Data Greninja Changes from Smash 4

MartinAW4

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#1
Greninja damage comparison
Greninja Smash 4 vs Ultimate v3.png


Kill percents vs Mario from the edge of Final Destination
Greninja KO% v2.png


Detailed notes on moves
Grab
:
- standing and pivot grabs got a 1 frame start-up buff at the cost of significantly longer end lag
- dash grab got +4 frames of start-up and +10 frames of end lag
Details:
Smash 4 Standing Grab = hitbox on frame 11, can shield soonest on frame 29
Smash Ultimate Standing Grab
= hitbox on frame 10, can shield soonest on frame 40

Smash 4 Dash Grab = hitbox on frame 9, can shield soonest on frame 38
Smash Ultimate Dash Grab
= hitbox on frame 13, can shield soonest on frame 48

Smash 4 Pivot Grab = hitbox on frame 15, can shield soonest on frame 37
Smash Ultimate Pivot Grab
= hitbox on frame 14, can shield soonest on frame 43
- difficult to shield grab moves due to more shield stun
- pivot grab range is huge, now it is displayed with a very long water hitbox
- dash into Standing Grab is now better than Dash Grab

Hydro Pump:
+ can do two pumps horizontally even on the ground. You can go twice in one direction or even once towards the opponent and then back to snipe them with water. In Smash 4 this was impossible to do on the ground. You had to jump in order to do it.
- sliding was almost entirely removed
- knockback from the water was reduced

Jab:
- Jab 1 and Jab 2 have weaker combo potential into other moves like Dtilt or Smashes
+ Rapid Jab is much more reliable though and can be kept going for some nice damage

Dtilt:
+ faster start-up than in Smash 4
+ comboes into Usmash more reliably
- combo into Fair is harder but still possible at high %
- lower damage

Dash Attack:
+ amazing move, one of Greninja's best
+ higher damage
+ comboes into Usmash at low percent
+ comboes into Uair or Fair and higher percents
+ harder to punish on shield
+ can even cross up opponents
- harder to combo into Fair, go for Uair or Usmash instead

Usmash:
+ hitboxes were improved so you can land the sweetspot on opponents standing on platforms
- Greninja's last move that still needs a bit of fixing. While it does work better, there are still cases when the first sweetspot hit does not lead to the second one or leads to the sourspot. And in general the move trades with other moves it should easily outrange.

Global change to short hop aerials:
- now all short hop aerials get a 0.85 damage modifier, which means they deal 15% less damage and very slightly less knockback (around 2% less knockback). This applies to all aerials and all characters in the game.

Nair:
+ harder to punish on shield
+ hitbox is active longer. From frames 12-16 in Smash 4 to 12-19 in Ultimate. This makes it a lot easier to land vs opponents.
- knockback angle at higher percents is worse for comboing into Fair
- still among the slowest Nairs in the game, probably the main move to consider buffing frame data wise (both start-up and end lag are really long for a Nair) with balance patches. It's still a good move though even at its current state, so the frame data buffs should be compensated by reducing its damage.

Fair:
+ knockback buffed nicely, now it kills as soon as you'd expect from a 14 damage move.
- timing for spacing fastfall Fairs changed. Now you need to use it sooner after the short hop so you land it on grounded opponents. Fair start-up is still 16 frames though like in Smash 4, so this change is actually due to the increase in Greninja air speed and not the actual move being nerfed.

Fully charged Shuriken:
+ damage has been buffed while retaining similar kill potential
+ travels faster and farther (this can catch people off guard who are used to your uncharged Shuriken range)
- size seems to be slightly reduced, making it easier to airdodge
- combos are harder but you can still get a Fair off it if you run after it at lower %


I will be progressively updating this thread as I find more info on its moves. Overall I am liking the new Greninja so far. It kills a lot more reliably and feels buffed overall.
 
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#2
View attachment 182196

Detailed notes on moves
Grab
:
- frame data seems nerfed for both the standing and dash grab
- difficult to shield grab moves because of how slow the grab comes out
- pivot grab range is huge, now it is displayed with a very long water hitbox

Hydro Pump:
+ can do two pumps horizontally even on the ground. You can go twice in one direction or even once towards the opponent and then back to snipe them with water. In Smash 4 this was impossible to do on the ground. You had to jump in order to do it.
- sliding was almost entirely removed
- knockback from the water seems reduced

Jab:
- Jab 1 and Jab 2 have weaker combo potential into other moves like Dtilt or Smashes
+ Rapid Jab is much more reliable though and can be kept going for some nice damage

