Good and bad matchups for Lucas?

[VHS]

What stages/matchups are good and bad for Lucas? I play Lucas, shiek, and marth, so I wanted to know what character to play against certain matchups.

 

[Kipcom]

Lucas' bad stages are all matchup dependent, honestly. Lucas can perform relatively well regardless of the stage and doesn't really suffer from fighting on small or big stages. Though stages I would typically avoid in the past would be Dreamland, FoD, Distant Planet, Lylat, Yoshi's Island (Brawl). I've decided to not avoid stages that I dislike and whatnot during practice and in friendlies because it's only going to give me more comfort picks and less opportunity to get stage counterpicked.

As for Lucas' bad matchups, I'm inclined to say the following:

• Marth
• Falcon
• Fox
• Falco
• Roy
• Sonic

Character's who might potentially be an issue for Lucas:

• Samus
• Ike
• Wolf
• Zelda

Of course, when Lucas was a god, hardly any of these matchups were problems for our boy. But now that Lucas has been toned down, his weaknesses are a lot more apparent. While I personally think that the characters I listed are good against Lucas, I don't think many of them just straight up dominate the matchup. The thing with Lucas is that his punish game is still really good, so even if he has to work harder for his punishes against some of these characters, the potential is still there. I could be leaving out characters, or I could have too many characters listed. The meta for 3.5 is still fresh, so who's to say? I feel that even with the nerfs Lucas got, he's still perfectly capable of solidly handling almost any other character in the game.

Again, most of this is just from my experience or seeing the matchup being played by other players. If anyone has any different opinions, feel free to share.

 

[D e l t a]

Lucas' bad stages are all matchup dependent, honestly. Lucas can perform relatively well regardless of the stage and doesn't really suffer from fighting on small or big stages. Though stages I would typically avoid in the past would be Dreamland, FoD, Distant Planet, Lylat, Yoshi's Island (Brawl). I've decided to not avoid stages that I dislike and whatnot during practice and in friendlies because it's only going to give me more comfort picks and less opportunity to get stage counterpicked.

As for Lucas' bad matchups, I'm inclined to say the following:

• Marth
• Falcon
• Fox
• Falco
• Roy
• Sonic

Character's who might potentially be an issue for Lucas:

• Samus
• Ike
• Wolf
• Zelda

Of course, when Lucas was a god, hardly any of these matchups were problems for our boy. But now that Lucas has been toned down, his weaknesses are a lot more apparent. While I personally think that the characters I listed are good against Lucas, I don't think many of them just straight up dominate the matchup. The thing with Lucas is that his punish game is still really good, so even if he has to work harder for his punishes against some of these characters, the potential is still there. I could be leaving out characters, or I could have too many characters listed. The meta for 3.5 is still fresh, so who's to say? I feel that even with the nerfs Lucas got, he's still perfectly capable of solidly handling almost any other character in the game.

Again, most of this is just from my experience or seeing the matchup being played by other players. If anyone has any different opinions, feel free to share.

Adding on to everything Kipcom stated. I agree with everything he said except for Lucas being a god. Lucas still lost to a number of matchups, this was only overlooked due to his extensive recovery and top level on-stage play (only his recovery truly needed nerfs). I personally would've been fine with almost no ability to recover and a godlike onstage game, but whatever......

Always practice on stages that are bad for you in friendlies or matches that don't matter. I've turned many stages I hate into an average stage for me. FoD, Lylat, YI (Brawl), etc. are now decent stages that my opponent won't get a free win purely based off the fact that I hate the stage and do bad there. FoD can be good for Lucas with small side blast zones and platforms that alternate height, allowing for DJC aerials and tilts to be performed safely underneath. Not so good for the PKF heavy Lucas (as I once was). Character such as Fox might have a harder time killing off the top here rather than securing kills off the side. YI Brawl can be good with the ghost for added recovery. Lylat for the lipped side doesn't matter to a tether character, whereas spacies would have a harder time recovering easily. Not to mention a small top blast zone and small side blast zones. Why doesn't this get counterpicked as Lucas more often....?

Good stages I have found through playing many hours of Lucas and watching even more countless hours of Lucas play:
Generic neutrals: PS2, Smashville, Battlefield
Semi-standardized counterpick stages: GHZ, YI Brawl, Lylat
Less seen / semi-jank / decent counterpick stages: WarioWare, Norfair
Other: Yoshi's Story, Final Destination

From a thread I stumbled across a while back, the OP stated these few questions in determining your counterpick:

Before your matches just take a second to think about your opponents character

Do they kill off the top? The sides? Mainly a gimper?
Do the cover a lot of space with their moves? Do you need a stage with more breathing room?
Do they combo better with or without platforms?
How do they handle pressure? Can you overwhelm them with pressure?

