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(Guide) Marth CC to Techchase Missed Tech

Discussion in 'Marth' started by xXadevs2000Xx, Apr 16, 2016.

  1. xXadevs2000Xx

    xXadevs2000Xx
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    Smash Apprentice

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    Introduction
    It's common knowledge now that Marth's jab reset is simply not very good. Opponents can SDI out of it easily and buffer their tech option as well.
    This got me thinking about ways to cover all of their options on reaction, including kill moves such as Dolphin Slash and pivot fsmash.

    I realized that when Marth is under 96%, he can CC (Crouch cancel) the getup attack and get a really big punish for it! Some of which you'll see in this thread!

    Note: Regular getup attacks can be CC'd to 97% in NTSC and 96% in PAL. However, Jigglypuff's getup attack has another 2 damage at the first part, which means that hers one can only be CC'd to 74% in NTSC and 73% in PAL

    To use these setups, simply crouch next to your opponent when they miss a tech and your percent is below 96%.... however, don't stand TOO close to them otherwise you'll get hit by both hitboxes of getup attack when you only want to be hit by one.

    Okay, now that we know the setup for all of the punishes below, we need to get something out of the way first!
    There are actually two getup attacks depending on whether your opponent is facing the floor or the sky. This makes no difference to most characters, just keep in mind that the first hitbox will always come out where his feet were during missed tech (Falco) , so you should put yourself there if possible.
    Getting hit by the first hitbox instead of the second allows you more time to set up your punish, however, all of the ones below work regardless of which hitbox you are struck by.
    Last but not least, I am using Falco as the dummy character because of his long techroll and roll after missed tech, experiment with other characters! Some of the pivot fsmashes can be replaced with walking ones against characters with shorter rolls after missed tech, such as Fox.

    When crouching, if you flick the stick in a direction of left or right, you will do a dash in that direction. If you do it the direction behind you, you will do a smash turn, which only has 1 frame turning (still needs to be frame perfect, so roll the stick backwards very quickly)




    Covering the rolls
    You can cover the rolls after missed tech with:
    • Pivot fsmash
    • Dolphin slash
    • Grab
    • Dsmash (on roll behind)
    So when your opponent is at low percents, you'll want to grab, at higher percents, you can pivot fsmash to end the stock!

    GIFS:
    gfycat.com/LavishGenerousLacewing
    gfycat.com/DefenselessDefiantBlueshark
    gfycat.com/UnhealthySnivelingDuckling
    gfycat.com/SoupyFaintAmphiuma
    gfycat.com/InsignificantUnhealthyKouprey
    gfycat.com/LankyPitifulGreatwhiteshark
    gfycat.com/VapidWetBelugawhale



    Covering regular getup
    You can cover regular getup after missed tech with:
    • Grab (Shield for 1 frame then grab or JC the grab because you are crouching. Shield 1 frame is objectively better because you can buffer the shield and it's far easier/more reliable, however, I personally JC it)
    • Dolphin slash
    You should probably be using grab the majority of the time, but use dolphin slash at higher percents where it can kill or set up edgeguards.

    GIFS:
    gfycat.com/GreedyRequiredFlyingfish
    gfycat.com/NaughtyPeacefulKrill


    Covering getup attack
    You can cover getup attack after missed tech with:
    Like the rolls, you should be using grab when your opponent is at low percents and dsmash / pivot fsmash / dolphin slash to clean up stocks when possible.
    You can pivot fsmash after the CC anywhere between 0% and 96%

    GIFS:
    https://gfycat.com/HatefulRashAsianelephant
    gfycat.com/RashRigidBobolink
    gfycat.com/WaryRemorsefulBovine
    gfycat.com/WiltedWellgroomedAfricanwildcat
    gfycat.com/AlarmingBigheartedHomalocephale
    gfycat.com/DeliriousIndolentDogwoodtwigborer

    Practicing these with 20XX 4.05

    Go to:
    Debug Menu > CPU Codes > Ground tech options

    And set "Custom Tech options" on, and set tech in place, tech roll in and tech roll away all to 0
    Now your CPU opponent will not tech, which means that you can practice all of these on reaction from there!
    Additionally, go to:
    Debug Menu > General Codes > Vs. Melee Player Flags
    And set P2 AI type to "Stay" so that you can practice without having to worry about dealing with CPUs.

    Good luck!

    Conclusion:
    If there's anything missing from this, make sure to let me know. And also, experiment, some getup attacks have unique features. So test with those and see what works!
     
    #1 xXadevs2000Xx, Apr 16, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2016
    CarrierPig, Ladder, Fex13 and 6 others like this.
  2. A_Reverie

    A_Reverie
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    A+ work!

    Feel free to toss out some more GIFs of other characters if you get bored. I can't wait to see some of this stuff implemented in tournaments. Perhaps now we can brainstorm some different ways to pressure our opponents into missing techs.
     
