Grandpa SFP's Crazy ZSS Video Detective Service

[Supermodel From Paris]

Hi, this is a thread where you ask for stuff and I find the answers and (if applicable or possible or reasonable) provide an answer and video evidence. This is good, because it finally gets stupid **** no one can agree upon on video, answers questions, and increases my post count. It also gives me a lot of favors to call in later down the line, which is good too. I can also make videos of stuff you know is real or you need video evidence to prove.

Here's stuff I can do:

- Frame advantage/data requests
- "Does this combo work"
- SFP can you make a video of this thing happening just so we have one
- Most anything in the "can't do" list

Here's stuff I can't do:

- Hitbubbles/hurtbubbles
- Things that absolutely require two people to execute
- Anything else I say I can't do after you ask me

Generally speaking I will make an effort to do your Thing and if I can't do it, I'll come back and explain why I can't or don't want to. This should be pretty rare, but like, I'm not going to test Xonar's Smashville Infinite or put it on video because that requires hours of practicing a combo that no one will ever do anyway.

The backlog of requests will also be in this post. When you make a request you will go at the bottom. After your request is complete and the video (if your request needs a video) is made, I'll put it here, in the second post and date it.

You can submit multiple requests but please understand that I am married, supposedly have some kind of life to attend to, and occasionally like to do things like dishes and vacuuming. So please understand that while you can submit as many requests as you like, I may ultimately decide that you're a huge loser and like, totally not invite you to my next party. Requests might also take a while because I have stuff to do.

The first video and request are already completed: V115's request, available in the second post of this thread.

Current requests:

Something I always wanted to know
Frame disadvantage of lasers (both charged and uncharged) on block, when the opponent is shielding right next to ZSS (ie they shield the laser on the first frame that it's out)

Why Bair in 2013?

Also, I noticed Choco used Weak Hit Uair as a followup to his Dsmash combos at various times. Could you speculate on when it is worth more damage to go for the strong hit Uair in comparison of using weak hit Uair and attempting to follow that up for additional damage in comparison to the risk of not getting the followup thereby giving less damage?

What is landing Uair's ideal frame advantage on hit and Nair's ideal frame advantage on hit and using initial dash internal character mechanic values, which characters is it safe to landing Nair/Uair against assuming the move is spaced to maximum disjoint and full retreat, the opponent is at a full run shield cancel in terms of momentum, and the opponent's reaction time isn't a factor when acting out of shield?

Which characters does a spaced dtilt beat their shield grab range? Spaced Jab 1?

What is the minimum height in relation to the landing point required for ZSS to auto-cancel down air? What is the minimum height in relation to the closest ledge required for ZSS to tether the ledge using plasma wire without the use of a double jump? With the use of a double jump and not dying from the bottom blast line?

Could you make frame by frame videos of ZSS aerial grab release followups on MK and Toon Link please?

Does SDIing Jab1 or Jab 2 affect a character's ability to shield jab 3 and if so how much does it matter and which characters does it matter on (frames please)?

How much does using turn around and reversal versions of flip jump augment her spacing orientation in terms of IGUs in the context of executing flip jump kick cancels?

What percents will a non-teched dash attack combo into a down smash on the top tiered characters?

Can you test how buffered pummeling and unbuffered pummeling affect the stale moves queue?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Request 1: 4/22/2013
V115 Asks: "What is jab2's advantage on hit?"
Answer: -7. The opponent can act 7 frames before you can do another non-jab3 move. In other words, bend over.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7AOErEHDQI

Request 2: 5/07/2013
DeLux: "When does Jab 1 knock characters out of dsmash stun?"
Answer: 39%. At 39%, jabbing an opponent will not break dsmash stun. This means that when you dsmash, your opponent must have taken at least 28% damage.
Video: none

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Reserveded

 

[infiniteV115]

Do I need to learn how to count or is that -7, because it looks like -7.
I've watched it like 10 times and it looks like there are 7 frames where MK can shield and ZSS can't.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You're right, it's 7. I miscounted once, and then typed it the same way all over the internet

That's why I added video, in case I **** up. So there's documentation of what I see.