Dtilt:
+ faster start-up than in Smash 4
+ comboes into Usmash more reliably
- combo into Fair is harder but still possible at high %
- lower damage

Dash Attack:
+ amazing move, one of Greninja's best
+ higher damage
+ comboes into Usmash at low percent
+ comboes into Uair or Fair and higher percents
+ harder to punish on shield
- harder to combo into Fair at lower percent

Usmash:
+ sourspot hits kill earlier
- still Greninja's jankiest move. Needs some hitbox fixing to function properly more often

Nair:
+ harder to punish on shield
- knockback angle at higher percents is worse for comboing into Fair

Fair:
+ knockback buffed nicely, now it kills as soon as you'd expect from a 14 damage move.
- timing for spacing fastfall Fairs definitely changed. I am still not sure if it is due to the faster Greninja air speed or longer start-up lag.

Fully charged Shuriken:
+ damage has been buffed
+ travels faster and farther (this can catch people off guard who are used to your uncharged Shuriken range)
- combos are harder but you can still get a Fair off it if you run after it at lower %


I will be progressively updating this thread as I find more info on its moves. I will also add a kill % comparison vs Mario on FD. Looking just at the percents you cannot see it but many of Greninja's moves got significant buffs to knockback. Overall I am liking the new Greninja so far. It kills a lot more reliably and feels buffed overall. I still need to get used to the new combos but I already found some very nice strings like Dthrow -> Dtilt -> Usmash at low % which were not possible before. I plan to make a separate combo thread later.
Good stuff thanks! Looking forward to your combos!
 

MartinAW4

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#3
Good stuff thanks! Looking forward to your combos!
Thanks, I'll focus on combos next. I just finished the kill percents comparison from Smash 4. I was using the 3DS version for Smash 4 testing, which has slightly closer side blast zones IIRC, so the moves you see killing within 10% earlier are likely unchanged. The vertical blastzones match 99% though, so for kills off the top the percents are accurate down to +/- 1%.
All the moves highlighted in green have definitely been buffed though.

Most notably:
- Shadow Sneak front kick now kills earlier than the back kick despite dealing less damage! It is almost as strong as the buffed Fsmash.
- Fthrow is now Greninja's strongest kill throw ever, killing Mario at 142% with no rage from the edge of the stage (compared to Uthrow at 176%)
- Substitute damage and knockback has been nerfed but it activates and hits more reliably and still comboes into kill moves.
- Fair is now stronger than pre-patch Smash 4 3DS Greninja's Fair even with the sourspot.
- Ftilt is now a decently strong and decently safe kill move. Might be useful for punishing get-up options from the ledge.
 

SJMistery

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#5
Wait a minute, FTilt has improved spacing and KO potential, Fthrow is now USEFUL, and Back Throw now kills at a reasonable percent, all three killing before Up Throw? What world we live in?
No Shadow Sneak Hitstun Cancel can be problematic, especially with the weight nerf. I hope you can still taunt cancel with it at least. If that can't be done anymore I am dropping him.

But in all seriousness, nice to hear that Fair now has a close-range sourspot, instead of lacking a close-range hitbox at all. But what about the hitbox shenanigans of FSmash and DSmash, did they get their blind spots fixed as well?

Sad to hear that we got stuck with a crappy grab again, and that Nair is still garbage. I hope dash grab is at least decent, to make some use out of the improved kill potential of the throws.

Substitute being actually useful and being able to combo and kill at 50 regardless of what you trigger it with sounds broken, not to the level of Witch Time, but pretty high up there. We will have to enjoy it before they inevitably get another dose of "Better Nerf Greninja"...
 
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MartinAW4

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#6
Wait a minute, FTilt has improved spacing and KO potential, Fthrow is now USEFUL, and Back Throw now kills at a reasonable percent, all three killing before Up Throw? What world we live in?
No Shadow Sneak Hitstun Cancel can be problematic, especially with the weight nerf. I hope you can still taunt cancel with it at least. If that can't be done anymore I am dropping him.

But in all seriousness, nice to hear that Fair now has a close-range sourspot, instead of lacking a close-range hitbox at all. But what about the hitbox shenanigans of FSmash and DSmash, did they get their blind spots fixed as well?

Sad to hear that we got stuck with a crappy grab again, and that Nair is still garbage. I hope dash grab is at least decent, to make some use out of the improved kill potential of the throws.

