Meta Greninja True Combos and Strings

MartinAW4

Smash Journeyman
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Oct 25, 2014
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312
#1
As in Smash 4, I will be testing all combos vs Sheik which is a traditionally difficult matchup for Greninja, probably the worst in the game. I will be testing these in training mode with CPU shuffling set to "a lot" to hopefully get some DI from the CPU. But if the training mode is anything like in Smash 4, there is a chance that some combos that are listed as true are not really true or some that are not listed as true are actually true. That is why I will also be listing good strings that either frame trap the opponent (meaning even if they dodge, you can punish the dodge) or are generally hard to dodge or are true 50/50 setups. The percents when these combos work will be different for different characters but usually combos that are true vs Sheik are also true vs most other characters maybe except some floaties like Jigglypuff.

I chose different colors for each combo based on its usefulness:
Green: These are in my opinion the most useful, reliable and safest combos which you'll be using most often.
Yellow: These combos are very good, but they work at smaller % ranges and might not be as reliable.
Orange: These combos aren't bad, but are very situational, working only at very specific % or simply outclassed by other combos.
Red: These combos are not true but can lead to kills or high damage if you land them.

Down Tilt Combos:
Combo moves.......................................% at which the combo works.........Total Damage
Dtilt > Jab.........................................................0-7%..................................13-16%
Dtilt > Dash Attack...........................0-10%; 11-22%; 23-30%...................12%
Dtilt > Ftilt (3).................................................................21-45%....................................11.3-12.3%
Dtilt > turn around Bair (4)...............25-39%; 40-80%; 81-200%..................13.7%
Dtilt > Usmash....................................40-49%; 50-105%............................23%
Dtilt > Fair...................................................70-170%..................................18%
Dtilt > Uair..................................................80-190%..................................13.5%
Dash Attack Combos:
Combo moves.......................................% at which the combo works.........Total Damage
Dash Attack > Usmash........................................0-38%.....................................33%
Dash Attack > turn around Bair....................0-100%..................................17.7-19.5%
Dash Attack > Fair.....................................33-120%...................................22%
Dash Attack > Uair.....................................0-120%....................................17.5%
Fully Charged Water Shuriken (FCWS) Combos:
Combo moves..................................................% at which the combo works.........Total Damage
FCWS > Usmash..................................................................0-25%.....................................33%
FCWS > Fair............................................................0-67%.....................................28%
Half charged WS > Dash Attack (2).......10-29%; 30-130%; 131-300%..............11-19%
Up Throw Combos:
Combo moves.......................................% at which the combo works.........Total Damage
Uthrow > Utilt > Uair...............................................0-8%...............................................17.5%
Uthrow > Usmash.....................................................0-25%..............................................24%
Uthrow > Uair (1)........................................4-55%; 56-85%; 96-120%...............14.5%
Down Throw Combos:
Combo moves.................................................................................................% at which the combo works.........Total Damage
Dthrow > Jab..................................................................................................0-13%..................................14.5%
Dthrow > Dtilt................................................................................................0-15%....................................9%
Dthrow > Dash Attack > Usmash...............................................................0-27%...................................32%
Dthrow > Ftilt................................................................................................10-25%..................................12.3%

Dthrow > Dsmash.........................................................................................16-25%...................................18%
Dthrow > RAR Bair (5) .........................................................................30-80%; 81-180%....................14.7-16.5%
NOTES
(1) Reliable only until 55%. Requires possibly frame perfect double jump and Uair timing to be true from 56-85%. Not true at 96-120% but kills.
(2) At 10-30% you need to be right next to the opponent and land an almost fully charged shuriken to combo into Dash Attack, so it is not reliable. From 30-130% you can land a partially charged shuriken from mid range and have enough time to true combo it into Dash Attack. As percents go up, use less charge to prevent the opponent from getting launched too far for your follow up. You can true combo even up to 300+% at which point you are comboing off of uncharged shurikens because anything stronger launches too far, but the timing is stricter.

(3) Use up angled Ftilt for more damage and hitting more reliably. Regualr Ftilt still hits between 21-35%, but between 36-45 you will miss unless you angle it up.
(4) After Dtilt, just hold back until you see Greninja start to turn around, then immediately press jump + C stick forward to land the Bair. The combo starts working at 25% but requires frame perfect turnaround into frame perfect instant Bair which is very hard to do consistently. So I recommend going for the combo between 40-70% when it is very consistent and Fair does not combo yet. At over 80% you start needing to full hop the Bair which is hard to do with the buffering system, but if you get it, the combo works well.
(5) From 30-80% you can true combo into short hop RAR Bair. At above 80% you start needing to full hop to connect the Bair but it still true comboes, it is just more difficult to get the full hop with the buffering system. This combo starts killing around 110% making this Greninja's first ever true kill confirm off a grab.

