Gota smash DI em' all! Fox's Upair!

[Sprankles]

Hey puff boards. For afew weeks, I've been trying to completely understand both smash DI and how it applies to foxes upair and upthrow>upair combo. I looked over three or four good puff players and noticed that hungrybox SDI's the upair the most consistently so I looked up his method. On an old post compiling jigglypuff knowledge from Mango, Hbox, and the King, I found that Hbox not only smashes up the stick to SDI at the moment of the first upair hit, but that he also smashes the c-stick up exactly one frame after the stick.

Here's a video I found of him with a good view of his hands while he does it: I can't post a link due to not having 10 posts so... Apex 2013 Hungrybox vs Mango 2:23

I don't fully understand c-stick DI or Auto SDI, yet. So what does smashing the c-stick do as opposed to holding it? I know the c-stick can be used for Auto SDI, and I've heard that you can ASDI just by holding the stick, so wouldn't holding it up while worrying about SDIing normally work just as well? When I looked at the frame data for foxes Upair, I found that the first hit lasts exactly two frames (Frames 8-9) and each frame of hitlag can be SDIed. I'm also pretty sure that the C-stick works for aerials by being a macro of a stick movement+A, which is why I think it has DI properties at all. If the c-stick can be used to normally SDI, then it would explain why Hbox does it, but I'm not sure if that's the case.

I realized this is going pretty deep so anyone who can answer this wins the "Most knowledgeable Puff Player" award haha.

 

[Massive]

You are right about the c-stick being a macro in melee (it is). The neat thing about the c-stick is that it actually has input priority over the regular analog stick. This means for the frame you hit it, the c-stick is actually submitting a new, fresh, up input that allows you to sdi up a tiny bit further, which puts you out of Fox's upair ko hitbox.

C-stick SDI is usually considered worse than analog SDI because it only lasts for the start of the action state (1 frame), however in this case it is literally the only way for a human to perform this input (2 up inputs in 2 frames).

It is a very similar timing to JC grabs, just a bit harder since it's analog sticks instead of buttons.

 

[-ACE-]

C-stick is ASDI only and controls no portion of SDI, which is the regular joystick only.

 

[AGLET]

^ it doesn't sound like c-stick does anything in hungrybox's method. The only difference c-stick makes is if you're late on your SDI input but were holding c-stick up while you get hit, you'll ASDI the up air up which is sometimes enough to avoid the second hit of up air (but most of the it isn't). If you're early on your up input with the joystick then you're already ASDI'ing up when you get hit so c-stick doesn't make a difference. I don't even worry about c-stick up when I try to SDI uair; just focus on the timing of the joystick and you can get really consistent.

Also, I think the best direction to SDI is the diagonal angle between the way fox is facing and up. Puff has a fat hitbox so just to the side is usually not enough and up sometimes won't work if fox is still rising

 

[-ACE-]

The c-stick is a benefit because it gives you frame-perfect ASDI input in a desired direction that is drastically different than the direction in which you want to SDI. If you are lightning-fast with the joystick, technically the c-stick is useless. but if you want to ASDI right, and SDI up, for example, you could hold the C-stick right while wiggling the the joystick back and forth, crossing the "up" position (ideally, although it is very hard, as this would give you multiple SDI inputs... every time you cross a cardinal direction during hitlag you will SDI in the direction the joystick is pointing the frame after... so wiggling the stick back and forth across one of the 4 cardinal directions is the fastest way to get multiple SDI inputs), instead of using only the joystick to SDI and then frame-pefect as soon as hitlag ends, switch positions. That is literally it.

 

[Sprankles]

You are right about the c-stick being a macro in melee (it is). The neat thing about the c-stick is that it actually has input priority over the regular analog stick. This means for the frame you hit it, the c-stick is actually submitting a new, fresh, up input that allows you to sdi up a tiny bit further, which puts you out of Fox's upair ko hitbox.

C-stick SDI is usually considered worse than analog SDI because it only lasts for the start of the action state (1 frame), however in this case it is literally the only way for a human to perform this input (2 up inputs in 2 frames).

It is a very similar timing to JC grabs, just a bit harder since it's analog sticks instead of buttons.

Thanks Massive, and Ace! Some of this information between you two seemed a bit conflicting though... Massive, to be sure, were you saying that c-stick SDI can be done DURING the actual hit-lag? And if you're SDI'ing (Although it's worse due to being the c-stick) how would that affect auto-SDI which I thought only happened at the end of hitlag? Could you do both with the c-stick?

And Aglet after quite abit of testing in 20XX your direction seems to work the most :D. Thanks. Although it could just be the foxes timing in the mod, so I'll just have to pay attention to how real fox players move while they upair and tell you what I find.

 

[tauKhan]

Massive is wrong and Ace is right. C-stick isn't a macro in melee and only matters on asdi, though I believe it is macro in brawl. C-sticking is pointless unless you want to asdi in different direction than sdi/di.

My preferred method for sdi out of uair is to move the stick around 30° over the cardinal you want to move in, and then very quickly rotating to 30° below the angle. So if I want to sdi up, I go 110° -> 60°. This gives a very slight chance of double sdi, since the hitlag of fresh first hit uair is 4 frames only, but the second direction is also a back up: If I make the first input too early, the second might still register as sdi.

 

[OnStrings]

Massive is wrong and Ace is right. C-stick isn't a macro in melee and only matters on asdi, though I believe it is macro in brawl. C-sticking is pointless unless you want to asdi in different direction than sdi/di.

My preferred method for sdi out of uair is to move the stick around 30° over the cardinal you want to move in, and then very quickly rotating to 30° below the angle. So if I want to sdi up, I go 110° -> 60°. This gives a very slight chance of double sdi, since the hitlag of fresh first hit uair is 4 frames only, but the second direction is also a back up: If I make the first input too early, the second might still register as sdi.

So your SDI method is control stick rotating. Does holding C stick in another direction help on top of your method, because it helps ASDI? Or does the C stick play no role in getting out of UAirs? Sorry, I'm having trouble understanding your first paragraph.

 

[tauKhan]

C-stick can only be used for asdi, and it overrides control stick there, so you can asdi to different direction than you are di'ing. I guess you could quarter circle sdi from up to side and use c-stick to get asdi up, while if you use control stick only the asdi will be to the side, but I don't think it matters that much whether you are asdi'ng up or to the side. I could be wrong though.

If you just do single direction sdi, using c-stick is pointless, because you get the asdi simply by holding the direction you sdi'd to.

C-stick isn't a direction + attack in melee.

Also I'm not sure how familiar you are with the different di types, but in the case you want to learn about A/S/DI, watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RP3sbS7Dm0

 

[Massive]

I do consider the cstick a macro from a programmer's perspective (it sends a different input than direction+button but performs the same action through a function call), but I will concede the other point pending further research on my part.

 

[Krynxe]

Z is a macro of L/R+A. If you're already holding the A button, pressing the Z button will act as a minimal analog L/R input (aka lightshield on the floor). If you're already holding L/R, pressing Z will act as the A button and complete a shield grab if on the floor. This is why pressing Z in the air only does an aerial attack (because you cannot airdodge with an analog L/R press) but also works for L-cancelling (because you can L-cancel with an analog L/R press).

As far as I'm concerned, the c-stick doesn't serve these sorts of multi-purpose acts that a true macro like Z would, but actually has evidence of not being a macro, such as smash attacks with 0 charge frames, doing aerial attacks in the opposite direction of motion without slowing down, and alternative priority with ASDI.