Character-wise, I have found the following characters to be troublesome (plus everything Kip stated):

• Bowser
• Diddy
• Sonic (only if their movement is solid and you don't know the MU)
• IC's
  • If they space back and wall Lucas out this can be difficult. Otherwise it's super free bc Lucas can pressure for days and decimate Nana faster than you can say "wtf?!"
• Ganon & Mario
  • Chain grabs and free combos. Deals with PKF very well. Kills are easy to secure.
• Link / Toon Link
  • Link is way easier to deal with and is much slower
• Falcon
  • Only because Uthrow -> Knee is guaranteed and kills around 80-100% on most stages with good DI
• Pikachu?

Note that many cast members have a CG on Lucas, which really sucks and in most cases goes past 40%.

Even MUs give or take slight favor to one or the other

• Donkey Kong / Yoshi
  • Grab game is good. A few hits from them and Lucas dies. Training partner is a Yoshi main. I can confirm the Yoshi v Lucas MU is close to 55/45 Lucas favor. Be wary of low %, the CC armor is really good
• Metaknight
  • Watch any set of Neon vs K9. They both agreed it was close to even and met in GF's many times. It was 3.02, but the MU is still close to the same.
• Luigi
  • Potentially even? Not many Luigi's in the first place, let alone in PM. Can be difficult securing juggles and combos on Luigi, but floaties tend to die early, especially since OU Upsmash kills around 60-80%
• Wario maybe?
• Pit
• Snake
• G&W
• ROB
• Lucario

Relatively easy MUs

• Charizard
• Jigglypuff
  • Side note: Lucas is one of the very few characters if not the only character that can combo Jiggs past mid %. Lucas can potentially 0-death Jiggs. After playing in the lab a bit, I found how to combo Jiggs and it's surprisingly really easy. She gets out-spaced by Ftilt / Fsmash, Fair, and PKF is somewhat hard for Jiggs to deal with
• DeDeDe
• Kirby
• Olimar
• Ivysaur

IMO the Lucas ditto isn't hard to deal with. Avoid PKF, CC bad approaches, shield unsafe pressure and punish hard OoS, combo like a ************

 

[TheNerdHero]

this was beyond helpful; thanks.

 

[D e l t a]

Dropping some knowledge in here as a quick update. I'll expand on this a little more when I get time.

Marth
Background: I recently played a good Marth / one that knew what he was doing, and managed to pull out a win & a 2-0 with a 2-3 stock both games. I believe the starter was either Smashville or PS2 and he definitely counterpicked Yoshi's Story. The only flaws he had were a weak punish game and semi-poor spacing. Mainly the two could be attributed to lack of MU experience as Lucas is a rare character to see in 3.5 now. He also didn't use much Dtilt / extend his combos too long which are somewhat crucial to Marth. I've also dug into Melee archives and studied Fox/Falco v Marth in longevity. I've found it's nowhere near 60/40 or worse as previously stated, and is closer to 55/45 if not dead even ATM.

Neutral: A large portion of our games were spent in neutral or me punishing him. I countered every single jump perfectly and stuffed his ground game with PKF. Applying safe pressure and backing off of Marth at the right times is key to the MU. Cross-ups are key as Marth's turnaround game isn't the best. His Bair & Dair OoS as well as Dolphin Slash (UpB) are not the best at hitting a tiny character like Lucas. Learning how to weave in and out of his Fair range and the timings of his hits are also a crucial element to this MU. Soon as his sword swings, rush Marth down before he can throw out another attack. His CC isn't the best, so repeated Nair & Dair pressure if done intelligently can pin Marth down and rack on huge damage.

Punishes: The combo tree on Marth is a tricky one. Until 40% or higher, Uair and sourspot Fair have extremely low hitstun on Marth, meaning he can Fair / counter before your next hit. Utilt is best to get the little bit of extra hitstun, especially with no DI on dthrow. Fair / Uair -> re-grab are also solid options I choose under 20%. Juggling Marth in the air is about reading when he'll use Fair / Dair / counter to land, and being aware to punish. Marth goes from a terrible MU for Lucas to 70/30 Lucas' favor when in the air. All his options are predictable and can be called out.