Fthrow > missed tech > Dash Attack > Usmash (at below 20%)
Dthrow > Fair (around 110%) - couldn't get it to register as true so far
Dtilt > Dtilt (low %)
Dtilt > Nair (mid %)
Utilt > Utilt > Uair (low %)
Utilt > Drag down Uair (around 30%)
Utilt > Uair (should work from 0-140% at least)
Utilt > Nair
Utilt > Usmash (low %)
Utilt > Shadow Sneak 50/50 (find optimal % for it, should be around 90% to punish airdodge)
Dash Attack > RAR Bair (mid-high %)
Nair > Jab (low %)
Nair > Dtilt (low %)
Nair > Utilt > Usmash (low %)
Nair > Utilt > Uair (low-mid %)
Nair > Grab (low %)
Nair > Nair (mid %)
Nait > Nair > Fair (mid %)
Nair > Fair (mid-high %)
Nair > Usmash (around 30% sweetspot Nair and around 80% sourspot Nair)
First 2 hits of Bair > Dsmash (at 100+ %) - true kill confirm
Halfway charged Shuriken > Grab (maybe?)
Dair > Fair (around 80%)
Dair > Bair (around 80%)
Fair > Grab (low %) - does not seem true anymore
Fair > Dash Attack > Fair (around 20%) - much stricter range when it works
Fair > Dtilt (low %)
Substitute (up) > Uair (around 80%)
Substitute (up) > Nair (around 75%)
 
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MartinAW4

Smash Journeyman
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312
#2
I spent a few hours playing Greninja to get a better feel for which combos are useful in practice. It turns out that Dthrow > Dtilt > regrab is not true. Opponents can jump out in time. Also Dthrow > Dtilt > Dash Attack > Usmash, while true on the combo counter, it requires strict timing and if the Dtilt is DIed up, your Dash Attack will miss.

So the best early throw combo is Dthrow > Dash Attack > Usmash for a nice roughly 39%. That is already halfway to kill percent. Or just Dash Attack > Usmash works very reliably even vs floaties and deals over 30% damage as well. You can also combo into Dash attack from Nair or Fair, which also leads to Usmash. So essentially the whole early game is centered around the Dash Attack > Usmash combo which you can get from grab, Nair, Fair or Dtilt, so essentially all your best options in neutral lead into it.

Now in mid percents from 40-90% this is when most of your combos start working. You have:
Uthrow > Uair
Utilt > drag down Uair > Utilt chains
Dash Attack > Fair or Uair
depending on DI
Nair > Usmash
Even halfway charged Shuriken true combos into Dash Attack > Fair or Uair
You just need to land 2 of these and the opponent is now at kill percents.

At around 80-100% it is Dtilt fishing time! The moment you land one, you get your Usmash confirm for the kill. I've also noticed that for not registering as a true combo, Dthrow > Fair works surprisingly consistently and kills very early. It seems to work even better than in Smash 4. This might be another one of those cases where it does not register as a combo but in practice it is hard to escape.

Also in general chasing people with Uairs at the top of the screen is so much better now. People are so afraid to airdodge, so you can just juggle them with Uairs to death. And even if they dodge, you can usually frame trap them with a Bair.

Substitute is another move that is surprisingly good for how bad it was before. It kills very early and comboes into killing Uair or Nair even earlier. You can punish even weak attacks with death now, you can use it defensively to recover or even use it for edgeguarding. The new slowdown it introduced lets you punish even jabs with death. Great to finally have a useable counter.
Edit: After testing, it seems that Substitute up > Nair and Substitute up > Uair do not true combo at any percent anymore. They still link, so you can kill the opponent if they do not airdodge but they are not true combos anymore. That is still a fair trade-off though for the move working reliably now. You just have to wait until roughly 110% for a kill from anywhere istead of 75-80%, which is fair. We do not need another Witch Time in this game.

Shadow Sneak is also amazing. The shadow travels so fast now and the kill power is so high that you can heavily punish zoners for using projectiles from a good distance. You can still cancel your taunts with it which still noone sees coming. And like Substitute, it can also be used for recovery off stage to teleport through edgeguards or even reverse edgeguard anyone who dares jump off stage after you. You can also use it out of shield by tilting your shield forward and pressing B for an unexpected punish (in practice it is easiest to cancel your dash with shield which allows you to hold your analog stick to the side in shield without rolling and then you just press B to Shadow Sneak out of shield).

Greninja's main weakness is still the weak out of shield game, especially now that its grabs are slower again and its lack of fast approaching aerials with long lasting hitboxes. If the opponent pressures you with fast hitboxes, there is not much you can do from shield. I've been experimenting with directional airdodges into the ground though and they do seem promising. They might not be useful for wavedashing but they can be used like a spotdodge + roll hybrid that does not decay with use.

The new buffer mechanic for pressing jump + A at the same time always giving you a short hop aerial is not that great for Greninja, since most of the time we do not use rising short hop aerials. We fast fall Nairs, Fairs and Bairs to hit standing opponents. At least for Uairs it helps for early % combos. But I feel like the timing or hitboxes for Fair have been changed since I've been missing them a lot in Ultimate. I still need to get used to that. The new improved run speed and aerial speed are great, but they are throwing off my timing that I got used to with Smash 4 Greninja over the years.

