Grab specials anyone?

[gothrax]

what happens when you press B while grabbing? Time to discuss!!​

Lols I'm making this here thread because of an idea i once had

Spoiler

those who wanna fight me for the rights can just bring it!! cuz i had this idea when i was born

reasons​

New smash why not?

I'm sure all of you know that In the original smash64
There was no Fspecial/(NTR for some chars)
And in melee they changed that by ADDING a Fspecial.
Now admittedly they didn't add a new attack to brawl other then the final smash... but they could add a new one for sm4sh?
One: because there will probably be a few changes to gameplay so why not improve?
Second: grab specials should have been in brawl to begin with ~_-

premise​

Its simple you grab someone then press B to perform a "grab special"
i shall now be calling it a GSP from now on got it?......

possible outcomes​

Now as i mentioned earlier smash64 didn't have any Fspecials
And more importantly some chars in melee had there NTRspecial changed to a Fspecial (link and jiggly puff)
so in my mind that means some characters might get one of there moves CHANGED to a GSP and therefore gain a new special.....

I imagine Most of the characters in this case would have a "grab LIKE" special that would then be changed to a GSP

examples of characters that would be effected by the GSP​

Bowser: if a GSP is implemented then i imagine his Fspecial would change to a GSP and in its place maybe a longer range fire ball? Or maybe his evil magic galaxy twirl?

Diddy: i could believe that they would change his grab into his monkey hump somehow?

Spoiler

or just get rid of the humping part... geez this is a kidsgame guys

and thus his GSP would smack you and throw himself into the air?
And he'd of caurse get a new Fspecial maybe another projectile? Maybe a better version of the cartwheel?

DK: with a GSP i can see his Fspecial being turned into a barrel roll

Spoiler

finally....

And then his GSP is he head butts you into the ground.

Game&watch: this ones doubtful but i think its possible? That his random hammer might become a GSP
And then he'd get a new Fspecial... but this is just speculation.

Ganondorf: perhaps his garudo would turn into his grab?(improving distance by alot) and his GSP would be the flame choke part...

Spoiler

though i think he should suck the life out of you like shang tsung

and then that leaves room for a new Fspecial.... lightning projectile?

Kirby: now i know I'm probably gonna get hate... alot of hate for this
But what if kirby's grab became his swallow? And his GSP be his copy ability?.....
hay look on the bright side he'd get a new NTRspecial... mach tornado?

King dedede: and hay why not dedede swallow you for his GSP
And then dedede would get a new NTRspecial unfortunately i can't think of exactly what it would be...
but i imagine it being something indirect :/

Wario: his GSP could be he stuffs you in his mouth and thus starts his "chomp"? or you could make his grab be his chomp and his pummel chew on you? Either way he'd get a new NTR special,
Which could? Be the bike and his Fspecial change to elbow? But that might be goin a little far... anyway credits to :dokotabones:.........~_~ why didn't i think of this one?

Yoshi: first make yoshis grab the same as his NTRspecial and then make his GSP turn you into an egg? Problem solved....
other then yoshis new NTR special. Which could be a variety of things


And thats all the examples i can think of for GSP's that would replace other already existing specials
If i or someone else comes up with any more i'll update the thread.

So? Have any GSP idea's?? have any replacing GSP idea's?? Have any thoughts on GSP's?? well this is where they are to be discussed.......

Spoiler

Unless of course a moderator comes in and tells me that someone has already made a thread like this

 

[DakotaBonez]

Why does this make so much sense?

A Grab Special would be great for Wario! His Neutral Special where he chomps down on his opponents can become a grab special. Converting this to his grab special would be perfect so he can use his hands to shove opponents into his mouth.

For the sake of retaining his ability to consume items, just make it so he has to pick up items and then press B before eating them.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Definitely, I very much support more and more attacks, so I really would like to see grab specials.

 

[Big-Cat]

Just to raise an important question: What's the difference between special grabs and regular throws? In other games, the big difference between a command grab (as special grabs are referred to as) and a throw is that you can break out of the throw with a proper read. You can only stop a command grab with a counter or evading it in some fashion such as jumping.