The same goes for recovery. A well timed Bair on a bad sweetspot can send Marth flying away or spike him straight back down. Dsmash has a great disjoint and will trade with his recovery as it hits slightly below stage. A light Fair can be just enough to knock him away from recovering.
Conversely, Lucas has to watch out for Dtilts & Fsmash at the ledge when tethering. Most CPU Marths can catch me with this as well as a few players (WeonX was exceptional at punishing Hammertime's tethers in 3.0). Lucas' UpB can also get caught by Marth's sword, but trades at weird times with Fair. Make sure to mix up the two and realize which option they will cover or which they are better at covering.

Ivysaur
Background: this MU is still really easy IMO. 2 weeks ago I practiced for about an hour with our #2 PR, JZ. Most of our matches came to last stock consistently. At Shuffle, I played Papa in pools (2nd seed OH player) and game 2 was taking every stock first until the last stock, where he clutched out the win.

Neutral: Razor leaf, Bair, Fair, jab, and tilts are the main things that Ivy can use to wall out Lucas. Her tilts are bad on shield unless she gets the max range. Razor leaf can be countered by Fair & Dair, which makes approaching and being aggro with these moves heavily in Lucas' favor. I would also run up & shield the startup of razor leaf then use an aerial OoS or shield grab for free. Bair isn't too troublesome for Lucas as it's got decent end lag and is hard to space out. Fair can do some work in neutral, but doesn't lead to much against Lucas given that your combo DI is on point.

Combos are easy as she's the best combo weight for Lucas, has few options to escape, and is somewhat floaty but also kinda heavy.

Quick note: when getting rained on by seed bombs (DownB)

1. The end lag on this move is hella bad, so you can get a free punish most times. I especially like to use grab / safe mag pressure / Nair when I see the opportunity.
2. If you're trying to land, Dair will cut straight thru her bombs and either leads to a free punish or allows you to land safely due to the end lag.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Sadly I can't attend my weekly that often just from lack or transportation, but I played a huge amount of games with Ivy and Roy outside of this. You say that Ivy is Lucas's perfect combo weight, but I kind of disagree. IMO semi fast fallers like Roy or another Lucas are the idea combo weight for Lucas. I can get like max 40% off a combo on Ivy, but can get like 80% combos on semi fast fallers. Super fastfallers like spacies are hard because they really go nowhere when you hit them at low percent and all of them out class Lucas in terms of neutral game so those are rough, but the Roy matchup is honestly my favorite matchup to play in PM. While it may not be in Lucas's favor, it feels very even and just consists of insane combos after the next. I have honestly no idea how to fight Ivy with Lucas, and you are a much better player than me so your idea of these matchups are more reputable than mine, but that's my opinion.

PS: Seriously, how do you fight Ivy? I can win with just Fox shenanigans not even laser camping, but can't win Lucas to save my life. I have put a little more time in my fox than lucas, but results are disgusting.

 

[D e l t a]

Okay so a few updates: I feel that C. Falcon vs Lucas with all the updates n such is definitely even, maybe Lucas favor. PKF clanks his side and down special and can stop his ground centric dash dance game. The punishes are akin to Falcon v Falco only Lucas has a better recovery and more access to kill setups. His Nair might not be as disjointed, but definitely faster and stuffs a ton of Falcon's moves. The only super positive aspect for Falcon is being able to juggle Lucas and tech chase easily, that is if Falcon can actually get a grab.

Marth is still one that needs to be played more. If Lucas is patient, but aggressive like Fox and doesn't use much PKF other than as a neutral zoning tool, Lucas wins. Marth can punish PKF and does every other typical Marth thing (ledge guard, space well in neutral, etc). The only thing is that Marth is a floaty and dies early to Upsmash plus being easy to get in on. Definitely not a bad MU by any means anymore IMO

 

[D e l t a]

I wouldn't necessarily say I'm that much better of a player. More along the lines of, I've studied this game in and out and found Lucas to be my niche character that fits my playing style.

To answer your questions ForgottenLabRat :

Short version
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Roy gets combo'd easier on average and certain followups work on Roy that don't work on Ivy. PKF is sometimes ineffective vs Roy because Dtilt and other attacks negate PKF and go thru the projectile. Ivy has to use her own projectile to counter PKF or hope her attacks don't whiff when attempting to beat PKF, thus creating a Rock Paper Scissors scenario where Lucas won't always lose from throwing his hand first.

Ivy dies easier than Roy and is much less safe in neutral and considerably less safe on shield. Combos might seem shorter, but are more deadly to Ivy. Punish game heavily favors Lucas in Ivy vs Lucas and is close to even for Roy vs Lucas.