Overall I'm really liking the new Greninja. Its kill power has been heavily buffed and most of its moves now work as they should other than the rare Usmash not linking properly. Hopefully he stays under the radar like how he has been doing so far to avoid the initial wave of nerfs. I am not sure if he can truly make top tier without some kind of buff to his aerial frame data (Nair being faster would make most sense). But at least this is most likely the best version of Greninja we've ever had, I'd even say he's better than his original pre-patch version from the 3DS days.
 
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Syklon

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
2
#3
How are you guys getting the above combos out? Specifically even simple stuff like dash -> up smash doesn't connect every time for me. Let alone the timing of the dash out of a dthrow (and not getting a forward smash...) to get the dthrow -> dash combo. Is there some cancel mechanics necessary here that I don't yet know about?

Haven't really been around since brawl but it seems like if these are true combos there's gotta be something I'm missing. Thanks!
 

MartinAW4

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
312
#4
How are you guys getting the above combos out? Specifically even simple stuff like dash -> up smash doesn't connect every time for me. Let alone the timing of the dash out of a dthrow (and not getting a forward smash...) to get the dthrow -> dash combo. Is there some cancel mechanics necessary here that I don't yet know about?

Haven't really been around since brawl but it seems like if these are true combos there's gotta be something I'm missing. Thanks!
Use the C stick, it makes the combos a lot easier to perform. Hold right and press the C stick forward to do an instant Dash Attack, then hold right and press the C stick up for a running Usmash that consistently true comboes out of Dash Attack.

Dthrow > Dash Attack is a tigher timing but with the instant Dash Attack you can get it consistently at least vs fastfallers.

Also many things can be buffered. You can buffer jump by holding the jump button and attacks can be buffered too which guarantees you will have frame perfect inputs for combos.
 

Syklon

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
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#5
Aha. The cstick trick is very useful here. I guess one downside is for the sliding up smash you need the c-stick set to smashes while I typically used it for tilts. Got it working pretty easily now, thanks!
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2018
Messages
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#6
Been getting a lot of confirms around 100% with the first two hits of back air, haven’t labbed the specifics out but it seems like it has a ton of potential that gives us another option other than down tilt at kill percent. Forward smash is the easiest and obvious follow up, at slightly lower percents you might be able to do a turnaround down tilt into up smash too.
 
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#7
Also testing on Sheik for consistency.

Dtilt > Grab appears to be true at low percents if you're close to them on hit.
Dtilt > Ftilt is a nice option if you land a Dtilt in that tricky low-mid percentage where you can't really seem to land anything else reliably.
Dtilt > Bair is true at mid percents if you buffer a standing turnaround before jumping.
Dtilt > Fsmash *might* be a thing around 50-60%. Unsure because I can only test with a CPU.
Fair > Dash Attack > Usmash appears to be true at around 0-10%.
Dair (grounded spike) > Dair is a thing at high percents since you can't tech those anymore.
Ftilt (missed tech) > Dash Attack > Usmash/Bair works at around 25-35%, but I'd recommend Bair since I can't get Usmash to work consistently against even the CPU.
Utilt > Falling Uair > Dtilt > Usmash is a potential kill confirm at around 70-80%. Probably not reliable because you can tech the Uair.
Falling Uair > Dsmash is another confirm that works at any percent, but it only really starts killing over 100%. Again, unsure about the reliability of this one. At least against Sheik, she can't tech a falling Uair below 23% or so, which can lead into all sorts of shenanigans. The best setup for landing this at low percents is getting off a Utilt or two before going for a Falling Uair into something like Utilt -> Usmash.
 

bc1910

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#8
Have been labbing some combos, unfortunately Dash Attack to Fair is NOT true at kill percent. Not sure if this is known but there seems to be a bug with the training mode combo counter (surprise...) which causes it to register combos a few frames after hitstun ends. I was testing in 1 frame mode performing frame perfect DA to full hop Fair on Falcon and Inkling at about 100%, both were able to airdodge consistently despite the combo counter not resetting.

You can also jump out but the Fair will usually still connect. Weirdly, the combo counter will still not reset in this case despite the jump visually starting. It looks like you can jump and airdodge on the same frame so hitstun cancelling with airdodge IS out, just the combo counter is bugged OR you can cancel hitstun slightly early with any action, which is a little more intuitive to how it worked in Sm4sh.

Fortunately everything else appears to be intact including stuff like DA to Usmash so this is probably a high percent KB thing. DA to Uair at high percent is still true, it probably won’t kill but it’s good for damage racking and puts them in a horrible position. Uair is our most reliable follow up from DA in general, even drag down Uair can true combo. Fair can still be true confirmed easily off Dtilt at kill percent. You can go for DA to Fair at kill percent as it will catch jumps and there are small percent windows where it will catch airdodge during the startup, but you need to be frame perfect and these windows are really small. In most cases it’s easy for the opponent to buffer airdodge out of the combo. Treat it as more of a mixup.
 

MartinAW4

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#9
Also testing on Sheik for consistency.