 

[gothrax]

Just to raise an important question: What's the difference between special grabs and regular throws? In other games, the big difference between a command grab (as special grabs are referred to as) and a throw is that you can break out of the throw with a proper read. You can only stop a command grab with a counter or evading it in some fashion such as jumping.

Umm.... what i think your talking about is the difference between a special grab and a grab special(or GSP as I'm calling it) and a GSP is activated AFTER a successful grab.

But you did make me think of something in that there should be a GRAB CANCEL TECHNIQUE where your able to stop a grab from connecting like in the latest SC or in MK9?

 

[MelMoe]

Grab specials isn't a bad idea at all & I welcome more move possibilities.

Speaking of grabs, I would like tether grabs to be quick aerial grabs.

 

[gothrax]

Grab specials isn't a bad idea at all & I welcome more move possibilities.

Speaking of grabs, I would like tether grabs to be quick aerial grabs.

Hay whatdya know i just commented on a different thread about how i wanted aerial grabs aerial shields ect. And maybe its not such a crazy idea after all? I'll put more thought into it...

 

[Big-Cat]

But you did make me think of something in that there should be a GRAB CANCEL TECHNIQUE where your able to stop a grab from connecting like in the latest SC or in MK9?

Yes, but that mechanic has been around for years.

 

[gothrax]

Well nonetheless its never been in smash
And i suppose it would be done with either grabbing while the player is grabbing at you?
Or maybe a quick roll of the control stick?

I dont actually know how to do em in fighting games cuz i really haven't played very many?

 

[Ferio_Kun]

I'm all for special grabs. What I would like to see more on the grab level (before getting into special grabs) are aerial grabs.

We've needed aerial grabs for a while now.

 

[DakotaBonez]

I was thinking about aerial grabs. Would you be able to decide the direction your opponent is thrown in while performing an aerial grab? If So wouldn't you always just throw them down which would make for the easiest KO's. And if they made it like most fighting games where its automatic, then the aerial grab would toss them down anyway. Because smash bros style just doesn't work with Aerial grabs I am siding with Special grabs.

 

[gothrax]

Not if theres a big risk to aerial grabs, i think that if you perform an aerial grab AND MISS then when the anim ends you go into that blinking falling state(cant remember the name)

And thusly if you are off stage trying to throw someone down then you could just as easily kill yourself :/

 

[Lechteron]

I don't know if it should be that disastrous on a miss. It should definitely have some heavy lag to recover from though. Really it should be about as dangerous as attempting a meteor attack.

 

[Ussi]

I want to see throw teching first

 

[Pyra]

Not if theres a big risk to aerial grabs, i think that if you perform an aerial grab AND MISS then when the anim ends you go into that blinking falling state(cant remember the name)

And thusly if you are off stage trying to throw someone down then you could just as easily kill yourself :/

Woah. I don't think missing an aerial grab should result in being forced into helplessness (did I get the right term? I only just recently restarted my competitive studies).

And, on the second point... It would be much easier if downwards aerial throws weren't bothered with. The way you put it would make it just a tad bit more annoying than trying to spike someone, whilst missing and quick-falling.

 

[gothrax]

Well.... i only say that it should be so dangerous because the only time someone would be using this tactic is when you have a guarantee ko.

An example that i can think of is( grab release the opponent off stage then hop of and spike opponent down, then follow opponent down with a fast fall and then slightly moving back towards the stage air grab the opponent and back throw them underneath the stage) now the most important part about this is that you'll get the second jump back if you successfully air grab...

Oh and does this already have a thread? Cuz I'm fine with discussing this here(as off topic as it is) as long as it doesn't already have a place for discussion.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Shield grab>Mach Tornado?

No thanks.

 

[Johnknight1]

@ OP
Smash 64 had the same 3 smash attacks as Melee and Brawl. The only moves Smash 64 lacked was two extra grab throws (up and down), the side B attack, Z-airs (which then only some characters have), and grab pummels.

As for "special grabs," I think one extra grab throw would be enough, and possibly add something (so long as it isn't OP). To anyone who wants 4 new grab throws, you'd probably have to sacrifice a character spot for the added work, frame data, balancing, and graphical data in order for that to happen.

Still, I think every character getting a Z-air should happen first.

