Grab Punishes Frame Data (WIP)

[schmooblidon]

Frames it takes to get to mid platform

BF
fullhop>waveland 28
fullhop>upairai 26

DL
fh>wl 32
fh>dj>wl 29
fh>ai 29
fh>dj>ai 27

YS
fh>wl 25
fh>ai 23

PS
fh>wl 26
fh>ai 24

vs Falcon

Upthrow Total 41
Upthrow Release 19
Downthrow Total 41
Downthrow Release 19

Chaingrab Percents

D-Throw (6 Damage included)

|---------|--------|-------------|----------------|-----------|----|
|Character| Overall| .Stand-Grab | ... JC-Grab ...| Jump-Out %| Lag|
| ........| Ranges.| Front Behind| Front . Behind | Best Wrong| ...|
|---------|--------|-------------|----------------|-----------|----|
|CF ......| 53-153 | .N/A . N/A .| 46-196 .53-196 | 154 .145 .| 23 |
--------------------------------------------------------------------

U-Throw (8 Damage included)

|---------|--------|-------------|----------------|-----------|----|
|Character| Overall| .Stand-Grab | ... JC-Grab ...| Jump-Out %| Lag|
| ........| Ranges.| Front Behind| Front . Behind | Best Wrong| ...|
|---------|--------|-------------|----------------|-----------|----|
|CF ......| 13-51 .| .N/A . N/A .| 10-66 . 13-66 .| .51 . 49 .| 23 |
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Tech Chase

Tech options (add to Doc Frame Advantage before knockdown for total Frame Advantage)

Tech in place | Vulnerable on 21 | Total 26
Tech Roll | Vulnerable on 21 | Total 40

Throw | Percent | DI | Doc Frame Advantage before knockdown | Frame window Falcon can jump out
Down | 0% | No DI | 5 | -
Down | 0% | DI away | 4 | -
Up | 0% | No DI | 10 | -
Up | 0% | DI away | 8 | -
Down | 5% | No DI | 6 | -
Down | 5% | DI away | 4 | -
Up | 5% | No DI | 11 | -
Up | 5% | DI away | 10 | -
Down | 10% | No DI | 6 | -
Down | 10% | DI away | 5 | -
Up | 10% | No DI | 13 | 1
Up | 10% | DI away | 11 | -
Down | 15% | No DI | 7 | -
Down | 15% | DI away | 5 | -
Up | 15% | No DI | 15 | 2
Up | 15% | DI away | 13 | -
Down | 20% | No DI | 8 | -
Down | 20% | DI away | 6 | -
Up | 20% | No DI | 17 | 2
Up | 20% | DI away | 15 | -
Down | 25% | No DI | 8 | -
Down | 25% | DI away | 7 | -
Up | 25% | No DI | 19 | 2
Up | 25% | DI away | 17 | 1
Down | 30% | No DI | 9 | -
Down | 30% | DI away | 7 | -
Down | 35% | No DI | 10 | -
Down | 35% | DI away | 8 | -
Down | 40% | No DI | 10 | -
Down | 40% | DI away | 9 | -
Down | 45% | No DI | 11 | -
Down | 45% | DI away | 9 | -
Down | 50% | No DI | 12 | -
Down | 50% | DI away | 10 | -
Down | 55% | No DI | 12 | -
Down | 55% | DI away | 11 | -
Down | 60% | No DI | 13 | -
Down | 60% | DI away | 11 | -
Down | 65% | No DI | 14 | -
Down | 65% | DI away | 12 | -
Down | 70% | No DI | 15 | 1
Down | 70% | DI away | 13 | -
Down | 75% | No DI | 15 | -
Down | 75% | DI away | 13 | -
Down | 80% | No DI | 16 | 1
Down | 80% | DI away | 14 | -
Down | 85% | No DI | 17 | 1
Down | 85% | DI away | 15 | -
Down | 90% | No DI | 18 | 2
Down | 90% | DI away | 15 | -
Down | 95% | No DI | 19 | 3
Down | 95% | DI away | 16 | -
Down | 100% | No DI | 21 | 4
Down | 100% | DI away | 17 | -
Down | 105% | No DI | 22 | 5
Down | 105% | DI away | 18 | 1

When will Falcon be able to tech a platform?