Dtilt > Grab appears to be true at low percents if you're close to them on hit.
Dtilt > Ftilt is a nice option if you land a Dtilt in that tricky low-mid percentage where you can't really seem to land anything else reliably.
Dtilt > Bair is true at mid percents if you buffer a standing turnaround before jumping.
Dtilt > Fsmash *might* be a thing around 50-60%. Unsure because I can only test with a CPU.
Fair > Dash Attack > Usmash appears to be true at around 0-10%.
Dair (grounded spike) > Dair is a thing at high percents since you can't tech those anymore.
Ftilt (missed tech) > Dash Attack > Usmash/Bair works at around 25-35%, but I'd recommend Bair since I can't get Usmash to work consistently against even the CPU.
Utilt > Falling Uair > Dtilt > Usmash is a potential kill confirm at around 70-80%. Probably not reliable because you can tech the Uair.
Falling Uair > Dsmash is another confirm that works at any percent, but it only really starts killing over 100%. Again, unsure about the reliability of this one. At least against Sheik, she can't tech a falling Uair below 23% or so, which can lead into all sorts of shenanigans. The best setup for landing this at low percents is getting off a Utilt or two before going for a Falling Uair into something like Utilt -> Usmash.
Dtilt > Grab is DI and weight dependant. I initially had the Dthrow > Dtilt > regrab combo listed but in practice I saw that opponents could escape it, so I removed it.
Dtilt > Ftilt agreed
Dtilt > Bair - I will definitely look more into this one. This one has very nice potential if it can be done reliably.
Dtilt > Fsmash - this is one of those that even when not true, the opponent rarely manages to dodge it. But Dtilt > Dsmash is a true combo, so I'd mostly go for that despite the 1% damage loss.
Fair > DA > Usmash - I can confirm I landed a few of these even in practice. Very satisfying to perform.
Dair > Dair - yes this is one of the few Dair combos that still works after the Dair nerfs.
The other combos are techable, but I can add them as useful strings that can be used as mix-ups.

bc1910 bc1910
Thanks for confirming that the combo counter is flawed yet again. So DA > Fair is just a 50/50 but that is still useful especially with how early it can kill if you get the DA close to the ledge.

I agree that Uair is in general the most reliable follow up to Dash Attack once it stops comboing into Usmash. But since it kills late, it is worth going for the Fair 50/50 once in a while once they are at kill %.
 

Taphel

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 26, 2018
Messages
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#10
Hi. I'm a beginner in smash games. I'm trying practicing all of this, but it's kinda hard to figure out if I get those combos right or not.
What should I look at ? The combo counter ? If I hit the training dummy ?

NPC Shuffling is set to "A Lot" and i sometimes get 3 hit combo on Dash Attack > Usmash, sometimes 2. The high percent DTilt > Usmash always registers as a 2hit and not 3hit combo as well.
In a real match versus a friend, he seems to always be able to jump out after the dash attack.

Also most people recommand going for Tilt C-stick, but is there a trick to get that running upsmash without C-stick ?

EDIT : After some work, the A+B Smash Attack seems to work really nicely for running Usmash :) Just gotta work on hit confirming aerials into dash attack now.
 
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MartinAW4

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#11
Hi. I'm a beginner in smash games. I'm trying practicing all of this, but it's kinda hard to figure out if I get those combos right or not.
What should I look at ? The combo counter ? If I hit the training dummy ?

NPC Shuffling is set to "A Lot" and i sometimes get 3 hit combo on Dash Attack > Usmash, sometimes 2. The high percent DTilt > Usmash always registers as a 2hit and not 3hit combo as well.
In a real match versus a friend, he seems to always be able to jump out after the dash attack.

Also most people recommand going for Tilt C-stick, but is there a trick to get that running upsmash without C-stick ?

EDIT : After some work, the A+B Smash Attack seems to work really nicely for running Usmash :) Just gotta work on hit confirming aerials into dash attack now.
The timings are very strict for some of the combos and because the CPU shuffling actually doesn't seem to really do anything, there is no good way to test the DI in training mode.

Dash Attack for example can be DIed up when using a lighter character to avoid the Usmash follow up even at low percents. But in those cases you can follow up with an Uair. You can even drag the opponent down with the Uair which comboes into Utilt and that comboes into Usmash. So in the end you still get your combo into Usmash. Somé and Lea are two japanese Greninja mains who are using the Uair dragdown combo instead of Usmash when they see the opponent DI up.

Regarding the C-stick setting, this depends on the character. In smash 4, tilt stick was better for Greninja but in Ultimate, I have it set to smashes because with the new changes, I find it easier to do running Dtilts and Utilts manually than running smashes.
 

MartinAW4

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#14
Today I labbed out Greninja's Bair comboes. They are more difficult to perform because you need to time your turn around or RAR precisely, but they cover angles that none of Greninja's other aerials hit, so they are well worth the extra effort to learn to use consistently. These were the main ones I tested:

Dtilt > turn around Bair
This one works best at 40-80%, so it perfectly covers the gap after Dash Attack > Usmash racks up the early 30-40% and before Dtilt > Fair or Uair starts being true.