 

[infiniteV115]

Something I always wanted to know
Frame disadvantage of lasers (both charged and uncharged) on block, when the opponent is shielding right next to ZSS (ie they shield the laser on the first frame that it's out)

 

[SoulJoker]

Frame disadvantage of Side-B on shield. Sweet spot and the wire part.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Frame disadvantage of Side-B on shield. Sweet spot and the wire part.

They are both -11. This is very old, well-known information!

 

[infiniteV115]

I have trouble believing the sourspot (the little electric wire thingy that does like 2%) is only -11, it seems much worse than that...and it seems like it should be.
There's more of an animation to go through after hitting the shield compared to the sweetspot, and it does significantly less damage and knockback = less shield stun, correct?

Though I too did know the sweetspot was -11.

 

[Dakpo]

What is our frame advantage if we perfectly Jab Cancel Jab 1 into another Jab 1?

 

[infiniteV115]

Jab1 cancel is -3 on hit.

 

[DeLux]

Why Bair in 2013?

Also, I noticed Choco used Weak Hit Uair as a followup to his Dsmash combos at various times. Could you speculate on when it is worth more damage to go for the strong hit Uair in comparison of using weak hit Uair and attempting to follow that up for additional damage in comparison to the risk of not getting the followup thereby giving less damage?

What is landing Uair's ideal frame advantage on hit and Nair's ideal frame advantage on hit and using initial dash internal character mechanic values, which characters is it safe to landing Nair/Uair against assuming the move is spaced to maximum disjoint and full retreat, the opponent is at a full run shield cancel in terms of momentum, and the opponent's reaction time isn't a factor when acting out of shield?

Which characters does a spaced dtilt beat their shield grab range? Spaced Jab 1?

What is the minimum height in relation to the landing point required for ZSS to auto-cancel down air? What is the minimum height in relation to the closest ledge required for ZSS to tether the ledge using plasma wire without the use of a double jump? With the use of a double jump and not dying from the bottom blast line?

Could you make frame by frame videos of ZSS aerial grab release followups on MK and Toon Link please?

Does SDIing Jab1 or Jab 2 affect a character's ability to shield jab 3 and if so how much does it matter and which characters does it matter on (frames please)?

How much does using turn around and reversal versions of flip jump augment her spacing orientation in terms of IGUs in the context of executing flip jump kick cancels?

What percents will a non-teched dash attack combo into a down smash on the top tiered characters?

When does Jab 1 knock characters out of dsmash stun?

Can you test how buffered pummeling and unbuffered pummeling affect the stale moves queue?

Can I get all these answers by Saturday because I have a tournament on Sunday

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Getting to this thread on Monday. Sorry for the delay, I've been on vacation. <3 DeLux LOL

 

[NickRiddle]

SDI does affect being able to shield jab3 btw.

 

[Demna]

I've been playing with ZSS for around 5 months now, I know how to perform most of her ATs. However, if you would like at minute 1:18 in this video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svlTZsW0R94
Salem does a backwards-wavebounce off a footstooled down special. I am able to perform most wavebounces, but the one Salem did was incredible, Im sure Nick Riddle is able to pull it off as well.

Any suggestions on how to do that wavebounce?

 

[DeLux]

It's not a wave bounce it's a reversal

Recognizing what it is will help you figure out how to make the inputs. If you're trying to wave bounce you'd end up facing the wrong way

 

[Demna]

It's not a wave bounce it's a reversal

Recognizing what it is will help you figure out how to make the inputs. If you're trying to wave bounce you'd end up facing the wrong way

I beg to differ, it is a wavebounce and not a reversal. In the video I linked above, ZSS went to the opposite way that she was suppose to be going. Please have another look at the video (time 1:18)

 

[infiniteV115]

You're wrong. It's a b-reversal, not a wavebounce.
Both result in the momentum shift, but a wavebounce would have kept ZSS facing the right.

http://smashboards.com/threads/turnaround-bs-b-reverses-and-wavebounces-know-the-difference.334389/

