Grab Releases on Puff - Export.

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#1
Red: Main points thus far.

Obviously us puffs are aware of characters like Bowser, Yoshi, MK, etc having Grab Releases (GR) on us.

Does anyone know of any other known ones or the mechanics?
I understand that the Req's for wario's are either: Feet off the ground or input a jump when being held.

Is this the general rule for GR?

Also, i am aware that the only way to survive MK's GR -> SL is to Rest to parry it with invincibility.
Is it possible to rest other grab releases since our Invincibility is frame one?

I'll be doing some testing this week on it.
Also, i want to have all the GR on us, and the percents they kill at. I'll get the list complete and perfect through the (what i hope to be) General Discussion thread. (see bottom of this OP)

I asked T-Block for ownership of the Q&A thread, and i'm hoping to turn it into a general discussion thread, so we can discuss things such as this, which will eventually evolve into Exports, such as this one.

List So Far:


Air Release
--Yoshi's Uair kills at 75%
--Bowser's Uair kills around 55-65% (have to double check. I remember puffster saying that)
--ZSS gets an Uair

Ground Releases:
ZSS / Squirtle - Free Jab Combo
If we can rest our GR's, that would increase our metagame vs Yoshi and Bowser. I'm sure this has been tested before, but it doesn't hurt to double check. I would also like to revive the Q&A thread for a new thread on rest interupt moves, assuming we didn't find the old thread.
 

Veril

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#3
You can't rest Bowser's air grab release to up-air. That's a legit frame trap. You should try and jump+airdodge b/c the timing is very tight for Bowser and... well its really the only option you have. Don't get grabbed by Bowser @ 50+%, really don't get grabbed by Bowser period. Keep in mind he has the longest ranged non-tether pivot grab in the game (not most disjointed, however). Bowser is a special case because of his reduced lag following a grab release. I don't know of any other character who has frame traps off a grab release on Jiggs.

Rest has invincibility, not super armor. Nitpicking but its a pretty significant difference ;p

Shuttle Loop's strong hit is pretty much impossible to rest on reaction. I thought you could jump and dair vs that release... plus MK can't force an air release on Puff afaik and has no grounded grab release followups that you can't buffer powershield (unless I really missed something).

If you have questions about rest interrupting feel free to ask btw. :)
 
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#5
I believe that it works similiarly to our release on Wario.
If Wario's feet are NOT grounded, we have a release.
Thus, if we grab him over the edge, we can GR Fair, if i'm correct.

The same applies for jiggs on MK's Shuttle Loop.
Also i'll change the term from super armor to invincibility.
Would you mind writing the difference between the two?

I know that ZSS's Down Special has "Invisible" frames (the only in the game) where it is as if ZSS doesn't exist. Nothing has knockback, and basically there is no hitbox of our body for these frames.
Whats the diff between SA and IV?
 

Kaptain

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#6
Super Armor means you suffer no knockback, but still receive damage. Invincibility is a state where you take no damage or knockback, like when you grab a ledge or spawn a new stock.
 
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#7
There's also a difference between invincibility and intangibility (which is what I think you refer to as invisibility). When invincible, other attacks can still interact with you, but you take no damage or knockback. When intangible, nothing even interacts with you.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
 

Z'zgashi

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#10
You cant Rest Yoshi's GR > uair for two reasons. First, we have frame advantage, so you're still in lag, and 2, we will 90% of the time be hitting you with the disjoint part of uair. Usually, the side of the top hitbubble here:


If the Yoshi is being slow about it and is trying to hit you straight on, it MIGHT work if you time it perfectly, but know that our tail extends to that length for only a couple frames, so you have to hit us in a very small time frame and on a very thin hurtbox. It's better to just try and jump away as our uair wont reach that high without a double jump and we wont have time to double jump right away to follow up if we whiff uair. So basically, accept that Yoshi has it guaranteed, but if he's screws it up, there is a very slim chance you can punish it, so just try to get the safe escape.
 

Veril

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#11
True combo isn't the right term to use there because the release doesn't induce hitstun. Whether I used "frame trap" wrong or not... I'm fairly sure it was correct and if not, well, I'm a stubborn ***** and don't care. I use the term to describe a situation where some initiating step leads to one or more followups which are inescapable given the correct circumstance (say, getting a grab on someone next to the edge).

Regardless, Bowser has followups out of an air release on Jiggs which are unavoidable. Just mash out and scream "Jigglypuff NOOOOOOO"; your best option.