Dash Attack > turn around Bair

This one I found the least useful out of all the Bair combos I tested. It does work at a wide percent range starting from 0% up to 100%. But Dash Attack has so many other true follow ups like Usmash, Fair, Uair or Nair that are easier to perform and deal more damage that there are very few situations when going for Bair is the best option.
There is one case when I'd go for Bair though, if you land the Dash Attack close to the ledge at low % because the first Bair sends the opponent at an angle that is perfect for following up with another Bair. The follow up is not true but there is very little time to react and it is risky to dodge when you're already off stage, so usually the opponent will take the hit which will lead to very early kills vs any character that has a weaker recovery.
The other problem is that Dash Attack launches quite high even at low percents, so you will have to go for the full hop Bairs which are harder to land due to the buffering system.
So overall not an option you will see often but good to know it is there in case you land a Dash Attack near the ledge.

Dthrow > RAR Bair
This is the one I like the most. I didn't think it would work at such a wide percent range and connect so reliably off of a throw. This is especially good because we lost our Dthrow > Fair combo from Smash 4. But even that was true only with bad DI, usually it was a 50/50 at best.
This combo works at a very wide percent range from around 30% up to 180% and because you have time to RAR Bair instead of turn around Bair, you can follow even outward DI, so it might still be true. I will have to test this later with someone holding away, but this would be huge as Greninja's first ever true kill confirm off a grab.
It also kills quite early, around 110% from the edge of the stage, which is around the range when Dthrow > Fair used to kill in Smash 4.
 

Oddbaum21

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Jul 6, 2018
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#15
How do you get 30 off of dash attack to up smash? I'm against a ZSS in training and I tend to get 23.9 percent
 

MartinAW4

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#16
How do you get 30 off of dash attack to up smash? I'm against a ZSS in training and I tend to get 23.9 percent
You're probably getting Dash Attack into the side hits of Usmash. You need to Dash Attack, then run under the opponent and Usmash to get the sweetspot hit which will deal 8% from Dash attack and 5+14% from sweetspot Usmash at base. But in a 1vs1 you get a 20% damage boost and a freshness bonus as well, so you will end up dealing over 30%.
 

helmzboi

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#18
Sorry if this is the wrong spot to ask this but the only thing i have trouble doing is the falling up air how do i do it consistently??
 

Setekh

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#19
Sorry if this is the wrong spot to ask this but the only thing i have trouble doing is the falling up air how do i do it consistently??
At the Apex of your jump fast fall the uair. Follow up with a Jab Lock >Fsmash or Dtilt >Upsmash if the percents agree.
 

Firox

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#20
Sorry if this is the wrong spot to ask this but the only thing i have trouble doing is the falling up air how do i do it consistently??
Mechanically speaking, I found that trick easiest to do by using the left stick to fast fall and pushing the c-stick up at the same time. That said, I have a question for you other ninja frogs out there. I've been watching players like istudying landing the up-air spike combos with disgustingly beautiful ease yet I can NEVER get it to land on an actual human player. Granted, istudying is the greninja god, but I was wondering if anyone knew a setup or combo that consistently leads into it besides up-tilt?
 

MartinAW4

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#21
Mechanically speaking, I found that trick easiest to do by using the left stick to fast fall and pushing the c-stick up at the same time. That said, I have a question for you other ninja frogs out there. I've been watching players like istudying landing the up-air spike combos with disgustingly beautiful ease yet I can NEVER get it to land on an actual human player. Granted, istudying is the greninja god, but I was wondering if anyone knew a setup or combo that consistently leads into it besides up-tilt?
Dash Attack is your next best bet for comboing into the dragdown Uair. Though I generally don't go for it much. This is like the footstool combos. It looks cool and can lead to some nice damage but the dragdown is techable, so you might get nothing from it vs strong opponents who are exactly the ones when you'll need it the most.

It's good to use as a mixup especially if they're around 80% and close to the ledge since if it works it'll get you the stock. Otherwise I find going for a regular Uair to be more reliable since it gives you guaranteed damage and leaves them in the air where you can often chase them with more Uairs.
 

Firox

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#22
Dash Attack is your next best bet for comboing into the dragdown Uair. Though I generally don't go for it much. This is like the footstool combos. It looks cool and can lead to some nice damage but the dragdown is techable, so you might get nothing from it vs strong opponents who are exactly the ones when you'll need it the most.

It's good to use as a mixup especially if they're around 80% and close to the ledge since if it works it'll get you the stock. Otherwise I find going for a regular Uair to be more reliable since it gives you guaranteed damage and leaves them in the air where you can often chase them with more Uairs.
I think you hit the nail on the head with pretty much all counts. Too bad the dragdown isn't very practical most the time. One more question: I hear that the down throw->RAR bair is fairly consistent for a wide variety of percentages, but I have a hell of a time nailing the RAR bair consistently in just about any scenario. Does anyone have any advice to help nail the mechanics of it (stick flick/button press sequence)? Every time I try to RAR bair out of run or something, I end up losing my forward momentum.
 

MartinAW4

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#23
I think you hit the nail on the head with pretty much all counts. Too bad the dragdown isn't very practical most the time. One more question: I hear that the down throw->RAR bair is fairly consistent for a wide variety of percentages, but I have a hell of a time nailing the RAR bair consistently in just about any scenario. Does anyone have any advice to help nail the mechanics of it (stick flick/button press sequence)? Every time I try to RAR bair out of run or something, I end up losing my forward momentum.
The RAR Bair follow up is definitely hard to get down consistently. After the Dthrow you immediately dash forward, then when you're at the correct distance from the opponent where you see the Bair will hit, input turn around, jump and C-stick flick forward in that order to get the Bair.
Setting L or R to Jump helps. I personally have both set to jump and use L for this.

