtle.
note on edgeguarding: squirtle up-b has a hitbox the size of bowser (feels like it). a mine near the edge will just get destroyed while a grenade/stage c4 just off the edge might work if he doesnt sweet spot. runoff bair can work out as well
just learn how not to get bubble cheesed and not get fooled by his smaller size.
Lucario's ridiculous combo game vs Snake's ridiculous weight = a whole lotta pain. This matchup is actually not that bad for Snake because of one move: Grenades. These things will keep you and Lucario at bay because he NEEDS to touch you to get things started. How do you approach a Lucario? You don't! You force an approach from him. Approaching Lucario is what he wants you to do. Create obstacles that force Lucario to move, and when the time is right punish him for it. Let's talk about his aura in neutral. Without aura, his neutral game is pretty bad against Snake if you know how to play keep-away and forcing a commitment bait can grant you a punish. You can actually stick/tranq Lucario during his down-b, I believe near the end where he becomes vunerable but still in the animation and at the startup. And spot dodge is your best friend in this matchup(@ cisyphus can you confirm how fast Snake's spot dodge is?). Lucario's OHC system will only work if he hits you or your shield, granting him another move and gaining aura. If his attack misses, he has a noticeable endlag, the only move you gotta watch out for is his jab because it's a 3-hit combo. With aura however, it grants Lucario loads of options, more particularly double team cancel where he can cancel double team into a move ( can attack during invincibility as well) at the expense of an aura charge. He will DTC into an u-tilt to start a combo. Bait out an aura charge to keep things in your favour and as usual STAY GROUNDED.
Lucario's weight is a little more on the "floaty" side (I believe heavier than Mewtwo but lighter than Luigi) but with a little more weight so chaingrabs end pretty early, about mid 30%, on which you can stick him till about 78%. Due to his floatiness, it's easier to kill him in low ceiling (85% with detonation). You can u-throw to f-air till 70%. His recovery is really long, but has a good landlag on which you can waveland on stage to stick and grab. If he uses aura, his choice is most likely an air dodge, jump and immediately so for an on-stage b-air or d-air while you have invincibility, other wise, refresh yourself and waveland onstage safely.
Stay close to center stage as much as possible and don't get caught near the ledge at low %, it results in d-tilt to f-air---> force palm spike. Funny enough, Lucario won't edgeguard Snake from far, only near the edge on which he will either b-air or d-air to which you will DI up and towards the stage cypher to grenade hold. Another option is to wall tech his attack to b-reverse into stage. Always SDI his attacks, most likely diagonally up and away.
Stages I choose: Dreamland, Final Destination, Smashville, Distant Plant
Basically more room to move with higher chance at survival
Stages I ban: Warioware, YI melee, Greenhill
Small stages limits your movement and grants Lucario a hit on you