Knife8193
Smash Journeyman
Something I've noticed especially with a lot of newer Greninja is that they do not know how to kill safely before upthrow %s. I've put this list together to help fellow Greninjas be more aware of kill options at his disposal. I will be covering any string, 50/50, or true combo that leads into a kill, except for footstool lock setups (which I will eventually make a separate topic for given how intricate it can be). All of the following setups work at kill percent (duh), but some will stop with high rage/damage, in which case you should just upthrow. I am by no means claiming credit for the discovery of any of these, most are just common knowledge within the Greninja community. Most are not DIable unless stated otherwise. I will try to link clips of these setups in action, just keep in mind lots of setups can be chained from other moves.
Also, you may be interested in the estimated kill %s for Greninja's attacks, listed in the spoilers.
Kill Setup | Example (if available) | Type of setup | Notes/comments
Dtilt > JC Upsmash | 3:17 to 3:20 | True | Must be close to opponent when Dtilting to get the true combo. Upsmash must be jump canceled to work.
Dtilt > Fair or Smash | 13:34 to 13:40 / 22:15 to 22:19 (airdodge read) | 50/50 | If the Dtilt hits from far or the opponent has really high %, they can jump/airdodge/aerial to avoid the JC Usmash. If you read a jump, use Fair. If you read the opponent will airdodge/aerial, you can charge a smash attack (Fsmash is best choice for killing horizontally, but sometimes the opponent will be knocked high enough for a sweetspot Usmash). At extremely high percents, Dtilt > Fair will have enough hitstun to true combo.
Uptilt > Uair | 1:04 to 1:08 | True or 50/50 | Some characters are floaty enough to escape the true combo at kill %s and can airdodge. At extremely high %s you will not be able to reach the opponent before they buffer airdodge, but you can catch the airdodge with a Shadow Sneak.
Uthrow > Uair | Not available | 50/50 | This is only a 50/50 on light fast fallers. Some have no choice but to airdodge to avoid the Uair at kill percents, which you can read with a Shadow Sneak. Small % range to work.
Sourspot Nair > JC Upsmash | 0:42 to 0:45 | True | None
Sweetspot Nair > Fair | 0:46 to 0:50 | True | None
Dash attack > Fair | 0:38 to 0:40 | 50/50 (with bad DI) | This is 50/50 on large characters with no DI or DI in and a 50/50 on the rest with DI in. Assuming opponent DI'd poorly, they can still buffer airdodge to avoid the Fair, but you can bait it and delay the timing to catch the airdodge.
Dair spike > Shadow Sneak | Not available | True (missed tech) | Opponent can tech the spike. For best results, use the back kick of Shadow Sneak after the Dair spike.
Uair spike > Dsmash | 22:39 to 22:45 | True (missed tech) | Opponent can tech the spike.
Uair spike > Utilt > Uair | Not available | True (missed tech) | Opponent can tech the spike.
Dthrow > Fair or Smash| 0:00 to 0:05 | 50/50 | Opponent can usually airdodge after the Dthrow, but you can delay your fair to hit after the airdodge ends, or charge a smash attack if onstage. Opponent can jump after extremely high percents, but it become more of a mixup at that point and you can catch the jump with DJ Fair or Uair. If opponent DI's in, Uair becomes an option.
Jab 2 > Fsmash | 2:11 to 2:15 | Mixup | Not guaranteed at all and opponent can always escape by jumping or shielding (if fast faller). Good mixup if your opponent likes to aerial or airdodge a lot. Also good for forcing opponent into using their double jump and trapping landings.
Sourspot Dair > Uair spike > Dsmash | 22:39 to 22:45 | True (missed tech) | Opponent can tech the spike. Opponent can DI the sourspot Dair to avoid the Uair followup.
Bair (hits 1 or 2) > Turnaround Dtilt > JC Upsmash | 1st half | True | None
Bair (hits 1 or 2) > Uptilt > Uair | 2nd half | True | None
Please let me know if you have a kill setup (or even a really good kill mixup) to share.
Also I'm in need for footage for these combos. Preferably actual in-game clips rather than training mode stuff. I don't have any recording devices myself. If anyone wants to help out with footage, that would be great as I'm sure many of you are visual learners. I prefer Gfycat, but Youtube timestamps, Vines, or Twitter media is fine too.
Also, you may be interested in the estimated kill %s for Greninja's attacks, listed in the spoilers.
All of the following was tested on Mario without any DI, charging, staleness, or rage factors at the P2 spawn point on Final Destination unless otherwise stated. Rage typically makes up for staleness and survival DI, but largely depends on the move itself. You can use these to ballpark kill %s for other characters based on their weight and fall speed. Typically, one unit of weight adds/subtracts 1% to survivability, then fall speed must be factored in depending on which blastzone opponent is launched to (usually not a big difference for horizontal kills, but can be noticeable for vertical kill %s). For example, Captain Falcon (fast faller with 104 weight) dies to Uthrow at 177% and Fsmash at 94% while Yoshi (floaty with 104 weight) dies to Uthrow at 164% and Fsmash at 97%. Fall fallers tend to live longer than floaties vertically but die slightly earlier horizontally, opposite being true for floaties.