The main problem is, that it requires 3 inputs as fast as possible in a row in the correct order. If you change the order in any way, you will get a completely different result (either a Fair or Fsmash usually). And even if you get the correct order but not fast enough, you can get a retreating Bair or not enough forward momentum for your combo to hit.

But muscle memory makes it possible to get even these types of combos consistently with enough practice. If you just practice Dthrow > RAR Bair follow ups for 10 min every day, you will learn them pretty quickly and this will also transfer to all your other characters too, so it's definitely useful to invest time into.
 

Firox

Smash Champion
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#24
The RAR Bair follow up is definitely hard to get down consistently. After the Dthrow you immediately dash forward, then when you're at the correct distance from the opponent where you see the Bair will hit, input turn around, jump and C-stick flick forward in that order to get the Bair.
Setting L or R to Jump helps. I personally have both set to jump and use L for this.

The main problem is, that it requires 3 inputs as fast as possible in a row in the correct order. If you change the order in any way, you will get a completely different result (either a Fair or Fsmash usually). And even if you get the correct order but not fast enough, you can get a retreating Bair or not enough forward momentum for your combo to hit.

But muscle memory makes it possible to get even these types of combos consistently with enough practice. If you just practice Dthrow > RAR Bair follow ups for 10 min every day, you will learn them pretty quickly and this will also transfer to all your other characters too, so it's definitely useful to invest time into.
Awesome advice! Thanks! I'm already getting better results! Man, I've checked out a lot of other smash character communities on this website but the Greninja mains are easily the best!
 

helmzboi

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#25
At the Apex of your jump fast fall the uair. Follow up with a Jab Lock >Fsmash or Dtilt >Upsmash if the percents agree.
Ok i get that i must be doing it too slow then cuz i feel like if i dont do it as fast people will jump out of the up throw
 

Firox

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#26
Ok i get that i must be doing it too slow then cuz i feel like if i dont do it as fast people will jump out of the up throw
That's exactly right. The timing has to be pretty much frame perfect, and as stated by MartinAW4, even if you land it, ppl can tech out so I usually only use it if I happen to catch them in a running up-tilt.
 

Firox

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#27
Ok, guys, so far the most reliable combos I've been able to get online are:

1) Dash attack -> Up smash at low percent (with optional grab/downthrow to start)
2) Dash attack -> Up air at mid to high percent
3) Up tilt landing punish -> Up air/Bair
4) Up throw -> Up air (of course)
and by far the sexiest and most reliable of all
5) Dtilt -> Up smash for the kill confirm
Sometimes I can get the Dash attack/Dtilt -> Fair at higher percents but it doesn't always work. Are there any other especially effective/bread and butter combos I'm missing? Also, I really want to see if there are any Substitute true combos out there. Anyone know if any exist?
 

MartinAW4

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Messages
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#28
Ok, guys, so far the most reliable combos I've been able to get online are:

1) Dash attack -> Up smash at low percent (with optional grab/downthrow to start)
2) Dash attack -> Up air at mid to high percent
3) Up tilt landing punish -> Up air/Bair
4) Up throw -> Up air (of course)
and by far the sexiest and most reliable of all
5) Dtilt -> Up smash for the kill confirm
Sometimes I can get the Dash attack/Dtilt -> Fair at higher percents but it doesn't always work. Are there any other especially effective/bread and butter combos I'm missing? Also, I really want to see if there are any Substitute true combos out there. Anyone know if any exist?
I agree, those are definitely the most reliable combos that are the most difficult for opponents to escape with DI.

I would also add:
Dtilt -> Fair at high percents for the kill. It is very reliable, you just need to be able to full hop Fair fast since you cannot buffer it.

Dash Attack -> turn around Bair also works very reliably. It's one of those that opponents DI to avoid the Fair but that gives you the perfect angle for Bair instead.

Dash Attack -> Fair even when not true is a great frame trap since it often forces an airdodge and then you can punish.

I tested all Substitute angles at many different percent ranges but I could not find any combo that was true. So most likely there aren't any.
 
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Firox

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#29
I agree, those are definitely the most reliable combos that are the most difficult for opponents to escape with DI.

I would also add:
Dtilt -> Fair at high percents for the kill. It is very reliable, you just need to be able to full hop Fair fast since you cannot buffer it.

Dash Attack -> turn around Bair also works very reliably. It's one of those that opponents DI to avoid the Fair but that gives you the perfect angle for Bair instead.

Dash Attack -> Fair even when not true is a great frame trap since it often forces an airdodge and then you can punish.

I tested all Substitute angles at many different percent ranges but I could not find any combo that was true. So most likely there aren't any.
Yeah, I didn't think Substitute could combo but I figured I'd try. As for your suggestions, I gotta say, that forced short hop tech they put in ultimate is hella annoying sometimes. In Sm4sh, I could always nail the dash attack/dtilt -> FH fair by simply mashing A and jump together at the same time. YEARS OF MUSCLE MEMORY flushed down the toilet. Now I have to consciously space the timing of my inputs and I often end up with an accidental short hop. On the upside, it makes the dash attack -> SH up air a lot more consistent so I guess there's that.