Substitute being actually useful and being able to combo and kill at 50 regardless of what you trigger it with sounds broken, not to the level of Witch Time, but pretty high up there. We will have to enjoy it before they inevitably get another dose of "Better Nerf Greninja"...
Uthrow has the benefit of killing from wherever. The Fthrow and Bthrow kill % are from the ledge so if you are near center stage, Uthrow is still the strongest kill throw.

SS Hitstun Cancel loss is not a big deal. It was unreliable and could get easily punished if baited out. Shadow Sneak is a lot stronger now and travels faster, which is a good trade for the loss of SSHC.

This is a good question regarding the blind spots of smashes. They have been completely fixed. It helps that players cannot run through you, but no matter how much I try, both Fsmash and Dsmash always hit the opponent. It seems like Sakurai really made sure to fix all of Greninja's malfunctioning moves and only Usmash needs a bit of tweaking. The rest was very well fixed.

Nair is a great combo starter, so I wouldn't call it garbage but its start-up is among the worst in the game for Nairs. Making it always sour spot but come out at frame 4 would definitely help with Greninja's biggest weakness. But I don't think Sakurai's priority will be competitive balance at least for the first 6-12 months when he'll likely focus on fixing the most broken moves and glitches that will be found.

Both grabs are unfortunately nerfed and pretty slow though. At least their range is good but in general it is not easy to land them. Pivot grab is huge though, so that might be our best option for now.

For Substitute, I tested it and it does not true combo into Uair or Nair anymore, so it should be safe from nerfs. It kills around 110% which is actually quite late. So it is more of a utility move that works well now, but nothing that would really need a nerf, especially compared to some of the broken moves other characters have that kill at 0%.
 

JaDato

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#7
Is any idea on what the changes were to Greninja in 1.2?

Awesome work on the launch data btw, this is fantastic!
 

SJMistery

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#8
Is any idea on what the changes were to Greninja in 1.2?

Awesome work on the launch data btw, this is fantastic!
As far as we know, only Isabelle and Duck Hunt were affected by 1.2

EDIT: Actually, Greninja WAS touched by the patch, but nothing to worry about. From SSBWiki:

- A visual glitch with Greninja's screen KO has been fixed.


So basically you look a little less stupid after messing up your DI and getting KOed off the top despite having one of the best vertical survivabilities in the game. Fair.


And the final big question of Greninja. Does the crouch still have that trash 1.0.4 hitbox above the head?
 
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MartinAW4

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#9
As far as we know, only Isabelle and Duck Hunt were affected by 1.2
I can confirm I tested all of Greninja's moves and both their damage and knockback were unchanged by patch 1.2 compared to 1.1. So the only change seems to be a fix to its screen KO animation.

I also tested the frame data on Greninja's Grabs compared to Smash 4 to see exactly how much they were nerfed. I compared it with the values listed on Kurogane Hammer:
Smash 4 Standing Grab = hitbox on frame 11, can shield soonest on frame 29
Smash Ultimate Standing Grab
= hitbox on frame 10, can shield soonest on frame 40

Smash 4 Dash Grab = hitbox on frame 9, can shield soonest on frame 38
Smash Ultimate Dash Grab
= hitbox on frame 13, can shield soonest on frame 48

Smash 4 Pivot Grab = hitbox on frame 15, can shield soonest on frame 37
Smash Ultimate Pivot Grab
= hitbox on frame 14, can shield soonest on frame 43

In general all of Greninja's grabs received a lot more end lag, so they are riskier to miss. Standing Grab and Dash Grab were hit especially hard.
Standing Grab used to come out later than Dash Grab but also end a lot faster, making it safer. However now Standing Grab both comes out faster and ends faster than Dash Grab, so it is better in pretty much every way (possibly except range which I didn't test).
So now instead of going for a dash grab, it is usually better to dash up to the opponent, release the analog stick and input grab to use a standing grab out of dash.

The good thing is that both Standing Grab and Pivot Grab now come out 1 frame faster, so that is at least one area where the grabs were buffed. Pivot Grab was also hit the least severly with extra end lag, so it is still a pretty good option to go for.

But overall Greninja's grab game got noticeably worse. I could feel the nerfs immediately even before comparing frame data. Though at least using the standing grabs out of dash is very comparable frame data wise to Dash Grabs in Smash 4.
 
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SJMistery

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#10
I can confirm I tested all of Greninja's moves and both their damage and knockback were unchanged by patch 1.2 compared to 1.1. So the only change seems to be a fix to its screen KO animation.

