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Guide to Sheik's grab game

Journal

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 21, 2015
Messages
126
Hey everyone, so I thought it would be useful to get a guide going for Sheik's grab game, and I wanted to start getting the discussion rolling. I'll be editing informative responses into the OP.

D-Throw to B-Throw Mixup:
So we all know that this basically makes a fifty-fifty mixup for regrabs, but I was wondering if someone could help me fill in a few key areas.

Who does it work against, and at what percentage? For example, it doesn't work against spacies for regrabs without tech chases, and for super floaty characters (need some help filling in which ones) it shouldn't work either.

What DI are you looking for when deciding which throw to use? Basically, bad DI on either throw will lead to a regrab, but if you are expecting ______ DI, which way should you throw?

What are some natural follow ups for the different throws?

What's the use of up throw?
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
So far as the question of super floaty characters and super heavy characters, the data in the "U-throw Combos" section of my Snake MU Data Spreadsheet should answer which characters are way too floaty to combo off of throws. I say this based on my experiences playing Sheik as well as my comprehensive sense of Snake's throw to ascertain the similarities between a poorly DI'd Sheik down/back throw and Snake's up throw. Most of the followups seem relatively similar until higher percentages where Snake's launches much higher than Sheik's (I reckon it's a matter of Knockback Growth). I can link this data specifically if you wish, but it's easier to just say that the super-floaty, don't-even-hope-to-combo characters would be:
Jigglypuff, Kirby, Mewtwo, Peach, Zelda, Ice Climbers, ROB, Samus, Ivysaur, Luigi, Mario, Squirtle, Ness, and Olimar. This is roughly ordered by how positive I am of their difficulty as well. These are all characters who cannot be regrabbed by Snake past 10% (i.e. after 1 throw). You might add Dedede to this list depending on how much weight dependency matters with these throws, although I don't recall having much trouble comboing Dedede with Sheik. idk.
Conversely, super heavy (i.e. fastfalling) characters are:
Fox, Falco, Wolf, Falcon, Roy, Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong, Lucas, and maybe Sheik/Link/Ganon. This is a bit harder to decide where to draw the line since the lower ends of the spectrum (ZSS, Diddy, Lucas...) are all relatively close to the same combo weight as mid weight characters, but are distinctly more susceptible to followups for Snake at higher percentages.

As for which DI you should match each throw to, Down Throw beats DI in and Back Throw beats DI out. So say you grab someone facing to the right. If you expect them to DI to the right, you would back throw since that would be DI away from Sheik. Conversely, if you expect them to DI to the left, you would down throw since that would be DI into Sheik.

I don't know how much Up Throw has changed (if at all) in Project M, but it's primarily a niche mixup tool on fastfallers in Melee. On low-lying platforms, you could use it to mindgame them to DI onto the platform to escape and then tech read with DACUS or you can follow up with an aerial or a waveland into a launcher or grab, or if they DI into the center, I tend to f-tilt or u-tilt them into an aerial. That's the primary application I utilize U-Throw for in Melee and have some pretty solid success with it when I'm playing well.

Followups out of throws include:
- Dash attack (correct DI)
- Boost grab (correct DI in situations)#
- Techchase (any DI, but particularly correct DI)
- Dash -> tilts (Dash, press Down to cancel your dash state, then perform your tilt)
- any tilt (bad DIs)^
- jab (bad DIs)^
- Down Smash (bad DIs)
- WD -> normal (tilt/jab) or down smash (neutral DIs)
- JC/standing/Pivot grab (bad DIs)
- Up Smash (either DACUS or JC) (bad DIs)
- SH aerial (bair/fair/nair) (bad DIs)

#you can also pivot boost grab to throw off their DI intuitions even more since it's based on which way Sheik is facing to some degree and they may react to the throw before they react to your direction.
^these are all mixups to force a regrab

You can do basically anything off of bad DI honestly. Getting regrabs is mostly about reacting to their DI and/or positioning yourself to techchase (i.e. wavedash or foxtrot toward them).
 
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DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
Your intuition is bad; there aren't any characters in the game that can escape combos out of sheik's DI mix-up if they miss the correct DI. Her throws have extremely low endlag, and she has quick vertical movement and quick aerials, snake is worse in all those areas
 
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cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
I never said there were characters that could escape with bad DI? I said exactly the opposite lol. All I did was list characters that escape Snake's throw easily. I concede that Iwasn't specific enough: I was thinking of the floatiest of characters in the sense that, considering every DI, they have an easier time escaping follow-ups than fast-fallers and require more precision on the part of the Sheik.
 
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DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
that's not really true though either; with good DI on dthrow she can CG floaties, so in the case of floaties, they want to DI in and take the aerial follow-up to avoid CGs. In fact the only characters she doesn't get free follow-ups on most of the time at most percents are spacies+falcon; who can just not DI and always get a tech chase situation for either throw; and the ones the require the most precision for a true follow-up regardless of DI are semi-FFers who you can sometimes follow-up with good DI, sometimes not, depending on which throw and what percent, and if their DI is good then you will require high precision to follow-up if it's even possible. Worth noting of course that good DI all the time is strictly impossible because of her mix-up, so you'll eventually lead into a non-throw based combo which can be more reliable on those fall speeds. Anybody else can be followed up regardless of DI off one of the throws or both throws, although at low percents the follow-up isn't very good, like a weak dash attack or something
 
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