[jumpname]specials[/jumpname]Specials:

Neutral Special (Neutral-B, B) [Universal] - The action that occurs from a special input with the control stick in a neutral position. Each Neutral Special has a character-specific name.
Forward Special (Side Special, Side-B) [Universal] - The action that occurs from a special input and a tilt or smash left or right. Each Forward Special has a character-specific name.
Up Special (Up-B) [Universal] - The action that occurs from a special input and a tilt or smash up. Each Up Special has a character-specific name.
Down Special (Down-B) [Universal] - The action that occurs from a special input and a tilt or smash down. Each Down Special has a character-specific name.
Turnaround-B [Universal] - The turnaround of neutral special is done by tapping the opposite direction with the control stick and doing neutral special within 20 frames after the tap. Other special turnarounds are done by pressing in the opposite direction and the special's direction.
B-Reverse (Reversal-B) [Universal] - The turnaround in the air that reverses your momentum. It is performed by pressing in the opposite direction you are facing AFTER you perform the special.
Wavebounce (Recoil-Special) [Universal] - The reversal of momentum that occurs when you combine a Turnaround-B and B-Reverse. You will face the same direction that you did before.

 

[Demna]

You're wrong. It's a b-reversal, not a wavebounce.
Both result in the momentum shift, but a wavebounce would have kept ZSS facing the right.

http://smashboards.com/threads/turnaround-bs-b-reverses-and-wavebounces-know-the-difference.334389/

Alright, it's a very slight difference between wavebounce and B-reversal. However, they both have to do with momentum shift and that's why I came here. I am curious on how the ZSS in that video performed her B-reversal. I tried practicing but I couldn't pull it out. Any suggestions?

 

[infiniteV115]

The inputs are listed in the first link in my last post, so check that thread and make sure you're using the right inputs.
If you're using the right inputs and still not getting it, you're probably just not doing it quickly enough. Just practice some more.

 

[Spaghetti]

actually, i believed it was a wavebounce until i learned to do it myself - the funny thing about zss's down b when you flipstool someone is that you're flying horizontally away from the person you flipstooled (obviously), but you're still FACING backwards.

so b-reversing will have the effect you saw in the video - you reverse your direction and momentum, so you're now going back off the stage and flying diagonally and facing them again and firing your neutral b.

edit: the easy way to remember how to do it is to slam the analog in the direction that you're flying when you flipstool - if you're stage left and you down b and flip to the right of some guy on the edge, then you press b and immediately press right and you'll have that effect. and vice versa

 

[infiniteV115]

No that's not how it works, because if you flipstool backwards (eg if Salem had flipstooled to the right in that scenario at 1:18) then he would still be facing right. The direction you're facing is basically where you down B'd from relative to your opponent; Salem was on Ally's right when he down B'd, so he was facing right during the flipstool.

The best way to remember is to slam the analog in the same direction that you downB'd, not in the same direction that you fly during the flipstool.

 

[Spaghetti]

oh that's really odd. never knew that - i've never used the flipstool to go in the opposite direction of the original down b lmao

good to know though

 

[Demna]

Thanks for the info guys, will come in handy.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why Bair in 2013?

Also, I noticed Choco used Weak Hit Uair as a followup to his Dsmash combos at various times. Could you speculate on when it is worth more damage to go for the strong hit Uair in comparison of using weak hit Uair and attempting to follow that up for additional damage in comparison to the risk of not getting the followup thereby giving less damage?

What is landing Uair's ideal frame advantage on hit and Nair's ideal frame advantage on hit and using initial dash internal character mechanic values, which characters is it safe to landing Nair/Uair against assuming the move is spaced to maximum disjoint and full retreat, the opponent is at a full run shield cancel in terms of momentum, and the opponent's reaction time isn't a factor when acting out of shield?

Which characters does a spaced dtilt beat their shield grab range? Spaced Jab 1?

What is the minimum height in relation to the landing point required for ZSS to auto-cancel down air? What is the minimum height in relation to the closest ledge required for ZSS to tether the ledge using plasma wire without the use of a double jump? With the use of a double jump and not dying from the bottom blast line?