@ Kuma
Are you suggesting this grab or grab throw could be cancelled and/or countered while having the possibility of doing extra damage=??? (because I kinda sorta like that idea)

 

[DakotaBonez]

Some moves like Ness's downward throw where he burns his foe with PK Fire could be converted to a grab special. I want to see Fox use more of his Martial Arts moves in his throws and change his throws that use the gun into a grab special. The bullets usually miss during his gun throws when the foe has some damage.

 

[gothrax]

@Johnnight: srrt bout the typo i fixt it.
And i dont see why you'd need to cut a roster slot just to add one new move for each char...

@dakota: ness's Dthrow is really weird that way isn't it? And yah i agree that it could be turned into a GSP with of course a little added flavor.

However for some reason i was thinking he would have something like... PK mind control or somthn

1@epf: ..... http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YpuRcmPnSTM

 

[Norm]

I do like this idea it'll add a little more depth to the fighting giving us more variety to work with.

 

[Big-Cat]

@ Kuma
Are you suggesting this grab or grab throw could be cancelled and/or countered while having the possibility of doing extra damage=??? (because I kinda sorta like that idea)

I'm a little confused with your wording here. Here's what I had in mind. Grab breaks work ONLY for throws. This puts in the necessary fear of a command/special grabs which cannot be escaped out of.

There's the question if special grabs should be allowed to be comboable (like in KOF) or not (like in SF). Either way, you can always use the blockstun to set up frame traps where you can go into special grabs for big damage.

Then there's the concept of hit grabs. Attacks that look and act similar grabs, but they can be blocked and can grab a midair opponent if you're on the ground (such as Ibuki's Raida).

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

@gothrax- sorry if you don't agree with my opinion, but you need to give me a reason how this couldn't be overpowered with smash's current engine?

Imagine if everyone in Street Fighter could Parry>Karakusa like Makoto in Street Fighter 3rd Strike? Depending on the nature of the special a character wouldn't even need to approach. Even if this was used on appropriate characters, such as heavy weights, they wouldn't be encouraged to approach, and characters with aerial mobility would just poke outside of the shield. I know im speaking about this game is if it was Brawl, but all fighting games tend to borrow elements from its last iteration. Even if they did balance this game, Smash has always favored characters with superior mobility.

Grab specials as a concept in smash is a potential step forward, but in regards to the metagame it is potentially a step backwards. Instead of countering me with a video why not give me solid evidence or ideas of how this can be fairly implemented. You should start by looking at how this could work in an existing smash engine smash 64, Melee etc.

 

[gothrax]

Lol fair enough
I suggest reading this talk by kumaoso and everything else that happens to be being discussed in this thread

Specifically the stuff about grab breaking and air grabs

Believe me if fast characters with easy grabs had special spamming techs? Then that would indeed make things worse.

But technically discussing grab techs isnt why i made this thread.
i made this thread for discussing what characters would be changed IF there was a grab special.

 

[Big-Cat]

Imagine if everyone in Street Fighter could Parry>Karakusa like Makoto in Street Fighter 3rd Strike? Depending on the nature of the special a character wouldn't even need to approach. Even if this was used on appropriate characters, such as heavy weights, they wouldn't be encouraged to approach, and characters with aerial mobility would just poke outside of the shield. I know im speaking about this game is if it was Brawl, but all fighting games tend to borrow elements from its last iteration. Even if they did balance this game, Smash has always favored characters with superior mobility.

Grab specials as a concept in smash is a potential step forward, but in regards to the metagame it is potentially a step backwards. Instead of countering me with a video why not give me solid evidence or ideas of how this can be fairly implemented. You should start by looking at how this could work in an existing smash engine smash 64, Melee etc.

This is why everyone needs to be reasonably well rounded while still having specialties.

Take Makoto. She can Parry > Karakusa, but she has various combos and reset setups that will definitely encourage her to go in. Not only that, but she has strong footsies tools like her st.MP and cr.MP that give her the confidence to go in despite having the slowest walk speed in the SF series. Makoto COULD just turtle and might win by just waiting to do a reversal Karakusa, but it wouldn't be effective in the long run.