I also tested the frame data on Greninja's Grabs compared to Smash 4 to see exactly how much they were nerfed. I compared it with the values listed on Kurogane Hammer:
Smash 4 Standing Grab = hitbox on frame 11, can shield soonest on frame 29
Smash Ultimate Standing Grab
= hitbox on frame 10, can shield soonest on frame 40

Smash 4 Dash Grab = hitbox on frame 9, can shield soonest on frame 38
Smash Ultimate Dash Grab
= hitbox on frame 13, can shield soonest on frame 48

Smash 4 Pivot Grab = hitbox on frame 15, can shield soonest on frame 37
Smash Ultimate Pivot Grab
= hitbox on frame 14, can shield soonest on frame 43
...and that's it? Just that you are even more punishable, the way any noob capable of clumsily mistiming and mispacing with one of the largest grab hitboxes in the game deserves, instead of being able to jab the more skilled opponent out of the sidestep that he timed perfectly to avoid the grab? THAT is the big nerf? THAT is what everyone has been complaining about?

I tought we had gone back to the frame 15 standing grab thing that was practically unusable for defense compared to just jabbing out of shield, and just plain worthless for combos.

As for the dash grab, that startup nerf is barely even noticeable for the intended purpose of Dash Grabs, it can still be used to punish bad landings and laggy moves, all you need is press the button 1/15th of a second faster than before. Plus, with the new Dash Attack outclassing it for punishes AND combos anyway, the "can prevent previously true follow-ups" problem is irrelevant.
 
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MartinAW4

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#11
...and that's it? Just that you are even more punishable, the way any noob capable of clumsily mistiming and mispacing with one of the largest grab hitboxes in the game deserves, instead of being able to jab the more skilled opponent out of the sidestep that he timed perfectly to avoid the grab? THAT is the big nerf? THAT is what everyone has been complaining about?

I tought we had gone back to the frame 15 standing grab thing that was practically unusable for defense compared to just jabbing out of shield, and just plain worthless for combos.

As for the dash grab, that startup nerf is barely even noticeable for the intended purpose of Dash Grabs, it can still be used to punish bad landings and laggy moves, all you need is press the button 1/15th of a second faster than before. Plus, with the new Dash Attack outclassing it for punishes AND combos anyway, the "can prevent previously true follow-ups" problem is irrelevant.
A nerf is a nerf and adding this much end lag is definitely a big one. Though I do agree that grabs in Smash 4 were too good and the added end lag is good for the balance of character movesets. Grabs should only be the optimal punish for shielding opponents, not for every situation when you can get a punish.

I am not sure how other characters were affected with grab end lag, but most likely the main reason people are finding grabs to be nerfed does not come just from the added end lag but also from the higher shield stun which makes it harder to shield grab. This is also good for a more offensive playstyle, so I consider this a positive change as long as all characters were affected by it.

But Dash Grab is the only one I find to be poorly balanced. Before, when Dash Grab came out faster than Standing Grab, but was more punishable, both grabs had their uses. Now you have pretty much no reason to use Dash Grab instead of dashing into Standing Grab. And with 4 extra frames of start-up, that is almost 50% slower than before. You cannot just compensate it by starting it faster because with the buffering system, it is not hard to get frame-perfect inputs. There are actually several early % combos into Dash Grab which are not true anymore because of this nerf. Though you are correct about Dash Attack being able to replace Dash Grab in those combos while being better at it than Dash Grab ever was due to its better follow-ups.

Edit:
I added info on the 0.85 damage modifier to short hop aerials. That was the reason why it seemed like Greninja got sourspots on all of its aerials. But in reality those were just the short hop aerial damage values that apply to all characters. I updated the tables with the new info as well and listed the short hop damage in purple to distinguish it from the actual nerfs which are in red.
 
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SJMistery

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#12
BREAKING CHANGE: Hydro Pump no longer consumes the mid-air jump! That means intentionally landing face first into a wall to wallcling and stall, and THEN go for a jumping Uait/Fair to land on the stage or grab the ledge is now possible! We FINALLY have a semi-reliable way to cover our ledge grab!
 
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Mon-E

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#14
BREAKING CHANGE: Hydro Pump no longer consumes the mid-air jump! That means intentionally landing face first into a wall to wallcling and stall, and THEN go for a jumping Uait/Fair to land on the stage or grab the ledge is now possible! We FINALLY have a semi-reliable way to cover our ledge grab!
So u can upb into wall cling, walljump, and still use your double jump and an aerial?
 

SJMistery

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#17
So u can upb into wall cling, walljump, and still use your double jump and an aerial?
Exactly. You could use Side-B, aerials and wallcling before, but not the midair jump. Now you can.
 