Invisibility ≠ intangibility, seeing as you can actually become invisible with that silly item, while you can become intangible without actually being invisible (something which implies you aren't able to be seen). The difference between invincibility and intangibility is pretty unimportant. Attacks don't really interact with your hurtbox in any meaningful way when you're invincible, not even inducing hitlag.

You cant Rest Yoshi's GR > uair for two reasons. First, we have frame advantage, so you're still in lag, and 2, we will 90% of the time be hitting you with the disjoint part of uair.
What's the frame advantage? I used to have most of the advantages on grab release vs. Jiggs/MK/Lucas but then my laptop died ;_;

Your second point is very very true. Jiggs can't rest Yoshi out of up-air, don't even bother to try it will never work unless the Yoshi is hella sloppy. Even then Yoshi is fat and probably won't die. W/e he's just jealous cause Jigglypuff has beautiful hair and awesome hats. I mean, really, I'd be salty if I was a bald, naked dinosaur that had to pop out eggs constantly.
 

Z'zgashi

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#12
Combo = guaranteed link between two moves, it counts.

But if you wanna be butthurt over terms, then fine, its just guaranteed.
 

Z'zgashi

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#15
So much plotpain its ridiculous.

You have 49 frames of air release lag. Yoshi has about 35. We have that much time to jump and uair with our frame advantage.
 

Z'zgashi

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#17
I think we might actually have 38 frames of lag... cant remember. But regardless, we have enough time for uair that its not too difficult to pull off.
 

Z'zgashi

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#21
Yeah. We dont get many chances to grab puff, but if you whiff something and we pivot it, we can punish hard.
 
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#22
I actually disagree. I think that yoshi's PGrab beats a stupid amount of moves that we have. How would you say it's hard? How would a jigglypuff fight your yoshi?

I'd like to know cause i hate fighting yoshi. I feel like it's easy mode for him. *rejoices yoshi isn't in LT*
 

Z'zgashi

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#23
I just checked up on the frame data, and I lied. I was WAY off. We have 29 frames of lag lol.

And Jiggs should be using rising aerials and coming from an angle on us. Its not really easy mode as jiggs can put a lot of pressure on us pretty well (and our shield sucks...), but he have a solid advantage for sure.
 

Z'zgashi

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#25
Imo its +2. I play as both chars and have another Yoshi player AND a Jiggs main to play in my scene (although im better than both, but they at least know the characters enough to get a good idea), so Ive played this MU from both sides.
 

-LzR-

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#27
Good stuff Mink. Finally some serious business activity. I didn't even know about these releases, but neither do my opponents and hell no am I gonna tell em about it :D
 
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#28
It's def something you should know haha. Alot of characters don't have a GR on us because we go too high up, like Falcon. I was doing testing with my friend M. Lorenzo (top falcon) and we found that since Puffs air release was so high, even he couldn't hit any attacks guaranteed, whereas falcon can basically do whatever he wants to wario lol.

I'll find out if theres any other GR tomorrow, i'm having a s/f with my boy Pesticide..

I'll get back to you on any big finds tomorrow :D


Also thanks for the compliment lzr
 

Z'zgashi

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#31
Bowser has Fair, Bair, Nair, Up B, Side B. Dunno why the Bowser would ever choose to nair or up b, but they are options.
 

Veril

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#32
If the advantage on air release was only +2 or 3 for Yoshi, that doesn't even cover his jump startup, let alone jump+upair. Are you sure it isn't higher?

Also worth mentioning is that mashing out of Yoshi's grab fast enough can force a ground release.
 
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#34
No Ivy doesn't.


ZSS has uair/upb.
Sigh, well that's sad. Hahaha

Bowser has Fair, Bair, Nair, Up B, Side B. Dunno why the Bowser would ever choose to nair or up b, but they are options.
Sigh thats also sad.

If the advantage on air release was only +2 or 3 for Yoshi, that doesn't even cover his jump startup, let alone jump+upair. Are you sure it isn't higher?

Also worth mentioning is that mashing out of Yoshi's grab fast enough can force a ground release.
Or freeze the game.
 

Veril

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#35
lol

But really, if you are cool with abusing your controller, its very possible to mash out before you get pulled into Yoshi's mouth. At least under 50%. I was never able to after that, and playing Lucas has taught me to mash out like a fiend, which is why I've got like 3 broken controllers ;p.

I'll have to check what the actual frame advantage is on release. I expected to see the followups listed on the Yoshi board vs. Jiggs, but no luck. It's lower priority than my pet project on performance enhancing drinks (oh win juice, you so delicious), so it might be a little while. Indigo Jeans might know though, that boy is brilliant with this stuff.
 
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