  3. TheGravyTrain

    TheGravyTrain
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    The biggest problem with this is that it requires a reaction time of sub 15 frames (since you can't discern the difference between the roll and the stand until at least a few frames in). Considering that people aren't able to react to tech in place consistently, which should be way easier than this, I don't think this is very practical. For tech in place, you have to grab at the absolute latest by frame 19, giving you 4 extra frames to react and/or distinguish which option is which. It also happens at a consistent time rather then letting them lay there and mix up when they choose an action. All things considered, I would consider dtilt a much better option against miss tech than this. I will test later tonight (or you can if you want) what we get off sourspot dtilt, but at the very least we get solid stage positioning off of it. Then at higher percents, I imagine reverse dolphin slash is a good get-off-the-stage/kill option for all miss tech options before they can act (in the timing that you would jab reset, just do this).
     
  4. A_Reverie

    A_Reverie
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    These options are being tested, and in my opinion are very reliable with practice. No, it won't seem doable or practical overnight, but given time and dedicated practice these techniques are very powerful. We need to give it time before we write it off as impractical. The only way it has a chance to be is if we push ourselves and give it an honest try.

    That said, D-tilt on missed tech is pretty standard for a reason. It's probably the quickest way to react to them missing a tech and it nets you good stage control for the next interaction. Our goal here is different, though.
     
  5. xXadevs2000Xx

    xXadevs2000Xx
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    You get nothing other than another dtilt or dsmash at higher percents.

    This guide goes over kill options and grab/combo options to cover every option that they have.
    With dedicated practice, people could learn to utilize these properly and it would be much better than simply getting one dtilt.
    It's also far more optimal, I'd argue.
     
  6. TheGravyTrain

    TheGravyTrain
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    It is more optimal if you can consistently and reliably get it. I don't think it will be feasible in tournament conditions to get this, so that is why I would lean towards dtilt more. If it can be done, this will be great, there is not doubt about that.
     
  7. MuraRengan

    MuraRengan
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    It might not be feasible for you, but there are definitely players who can learn this. The key to using these techs is anticipation, not reaction. You have to already have some idea what your opponent is going to do, so that you are prepared for their move before they even do it. It certainly wont be easy for a player to master these punishes, but everything in this game comes with practice.
     
  8. X WaNtEd X

    X WaNtEd X
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    Bumping this old thread. I don't think a lot of people realize how tough executing sub 15 frame reactions is. It's not impossible, but that's around a 230ms reaction time, which is far better than average for a choice reaction time. Factor in delay input and tournament nerves and this setup is borderline impossible to get down consistently. If it was standard reaction, which is what you see in those tests where you react as soon as you see the light turn green or whatever, it would be doable. But reacting to multiple options increases your reaction time exponentially for every additional option.

    When I say it's impossible to get this down, my standard is that you always get a follow-up and can react to everything. But just because you can't do that doesn't mean you can't make this work. I think it's a pretty decent way you get kills if you are confident your opponent will choose an option you can react to easily. A lot of players accidentally buffer getup attack or just have a bad habit of it, so taking advantage of that with this setup is good too.
     
    #8 X WaNtEd X, Nov 28, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
  9. ridemyboat

    ridemyboat
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    What animations are similar and for how long? For example, if get up in place and roll forward shared 2 frames, I could soft react to those two options with a pivot after dashing forward, and possibly net a grab after confirming getup in place or fsmash them if they rolled forward.

    Also, what options here require 15 frames or less? From the looks of it, all are do-able - Marth starts moving on frame 15, but you can win some leniency here by choosing to cover a smaller group of options. If you know generally that they're either going to roll forward, getup attack or getup in place, or that roll backward isn't actually an option because of how they landed and where they're positioned, then it should be a lot easier.
     
    #9 ridemyboat, Jan 29, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2017
  10. Ladder

    Ladder
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    The good old chaingrab to random dthrow is still a thing :p
     
  11. A_Reverie

    A_Reverie
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    So it's been a while since this was posted and I just wanted to post some updated thoughts.

    I've honestly been defaulting to crouch on missed techs for a while now. Given I have the time to get into position, I can usually follow up. It mostly works when they get-up attack. I usually go for regrab but there have been a few times that I got the reverse up-b on a spacey.

    CC missed tech should mostly be used to get grabs in my opinion, as it's the easiest to execute. The hardest option to grab here is regular getup on Fox/Falco (because of shine) so it's definitely worth practicing.


    It's harder to get in position with crouch off of a Dthrow. I usually use this after hitting with F-air/N-air where I'm able to land nearby.
     
  12. Ladder

    Ladder
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    True I usually just fsmash missed tech of the randy dthrow, sets up for an edgaurd
     
  13. CarrierPig

    CarrierPig
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    Wow! Great work! I've thought about using options like these to setup kills on tech options but I never knew if it was actually viable or not, and had no idea to try CCing! Good job dude man!
     

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