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Mon-E

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#19
The real question is, how do u get the consistent drag down with u-air
 

SJMistery

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#20
The real question is, how do u get the consistent drag down with u-air
Just fast fall during the execution and land before the last hit, as usual. It's just easier now, as the ******** Smash4 1.0.4 nerf to Up Air got reverted so all intermedium hits now properly link.



And speaking of dragging people down, I know Substitute's knockback on the diagonal and upward angles got nerfed a little, but, what about the downwards spike? It is still a Ganondorf-level near OHKO spike?
 
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MartinAW4

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#21
Thanks everyone! Who are you guys watching on YouTube?
The top Greninja players are Lea and Somé from Japan, iStudying from Europe and Venia from New York. As a matter of fact, Venia just won a tournament, so I can give you a few games to watch. I was hoping he'd take longer to get used to the new Greninja changes. Greninja was passing under the radar nicely, even big name players like ZeRo and Leffen were totally clueless about his placement on their tier lists, but at this rate, he's going to get nerfed again.

This was in my opinion the best game of the tournament:

You can watch all the other games on the channel.

Also here are the links to the Japanese Greninja channels:
Somé channel: He's trying to pick up Inkling as his secondary right now, so there's also a lot of Inkling gameplay if you like that character.

Lea channel: Probably the best Greninja in the world right now

iStudying doesn't post videos on his channel but he did a collaboration with Armada so you can watch many of his games on Armada's channel and you are sure to see him placing high in European tournaments. This time he has a much better chance at finally beating Mr. R now that Greninja doesn't have such a bad matchup vs Sheik anymore. He was the one who showed top level Greninja play in Smash 4 to the west for the first time at Beast 6 since the Japanese players didn't travel to USA back then. So he was and still is considered by many to be the best Greninja player.
 

SJMistery

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#22
Two more questions about Shadow Sneak:
Does Shadow Sneak still get prioritized over Hydro Pump on a diagonal input when in mid-air?
And, charging the move in midair take you out of tumbling animation, or does it still keep you on it, causing you to smash face first on the ground if not released before landing?

And one question that still didn't get answered. Did the head hitbox get fixed, AKA can you crouch and crawl below lasers again?
 

MartinAW4

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#23
Two more questions about Shadow Sneak:
Does Shadow Sneak still get prioritized over Hydro Pump on a diagonal input when in mid-air?
And, charging the move in midair take you out of tumbling animation, or does it still keep you on it, causing you to smash face first on the ground if not released before landing?

And one question that still didn't get answered. Did the head hitbox get fixed, AKA can you crouch and crawl below lasers again?
The diagonal input giving you Shadow Sneak instead of Hydro Pump was fixed.

Charging Shadow Sneak does not take you out of tumble. You need to release it first otherwise you crash onto the ground.

And Greninja still cannot crouch under Fox lasers. Only some parts of the backwards crawl manage to avoid getting hit just like in Smash 4.
 

SJMistery

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#24
The diagonal input giving you Shadow Sneak instead of Hydro Pump was fixed.

Charging Shadow Sneak does not take you out of tumble. You need to release it first otherwise you crash onto the ground.

And Greninja still cannot crouch under Fox lasers. Only some parts of the backwards crawl manage to avoid getting hit just like in Smash 4.
Well, at least the first one got fixed. Fortunately the other two are less important now with the general improvements of Shadow Sneak and Substitute.
 

Mon-E

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#25
Just fast fall during the execution and land before the last hit, as usual. It's just easier now, as the ******** Smash4 1.0.4 nerf to Up Air got reverted so all intermedium hits now properly link.
Thanks for the info! When do you start holding down in the execution? I can't ever get it consistent
 

Mon-E

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#26
Thanks for the vids by the way, honestly once Greninja master the hydro pump angles it's gonna be ez gimps with that and side b and down b off stage
 

MartinAW4

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#28
Thanks for the vids by the way, honestly once Greninja master the hydro pump angles it's gonna be ez gimps with that and side b and down b off stage
Hydro Pump knockback got nerfed though, so it is hard to gimp most recoveries with it alone, even if you hit them. It still does work very well vs Chrom's, Ike's, Ness's and even Fox's recovery.

This is one of the aspects Venia could have done better by going for Hydro Pump to edgeguard Fox instead of Substitute. It is easier to hit, sets up for easy edgeguards and even if you miss you are not left in such a bad situation as missing Substitute or Shadow Sneak off stage, which often got him reverse edgeguarded.