Mario Kill%s from Greninja Attacks
Vertical:
Nair (sweetspot) - 171%
Uthrow - 164%
Uair - 113% (tested at the apex of double jump)
Substitute (vertical) - 92%
Usmash (sweetspot) - 90% (tested at the apex of the sweetspot with both hits landing)
Horizontal:
Bair - 179% (set Mario to jump and connected all hits without horizontal momentum)
Ftilt (sweetspot) - 173%
Usmash (sourspot) - 138% (weakest possible hit that does 10%)
Fair - 125% (many setups position Fair closer to the blastzone, so this could potentially be lower)
Water Shuriken (fully charged) - 110% (started charge as close as possible to Mario)
Shadow Sneak (front kick) - 108%
Dsmash - 101%
Substitute (horizontal) - 98%
Fsmash - 93%
Shadow Sneak (back kick) - 90%
Mario Kill%s from Greninja Attacks
Vertical:
Nair (sweetspot) - 171%
Uthrow - 164%
Uair - 113% (tested at the apex of double jump)
Substitute (vertical) - 92%
Usmash (sweetspot) - 90% (tested at the apex of the sweetspot with both hits landing)
Horizontal:
Bair - 179% (set Mario to jump and connected all hits without horizontal momentum)
Ftilt (sweetspot) - 173%
Usmash (sourspot) - 138% (weakest possible hit that does 10%)
Fair - 125% (many setups position Fair closer to the blastzone, so this could potentially be lower)
Water Shuriken (fully charged) - 110% (started charge as close as possible to Mario)
Shadow Sneak (front kick) - 108%
Dsmash - 101%
Substitute (horizontal) - 98%
Fsmash - 93%
Shadow Sneak (back kick) - 90%
Dtilt > JC Upsmash | 3:17 to 3:20 | True | Must be close to opponent when Dtilting to get the true combo. Upsmash must be jump canceled to work.
Dtilt > Fair or Smash | 13:34 to 13:40 / 22:15 to 22:19 (airdodge read) | 50/50 | If the Dtilt hits from far or the opponent has really high %, they can jump/airdodge/aerial to avoid the JC Usmash. If you read a jump, use Fair. If you read the opponent will airdodge/aerial, you can charge a smash attack (Fsmash is best choice for killing horizontally, but sometimes the opponent will be knocked high enough for a sweetspot Usmash). At extremely high percents, Dtilt > Fair will have enough hitstun to true combo.
Uptilt > Uair | 1:04 to 1:08 | True or 50/50 | Some characters are floaty enough to escape the true combo at kill %s and can airdodge. At extremely high %s you will not be able to reach the opponent before they buffer airdodge, but you can catch the airdodge with a Shadow Sneak.
Uthrow > Uair | Not available | 50/50 | This is only a 50/50 on light fast fallers. Some have no choice but to airdodge to avoid the Uair at kill percents, which you can read with a Shadow Sneak. Small % range to work.
Sourspot Nair > JC Upsmash | 0:42 to 0:45 | True | None
Sweetspot Nair > Fair | 0:46 to 0:50 | True | None
Dash attack > Fair | 0:38 to 0:40 | 50/50 (with bad DI) | This is 50/50 on large characters with no DI or DI in and a 50/50 on the rest with DI in. Assuming opponent DI'd poorly, they can still buffer airdodge to avoid the Fair, but you can bait it and delay the timing to catch the airdodge.
Dair spike > Shadow Sneak | Not available | True (missed tech) | Opponent can tech the spike. For best results, use the back kick of Shadow Sneak after the Dair spike.
Uair spike > Dsmash | 22:39 to 22:45 | True (missed tech) | Opponent can tech the spike.
Uair spike > Utilt > Uair | Not available | True (missed tech) | Opponent can tech the spike.
Dthrow > Fair or Smash| 0:00 to 0:05 | 50/50 | Opponent can usually airdodge after the Dthrow, but you can delay your fair to hit after the airdodge ends, or charge a smash attack if onstage. Opponent can jump after extremely high percents, but it become more of a mixup at that point and you can catch the jump with DJ Fair or Uair. If opponent DI's in, Uair becomes an option.
Jab 2 > Fsmash | 2:11 to 2:15 | Mixup | Not guaranteed at all and opponent can always escape by jumping or shielding (if fast faller). Good mixup if your opponent likes to aerial or airdodge a lot. Also good for forcing opponent into using their double jump and trapping landings.
Sourspot Dair > Uair spike > Dsmash | 22:39 to 22:45 | True (missed tech) | Opponent can tech the spike. Opponent can DI the sourspot Dair to avoid the Uair followup.
Bair (hits 1 or 2) > Turnaround Dtilt > JC Upsmash | 1st half | True | None
Bair (hits 1 or 2) > Uptilt > Uair | 2nd half | True | None
Please let me know if you have a kill setup (or even a really good kill mixup) to share.
Also I'm in need for footage for these combos. Preferably actual in-game clips rather than training mode stuff. I don't have any recording devices myself. If anyone wants to help out with footage, that would be great as I'm sure many of you are visual learners. I prefer Gfycat, but Youtube timestamps, Vines, or Twitter media is fine too.
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