I include some tips about fighting Ivy near the end of my long post. I hope those give a better insight to the matchup

==

Longer, more elaborately detailed answer. Cuz I don't know how to make super short posts.
____________________________________

Roy is much easier to combo in the sense that he falls prey to a number of basic and advanced combos, but at higher levels, his CC can escape many of Lucas' setups. For instance, PKF -> Fair normally leads into a great repeated Fair/Uair string or an Utilt at lower %’s if they DI in. Vs Roy, he’s almost always CC’ing, especially against Lucas. If he doesn’t outright Dtilt thru the PKF, he can CC the projectile until over 100% and barely be sent anywhere from a sourspot Fair until about 70%. Additionally, landing raw hits or smash attacks on any competent Roy will prove to be difficult given their great mobility and dash dance game, which means the whole “Roy can die at low% from bad DI” doesn’t exactly transfer to the Lucas matchup. Furthermore, I’ve found it more difficult to convert off of stray hits in neutral vs Roy, such as Fair/Nair or dash attack.

Yes you’ll be able to 0-death Roy easier than Ivy on any given day, but Roy can do close to the same to Lucas. Roy’s punish game with forced tech chases, combos off of Dtilt and Uthrow, and ability to convert into kills (especially Dair -> Bair/Fsmash), are all equal to, if not better than Lucas’s punish game.

Ledge guarding Roy is next to impossible for Lucas, unlike characters such as Sheik who can use needles or Marth/Yoshi who have amazing Dtilts to counter Roy. Conversely, Roy can punish tethers easily using any ledgehop aerial. If Lucas goes for a fadeback, turn-around fireblade, Nair, Bair, and Dair can hit Lucas, potentially more options if they perfect ledgedash -> jab or tilt. If Lucas lands on-stage, any aerial, ledgedash grab, Dtilt, or possibly fsmash (given their reaction time), will work. Lucas’ UpB (PKT2) can be countered or swatted away by any attack, in addition to Roy being able to punish the end lag with a grab.

==

Now as for vs Ivy, take into consideration what you’re doing with your combos. Are you simply building up damage then hopefully trying to find a raw kill move or kill setup in neutral? Or are you taking every punish opportunity you get against Ivy to regain / control center stage if not sending them offstage to kill or ledge guard?

Think back to that statement you said about only being able to combo Ivy to 40% vs Roy to 80%. Factor in their weight & fall speed and compare the two: Upsmash kills Ivy around 70% vs Roy at approximately 105%. You hit Ivy with about 3-5 moves and she is near death %. You hit Roy with about 6-8 moves before he’s at death %. This means you absolutely cannot drop combos vs Roy, whereas vs Ivy it’s just 1-2 moves before you can kill her. Winning neutral vs Ivy is considerably easier than winning neutral vs Roy. Her razor leaf can be attacked thru and most of her moves are susceptible to being CC’d other than say Nair -> double jab. Roy on the other hand, eats up Lucas’ attacks and can knock down Lucas with Dtilt and throws.

Ledge guarding Ivy is simply “did she fadeback to go for a 2nd tether? Yes: let her snap ledge again then punish the landing on stage. No? ledge hop -> Fair/Uair then juggle her or lead into Upsmash / DACUS if you have an OU charge (reliable kill setup around 50-70% DI dependant). I’ll try to record this to show what I mean later. It’s also easy to ledgehop Uair -> Bair or simply ledgehop Bair

As for some tips in neutral, Ivy’s Bair has some decent cooldown and her other moves, aside from Nair & jab, have fairly high startup (at least 8 frames or more). I’ve played a number of Ivysaurs and I can run up -> shield -> attack OoS after Bair. Or if you don’t feel confident with your OoS options, space outside of Bair range, wait for her to whiff, then shoot a PKF and punish how they react. If they shield, know that Ivy’s OoS options aside from Nair are fairly slow, so you can immediately start up shield pressure. If they get hit, follow up accordingly.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Thanks, I will try to implement this into my gameplay.

 

[D e l t a]

I haven't found a good video of Lucas vs Ivy so don't bother trying to search cuz I've already looked thru most of the Lucas vods lol

But Neon vs Sethlon should give you an idea of how to space out against Roy stuff. Not too many vods of the Roy MU either

 

[ita16]

How to you fight against ganon. There is one i play and i cant beat him. He just seems to out space me and has good edge guarding i can combo him like crazy but he just needs 3 hits and lucas dies. What stages should i take him to also.

 

[D e l t a]

I think I wrote something about that in the stickied thread "Neon's Matchup Discussion"

Anything medium sized and where he can't camp platforms. So PS2, Smashville, FD, etc. any typically good Lucas stages