But for most other recoveries, Hydro Pump usually makes them go above the stage, giving you a good opportunity to punish their helpless landing with a Smash attack or Dtilt into Usmash or Fair.

Edit:
And another tournament win for Greninja, this time in Japan by Lea, cleanly 3-0ing even Shuton in Grand Finals (Shuton won the first biggest Japanese tounament with over 700 entrants). Here's the match:

This is not looking good for Greninja, especially since this was in Japan where Sakurai will be paying closer attention to the results. I was really hoping that the Greninja mains would take longer to get used to the changes before starting to win tournaments to avoid the first wave of nerfs. But it's looking more and more likely each day that the better nerf Greninja meme will live on.
 
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bc1910

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#29
And another tournament win for Greninja, this time in Japan by Lea, cleanly 3-0ing even Shuton in Grand Finals (Shuton won the first biggest Japanese tounament with over 700 entrants). Here's the match:

This is not looking good for Greninja, especially since this was in Japan where Sakurai will be paying closer attention to the results. I was really hoping that the Greninja mains would take longer to get used to the changes before starting to win tournaments to avoid the first wave of nerfs. But it's looking more and more likely each day that the better nerf Greninja meme will live on.
I never even thought of Substituting attached Pikmin. The slowdown effect actually works on Olimar too! That's honestly mental, I was sitting there open mouthed at some of the punishes and kills he was getting. Awesome stuff from Lea.

Things are looking real good for froggo. Poor OOS honestly seems like his only big weakness and it's not that abusable if, like the good Greninjas, you don't rely on shield with him.

I hate that meme with passion, but I do feel like I can feel Sakurai reaching for the nerf bat... I might throw a few matches with Greninja in Quickplay just to be safe, haha. Perhaps we will avoid the nerfs since Greninja's not actually dominating plus takes a lot of skill to use correctly? It's not like he's particularly degenerate or easy to spam with like in the original 3DS days. I do feel like Fair's not gonna survive in its current state unfortunately, it just blows people up.
 

MartinAW4

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#30
I never even thought of Substituting attached Pikmin. The slowdown effect actually works on Olimar too! That's honestly mental, I was sitting there open mouthed at some of the punishes and kills he was getting. Awesome stuff from Lea.

Things are looking real good for froggo. Poor OOS honestly seems like his only big weakness and it's not that abusable if, like the good Greninjas, you don't rely on shield with him.

I hate that meme with passion, but I do feel like I can feel Sakurai reaching for the nerf bat... I might throw a few matches with Greninja in Quickplay just to be safe, haha. Perhaps we will avoid the nerfs since Greninja's not actually dominating plus takes a lot of skill to use correctly? It's not like he's particularly degenerate or easy to spam with like in the original 3DS days. I do feel like Fair's not gonna survive in its current state unfortunately, it just blows people up.
Fair is overall probably our best move, so a nerf to that would definitely hurt. But Lea is getting better by the day. His punishes are already crazy optimized, involving all the Bair follow ups, drag down Uairs into jab locks, which he comboes into Dtilt > Usmash, really good use of Substitute and vs bigger body heavies, he's already getting 0-deaths like in his newest video at 2:23:22 or 2:40:47 here:

Sakurai did say they will be making balance patches based on Elite smash, so if they see what Lea is doing to the poor randoms, they might get the wrong idea very quickly.

Luckily Greninja isn't dominating as many tournaments as in early Smash 4, but overall I think he is better now than he was even in pre-patch Smash 4. Despite this, he doesn't seem overpowered to the point of needing nerfs. He has clear strengths and weaknesses and there are several characters in the game that are far more overtuned than Greninja with stronger and easier to abuse moves. Greninja requires so much precision and skill to be good, which is why most people who do not main him think he is bad. You can't just pick him up and do well like with many other top tiers. We just happen to have two of the strongest Greninja players directly in Japan which makes him seem stronger than he actually is.

That was the problem in Smash 4 as well. Even pre-patch he was probably not even top 10 in the game, yet he got nerfed the hardest in several patches in a row because one of Japan's best players happened to pick him up. They nerfed Fair, Uair and Hydro Pump knockback, Water Shuriken frame data and for Usmash (which was admittedly broken) they both heavily nerfed its frame data and also the knockback and damage on sourspots while the true monsters like Diddy Kong, Sheik and Rosalina were mostly untouched because they were dominating America and not Japan.

So I just hope the balance team looks at worldwide results more closely this time and doesn't overdo it with the nerfs.
 
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