Stage | Throw | DI | Percent
BF | Up | No DI | 3%
BF | Up | DI away | 10%
BF | Down | No DI | 55%
BF | Down | DI away | 73%
DL | Up | No DI | 14%
DL | Up | DI away | 22%
DL | Down | No DI | 82%
DL | Down | DI away | 103%
YS | Up | No DI | 0%
YS | Up | DI away | 0%
YS | Down | No DI | 20%
YS | Down | DI away | 36%
PS | Up | No DI | 0%
PS | Up | DI away | 1%
PS | Down | No DI | 35%
PS | Down | DI away | 51%

Optimal Punishes

FD
0% - 13% | DownThrow Tech Chase or Jab Tech Trap
13% - 51% | UpThrow CG
51% - 53% | UpThrow CG if no perfect jump out OR DownThrow CG if does not DI behind OR DownThrow Tech Chase
53% - 75% | DownThrow Tech Chase OR DownThrow CG (hard)
75% - 150%+ | DownThrow CG

BF
0% - 13% | DownThrow Tech Chase or Jab Tech Trap
13% - 51% | UpThrow CG if cannot reach platform OR DownThrow Tech Chase
51% - 53% | UpThrow CG if cannot reach platform and no perfect jump out OR Downthrow Tech Chase
53% - 55% | DownThrow Tech Chase OR DownThrow CG (hard)
55% - 75% | DownThrow

 

[Superw0rri0]

Kreygasm

530209chars

 

[1MachGO]

Amazing work. Quick question though: how should Doc position himself after Dthrow? He has pretty average speed and poor grab range compared to Sheik, Falcon, etc. so I'm wondering if there is a trick to give him extra leniency to react to different techs

 

[schmooblidon]

Amazing work. Quick question though: how should Doc position himself after Dthrow? He has pretty average speed and poor grab range compared to Sheik, Falcon, etc. so I'm wondering if there is a trick to give him extra leniency to react to different techs

I'd immediately follow the DI with a dash or wavedash, and hold shield in prime shieldgrab position if he getup attacks or tech in place. Then wavedash OoS into dash > jc grab to react to tech rolls. Either that or don't hold up shield and be ready to powershield getup attack like the falcons, but we have a good wavedash so I don't think it's super necessary.

Also I realised as I was writing the optimal punish section that I need to do the frames that falcon could tech the platforms, and how fast doc can get there. Which is why it abruptly ends. Will have that info soon.

 

[Max?]

Wow. Literally top tier thread

 

[Zonak]

This is incredible. Great work.

 

[shantanut]

How do you calculate the tech chase data? I'd like to help contribute for other characters. Also, is up-tilt every a guarantee follow up into regrab?

 

[jihaeng29]

Thank you so much for this GODLY post! I was looking for this exact info for the optimal grab punishes on fast-fallers. I was curious though, does up-tilt/up-air or pivot-grab add anything for guaranteed regrabs like with marth? And will you be posting the percentages for fox/falco as well?

 

[JipC]

Even writing out the optimal punishes on BF and FD, dang. Stop spoonfeeding me I dont deserve it.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

this is sick

i hope you do one of these for matchups vs all the top tiers

 

[-ACE-]

How does Doc's backwards fulljump differ from neutral fulljump to plat wL?

 

[Superw0rri0]

How does Doc's backwards fulljump differ from neutral fulljump to plat wL?

When you jump backward you do back flips when you jump neutral or forward you stay up straight... what's the big deal? When you do the flips doc curls up into a ball (kind of). This does a couple things:
1. his hitbox is smaller (because he's curled up) bonus: his ledge grab is still the same
2. well...I tried explaining this thing but it gets into really complicated stuff that happens behind the scenes so I'll just refer you to a video created by the 7th god of smash (Schmooblidon)

 

[-ACE-]

The "big deal" is that some characters can wL sooner with the use of backwards jump as it has seemingly greater initial vertical velocity. If nothing else you can wL noticeably sooner. A backwards full jump isn't the same as a neutral or forward one. So I'm curious about Doc.

The more you know.

 

[Army805]

I'd immediately follow the DI with a dash or wavedash, and hold shield in prime shieldgrab position if he getup attacks or tech in place. Then wavedash OoS into dash > jc grab to react to tech rolls. Either that or don't hold up shield and be ready to powershield getup attack like the falcons, but we have a good wavedash so I don't think it's super necessary.

Also I realised as I was writing the optimal punish section that I need to do the frames that falcon could tech the platforms, and how fast doc can get there. Which is why it abruptly ends. Will have that info soon.

So if Doc is in the 20GX patented position to react to the tech option by frame 18, hes fast enough to where you can truly react to tech away with WD dash JC grab? Maybe i'm just too slow but I feel like I have to semi-read tech away opposed to it being a true reaction if that makes sense.