As for the Dash Attack/dtilt -> Bair....man, that is a sexy combo and I've seen the pros use it to amazing effect, but OMG it is so hard for me to do it consistently. I can RAR bair from a dash fairly easily, but insta-RAR bair out of Dash attack or standing position is less than 20% consistent for me right now. I'll keep trying to master it, but I find Dash attack -> Up air to be FAR easier and more reliable to land. Alas, the more I watch Venia's antics, the more I wish I could pull them off.
 
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MartinAW4

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Messages
312
#30
Yeah, I didn't think Substitute could combo but I figured I'd try. As for your suggestions, I gotta say, that forced short hop tech they put in ultimate is hella annoying sometimes. In Sm4sh, I could always nail the dash attack/dtilt -> FH fair by simply mashing A and jump together at the same time. YEARS OF MUSCLE MEMORY flushed down the toilet. Now I have to consciously space the timing of my inputs and I often end up with an accidental short hop. On the upside, it makes the dash attack -> SH up air a lot more consistent so I guess there's that.

As for the Dash Attack/dtilt -> Bair....man, that is a sexy combo and I've seen the pros use it to amazing effect, but OMG it is so hard for me to do it consistently. I can RAR bair from a dash fairly easily, but insta-RAR bair out of Dash attack or standing position is less than 20% consistent for me right now. I'll keep trying to master it, but I find Dash attack -> Up air to be FAR easier and more reliable to land. Alas, the more I watch Venia's antics, the more I wish I could pull them off.
There is a trick to get the Dash Attack -> Bair combos down very consistently. After a dash attack if you just hold back, you will have 9 frames of turning around during any of which if you input jump + C stick forward, you will perform an advancing Bair that true comboes out of DA.

This means it is doable on reaction. The trick is to not rush your inputs but wait after the dash attack until you see Greninja start turning around and then input Bair.

This is even more consistent if you set Jump to your L button, so the whole series of inputs will go like this:

1. Dash Attack
2. Keep holding back until you start seeing Greninja turn around
3. Press L and C stick forward to perform the Bair

That's it. You should be able to get it every single time if you do it on reaction instead of trying to time your inputs from muscle memory to catch the 1st possible turn around frame.
 

SJMistery

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#31
Some old Smash 4 strings to consider

With the fixed falling Uair, the N*(Utilt->Uair->)->Usmash should still be a good bread and butter string. Since the target never lands, they cannot tech out of it. No idea on wich percents it will work best on Ultimate.

Uthrow/Utikt->Usmash->Utilt->Usmash is a nice early damage (AKA if you grab them at zero) on middleweights. On heavies, it's better to skip the Utilt and then go for the falling Uair string mentioned above. With the improved hitbox, it's likely that even if the target manages to airdodge the Utilt, they will be catched by the late hit of Usmash.


AAs for short hop, I wonder why they didn't just use one jump button for short hops and another for full jumps, we've always had two identical jump buttons right next to each other...


Edit: Thanks to the moderator that fixed it. Sorry for the inconviniences, and please enable a "delete post" so we can fix this issue ourselves.
 
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Joined
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Messages
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#32
You guys are fantastic, really appreciate all the help this community has given me thru lurking. I Played a lot of fox in Smash 4, but switched to greninja in ultimate because he got the drag downs I wanted ;) here are my scatterbrained notes thus far:

been having a lot of luck with jab reset strings. Most reliably dash attack > ff uair > jab reset > f smash. You can actually repeat steps 1-3 on heavies if you catch them at a pretty specific percent. I’ll lab it all out soon and get back with y’all.

When I inevitably **** up d tilt > u smash and put them out of percent range I usually try and mix up Dtilt > ff uair > reset > f smash and d tilt > fair. U air catches jump spammers and d tilt can connect on people with patience.

If you hit all 3 hits of bair at 0% it puts them in a pretty tough tech situation. If you can reset off of it you have dash attack > u smash free. This only works on tall opponents.

Sour spot dair > ff uair > reset > smash attack has won me more tournament matches then it probably should have. By no means true. It’s just so weird that nobody really predicts it. Lines up nicely at around 90%. **** I really wish i had my switch rn so i could give you guys some specifics.

Resets have completely changed some matchups for me, specifically pichu/pika/squirtle. F smash kills so early on em that all you gotta do is fish for dash attack > u smash and then fish for dash attack > ff uair > reset > f smash and they’re dead. Lifesaver for a particularly hard matchup.

All these resets are, of course, situational. Good players tend to tech most of the time, so whelp time to finally practice tech chasing. Platforms obviously hurt our odds of resets, although ff u air > u smash with platforms is available. PS2 seems pretty good for greninja, you kinda just get the best of both worlds.

Sweet Spot dair > ff Nair > usmash is a “combo” by Nintendo’s standards, never got it to work in a competitive setting.

If you feel cheeky, side b links nicely out of back air if you read a neutral airdodge.