Could you make frame by frame videos of ZSS aerial grab release followups on MK and Toon Link please?

Does SDIing Jab1 or Jab 2 affect a character's ability to shield jab 3 and if so how much does it matter and which characters does it matter on (frames please)?

How much does using turn around and reversal versions of flip jump augment her spacing orientation in terms of IGUs in the context of executing flip jump kick cancels?

What percents will a non-teched dash attack combo into a down smash on the top tiered characters?

When does Jab 1 knock characters out of dsmash stun?

Can you test how buffered pummeling and unbuffered pummeling affect the stale moves queue?

Can I get all these answers by Saturday because I have a tournament on Sunday

o_O

DeLux... you may be waiting a while...

Anyway, started working on a few of these (and v115's). Not all require videos. Anything that requires me to test on the whole cast is subject to me, like, never doing them.

Updated with one (easy) request.

 

[Demna]

In order to perfom an aerial attack (Usually B-air or F-air), after down-smashing, you need to wait a specific timeset in order for the aerial attacks to connect. However, characters such as Snake, Bowser, and DK don't need a timeset in order for the aerial attack to connect. Does the timeset after downsmashing to perform the aerial attack differ from character to character?

 

[NickRiddle]

You're talking about rising aerials?
Just do falling ones unless you're double d-smashing.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That's based solely on character height and nothing else AFAIK.

 

[Demna]

You're talking about rising aerials?
Just do falling ones unless you're double d-smashing.

I'm talking about double d-smash into an aerial attack

 

[infiniteV115]

At high/kill %s, you have enough time to double dsmash ---> falling aerial.
Otherwise, you have to do a double dsmash --> rising aerial. Just play a lot and always double dsmash, you'll get the timing eventually.

 

[Demna]

At high/kill %s, you have enough time to double dsmash ---> falling aerial.
Otherwise, you have to do a double dsmash --> rising aerial. Just play a lot and always double dsmash, you'll get the timing eventually.

I have the timing down since I gained the experiance, but what I'm trying to say is that if each character has his own timing? As in detailed information for each character if it can be provided, just want to increase my knowledge on the move. I can perform the technique greatly regardless.

 

[infiniteV115]

Pretty sure it's just character height like SFP said

The stun time on ZSS' dsmash varies with staleness and the opponent's %, I don't think anything else affects it.

 

[fkacyan]

See what characters dsmash > footstool > platformcancel > firsthit fair > OPTIONALFTILTS > dsmash works on on Smashville.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

See what characters dsmash > footstool > platformcancel > firsthit fair > OPTIONALFTILTS > dsmash works on on Smashville.

All of them. Next!

 

[DeLux]

How long does a ZSS main have to wait to get his list of questions answered, to the nearest frame please

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why Bair in 2013?

Because bair in 2013

Also, I noticed Choco used Weak Hit Uair as a followup to his Dsmash combos at various times. Could you speculate on when it is worth more damage to go for the strong hit Uair in comparison of using weak hit Uair and attempting to follow that up for additional damage in comparison to the risk of not getting the followup thereby giving less damage?

This thread is not really for speculation on my behalf (what exactly is that worth anyway?) but my feeling is that weak uair is almost never worth anything, controversial as that may seem. It doesn't combo into anything, ever, and does the same amount of damage.

If someone is at a particularly high percentage but you don't think you can kill them or follow up on them after knocking them out of dsmash stun, I guess you might try going for a soft uair and reading an airdodge, but it's better to just do a third dsmash... it doesn't always do more damage (a completely stale dsmash is only 6% and a fresh uair is 7%) but the subsequent airdodge read will be easier IMO.

What is landing Uair's ideal frame advantage on hit and Nair's ideal frame advantage on hit and using initial dash internal character mechanic values, which characters is it safe to landing Nair/Uair against assuming the move is spaced to maximum disjoint and full retreat, the opponent is at a full run shield cancel in terms of momentum, and the opponent's reaction time isn't a factor when acting out of shield?