Smash favoring heavily mobile characters may be due to poor design. Actually, poor may not be the best word to describe this. Maybe incomplete is a better word.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

This is why everyone needs to be reasonably well rounded while still having specialties.

Take Makoto. She can Parry > Karakusa, but she has various combos and reset setups that will definitely encourage her to go in. Not only that, but she has strong footsies tools like her st.MP and cr.MP that give her the confidence to go in despite having the slowest walk speed in the SF series. Makoto COULD just turtle and might win by just waiting to do a reversal Karakusa, but it wouldn't be effective in the long run.

Smash favoring heavily mobile characters may be due to poor design. Actually, poor may not be the best word to describe this. Maybe incomplete is a better word.

Agreed. That and Hayate Canceling can apply ridiculous mix up and pressure.

Makoto is a great example of a fighting game character that emphasizes a game engines strong points (At least for 3rd strike). She has offensive options, decent defensive options, and a weak wake up game. She can beat everyone in the game, but she can be beaten by everyone in the game.

 

[Big-Cat]

She managed to make it into SF4 once she was made good in the AE versions. However, I think emphasizing a game's strong points can be a weakness in future games. Take El Fuerte. He takes after the game's heavy knockdown emphasis, but he will have to be revamped greatly to make it into another game, especially if wakeup rolls are brought into another Street Fighter game or he will be greatly screwed over more than he is already. He has no reliable footsies tools and has poor wakeup and defensive options. As much as I enjoyed playing him, there's no denying that he's an over-crippling specialist.

Same goes for Smash really. We all saw what happened to Capt. Falcon and Jigglypuff as a result of the game changes from Melee to Brawl yet these two were never adjusted for this.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Some characters like Ibuki & Dudley adapted fairly well to SF4, which raises the question if some characters just naturally adapt to a games engine? Some characters in smash have remained mid to low tier throughout every smash game (Mario) and some stayed from high to top in Melee (Marth and Falco) and some just drop ( Fox, Falcon and Sheik). Marth with his disjointed hitboxes and excellent spacing makes him a character that will probably never be bad in any smash. Falco retained his projectile strength and gained a 1 frame jab along with other perks.

This makes me think that Sakurai's direction towards making smash 4 is the correct one; emphasis on fixing characters and minimize the quantity of new content. It's already given that there will be new content in smash, they have access to all the tools they need. Rebuilding the characters to work within the new engine is what needs to be done. Sakurai was forced to do this going from 64 to Melee.

 

[Big-Cat]

Yeah, to me, Marth is, in a funny sort of way, the Chun-Li of Smash with his playstyle. Like Marth, Chun-Li has typically been a rather solid character throughout her appearances, not counting the VS titles where she's a rushdown character as oppossed to her famous footsies playstyle.

So this begs the question though. What will be done to each of the characters that makes them much more solid while not relying on gimmicks and making them all distinct in playstyle (but not, say, Skullgirls diverse as that's an 8 girl roster). I still think the implementation of a smaller shield and 3D fighter combos would be some big steps in diversifying the characters.

 

[gothrax]

Updated a bit.
though I'm starting to think i should be a little more strict with the topic of this thread.

SO that means no more getting off topic the topic is grab specials NOT air grabs and not grab canceling...

Spoiler

nor is it street fighter

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

^Sorry bro, but the topic expanded. We are still talking about grab specials, we just found a tangent topic to discuss. When you are introducing a new mechanic in the game naturally skeptics will question it and make comparisons and scenarios about its use, priority, etc. This is the natural flow of the conversation, if we only talked about it there wouldn't be much to discuss since you are the one who provided us with information about it.

Also, you aren't in any position to control the conversation. Sorry.

 

[gothrax]

°_°¡..... oh *cough*

Srry uhh..... you were talking about grab special ideas?

Sounded to me like yous was talkin bout street fighter... ~_- then again I've never played street fighter?
so I'm not sure if it has GSP's in it or not?

Well what ev, i was just trying to get different views on the topic by refreshing it.

 

[xX1337Sn1PeZaSsAsS1nXx]

Grab specials could be very good or very bad depending on how it's done.

 

[umegames]

I very much like that idea!
i wonder though, for balance reasons, should everyone have one?
perhaps some should have air grabs, others GSB.

But love the idea