The most important combo I don’t see anyone mentioning is dash attack/dtilt > bair > bair. It kills half the cast if you snag their jump. You have to fullhop for the first bair and both of the timings are pretty strict but goddamn if its not effective. I might just try and make a video pretty soon showing off the timings and inputs for all these combos, if y’all have any recommendations let me know.
 

Firox

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Messages
2,122
#33
You guys are fantastic, really appreciate all the help this community has given me thru lurking. I Played a lot of fox in Smash 4, but switched to greninja in ultimate because he got the drag downs I wanted ;) here are my scatterbrained notes thus far:

been having a lot of luck with jab reset strings. Most reliably dash attack > ff uair > jab reset > f smash. You can actually repeat steps 1-3 on heavies if you catch them at a pretty specific percent. I’ll lab it all out soon and get back with y’all.

When I inevitably **** up d tilt > u smash and put them out of percent range I usually try and mix up Dtilt > ff uair > reset > f smash and d tilt > fair. U air catches jump spammers and d tilt can connect on people with patience.

If you hit all 3 hits of bair at 0% it puts them in a pretty tough tech situation. If you can reset off of it you have dash attack > u smash free. This only works on tall opponents.

Sour spot dair > ff uair > reset > smash attack has won me more tournament matches then it probably should have. By no means true. It’s just so weird that nobody really predicts it. Lines up nicely at around 90%. **** I really wish i had my switch rn so i could give you guys some specifics.

Resets have completely changed some matchups for me, specifically pichu/pika/squirtle. F smash kills so early on em that all you gotta do is fish for dash attack > u smash and then fish for dash attack > ff uair > reset > f smash and they’re dead. Lifesaver for a particularly hard matchup.

All these resets are, of course, situational. Good players tend to tech most of the time, so whelp time to finally practice tech chasing. Platforms obviously hurt our odds of resets, although ff u air > u smash with platforms is available. PS2 seems pretty good for greninja, you kinda just get the best of both worlds.

Sweet Spot dair > ff Nair > usmash is a “combo” by Nintendo’s standards, never got it to work in a competitive setting.

If you feel cheeky, side b links nicely out of back air if you read a neutral airdodge.

The most important combo I don’t see anyone mentioning is dash attack/dtilt > bair > bair. It kills half the cast if you snag their jump. You have to fullhop for the first bair and both of the timings are pretty strict but goddamn if its not effective. I might just try and make a video pretty soon showing off the timings and inputs for all these combos, if y’all have any recommendations let me know.
Wow, you got some really good stuff here. Please make that video with input timings! I need it so bad. I've been trying to consistently nail the dash attack->bair combo but still having a hard time landing it in a real fight. It's the last frontier of my Greninja training.
 
Joined
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Messages
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#34
alright boys, came back with some percent ranges. gonna work out the kinks on these and make a video showcasing all of them and their timings. if im missing anything big, let me know.



I apologize for the horrid posting format, easiest way since i made it in my mac notes lol.
 

MERPIS

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#35
What about dash attack to SHFF uair?
 

Firox

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
2,122
#37
I really love the SHFF up air combos but find myself having a hard time landing them before my opponent escapes. Is there some sort of trick or technique to landing it consistently? I usually perform it by tapping Y, then pushing up on the C-Stick while holding down on the left stick.
 
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winter is fun

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
5
#38
I really love the SHFF up air combos but find myself having a hard time landing them before my opponent escapes. Is there some sort of trick or technique to landing it consistently? I usually perform it by tapping Y, then pushing up on the C-Stick while holding down on the left stick.
There seems to be a pretty specific percent range that the SHFF is true after dash attack, at least on some characters. It also depends a lot on the hit of dash attack and the DI of your opponent. Try just working on your reaction to it in training.

Are you having problems fastfalling? I find it a lot easier to land them when I tap down on the Control Stick at the apex of my jump, as opposed to holding it.
 

Firox

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
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#39
There seems to be a pretty specific percent range that the SHFF is true after dash attack, at least on some characters. It also depends a lot on the hit of dash attack and the DI of your opponent. Try just working on your reaction to it in training.

Are you having problems fastfalling? I find it a lot easier to land them when I tap down on the Control Stick at the apex of my jump, as opposed to holding it.
Yeah, in my experience, SHFF up air only seems to be true from about 40-70ish%. As far as fast falling goes, I seem to be able to do it OK. I just wasn't sure if anyone was having better success with a different control scheme. I have jump mapped to left trigger as well but at the end of the day, I think I just need to practice getting the timing down frame perfect.
 

winter is fun

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
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#40
Yeah, in my experience, SHFF up air only seems to be true from about 40-70ish%. As far as fast falling goes, I seem to be able to do it OK. I just wasn't sure if anyone was having better success with a different control scheme. I have jump mapped to left trigger as well but at the end of the day, I think I just need to practice getting the timing down frame perfect.
I mapped jump to left trigger for a week after that MySmashCorner video came out, could never get used to it. I perform mine exactly as you describe, I guess just keep practicing man. Greninjas strings are so fun it doesnt even feel like practice to me lmao I love this frog.
 
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