Uh yeah I'm not going to do the second this, there are too many factors to consider, I'm too lazy to frame-by-frame something on the entire cast, and I can't think of a way to test it accurately without involving another player (which is a human resource I currently lack).

Which characters does a spaced dtilt beat their shield grab range? Spaced Jab 1?

Spaced jab 1 barely beats dedede's grab range (requires pixel-perfect spacing though)... I think only charizard has longer standing grab range (please don't quote me on that) so it shouldn't be hard to imagine who else you can beat and how. Dtilt doesn't really beat anyone's standing grab because it moves her hurtbox towards them, plus a few good characters can dash grab it. Dtilt isn't safe on shield.

What is the minimum height in relation to the landing point required for ZSS to auto-cancel down air? What is the minimum height in relation to the closest ledge required for ZSS to tether the ledge using plasma wire without the use of a double jump? With the use of a double jump and not dying from the bottom blast line?

This is pretty hard to test consistently without a second person. If you can come up with a a solid testing method I'll give this one a go. I'm also not exactly sure how I should measure it. I could just make a video showing the maximum possible spacing.

How much does using turn around and reversal versions of flip jump augment her spacing orientation in terms of IGUs in the context of executing flip jump kick cancels?

I tested this pretty extensively and it seems the only thing that really matters is the physical location ZSS was when you used down-b and nothing else. If you want to change the location of your flip jump your best option is a stutter-step down-b.

I also tested whether or not flip kicks in different directions affect whether or not you can cancel on a platform, and it doesn't, which is weird. I definitely expected it to.

By the way, the way you wrote this left me a little unsure of what you actually wanted, so I hope I answered your question. But either way, it should help you to know that if you start the down-b

What percents will a non-teched dash attack combo into a down smash on the top tiered characters?

Can you test how buffered pummeling and unbuffered pummeling affect the stale moves queue?

Can I get all these answers by Saturday because I have a tournament on Sunday

Getting to these later, I have to go

 

[PEACE7]

**** good **** SFP just noticed this thread

Oh and i think i got a replay of Xonar's infinite i'll check if i can find it!

 

[DeLux]

So then I guess the only tangible benefit on Dtilt in comparison to jab1 is the followup potential at the expense of disjoint?

And as far as ranges go, I meant on shield hit to shield grab, not clashing for grab armor, just so we're on the same page.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

So then I guess the only tangible benefit on Dtilt in comparison to jab1 is the followup potential at the expense of disjoint?

And as far as ranges go, I meant on shield hit to shield grab, not clashing for grab armor, just so we're on the same page.

You forgot damage, but yes, this is more or less the case. Jab's disjoint is enormous. On the other hand, jab 1 isn't safe on hit, technically. There's not much of a chance with someone catching you with anything if you jab 1 and run away, but technically speaking, they could. The reality is that jab 1 as a 1 frame move is so fast that no human being alive is going to be able to recognize that you've jabbed until after you start running away, and even if they could it would take an exceptionally quick move to punish it.

Meant to reply to these... I forgot because I ran out of time:

Could you make frame by frame videos of ZSS aerial grab release followups on MK and Toon Link please?

Yes. Tomorrow (probably).

Does SDIing Jab1 or Jab 2 affect a character's ability to shield jab 3 and if so how much does it matter and which characters does it matter on (frames please)?

I'll collect frame data for you if you'd like, but this works the same on every character: SDI on jab 1 affects how jab 2 hits, which means that SDI up on jab 1 will leave them too far off the ground to shield jab 3, while SDI down will just make jab 3 perfect shieldable (so basically, no effect). SDI's effect on jab 2 and 3 is well-known... you can SDI down and shield, everyone can.

I know a lot of these answers are incomplete, but I wanted to get some follow-up from you and give you as much information as I have right now.

@V115: should be able to get to you tomorrow.

 

[infiniteV115]

Okay so apparently moves become less safe on block as they stale...so when does dsmash become -6 on block? -5? How bad does it get?
Same goes for jab1 cancel on hit.

Edit: And charged dsmash. God I hope that **** is never shieldgrabbable.