Good AI, possible?

[floofy]

So i often read on these boards that AI cannot compete with humans, etc etc, and to not hope a better AI for brawl

but i think that if the developpers wanted, they certainly could make a very challenging AI. if we paid a team of programmers to make a melee 2.0 with much tougher AI, it would be easy for them to make the comp constantly wave dash perfectly, always L cancel perfectly, and maybe put some more efforts on the ******** sides of it(like suiciding and ******** aproaching tactics)

if you team up very good programmers with a few smash pros and give them some time to work, its crystal clear to me that they could come up with a very very very badass AI.

i do admit that its difficult to make the AI unexploitable, and for that reason people like ken etc would probably still win, but making an AI that the average gamer cannot beat is certainly not impossible.

The thing is the developpers are not really focussing on making a HARD AI, they are focussing on making it FUN AI. if the AI played like i described above, only pros would stand a chance and the lil 12 year old kids would just be frustrated that they can't beat the toughest AI

i mean come on, just look at melee AI. its ridiculous. you can just take marth do a F smash over n over and they won't cacth on. don't tell me this is the best they could do

am i right?

 

[Shishou]

AI always will become predictable eventually. Not to mention mind games and play-styles of humans can never be replicated that well.

Also let us remember this is Nintendo. They won't make AI that is insanely hard to beat.

 

[SuperLink9]

A computer is only as smart as the human who made them ;-)

That means the programmers for Melee aren't very good at the game

I think the computer will be better in Brawl, but in the end a computer cannot compare to the best players.

 

[autobzooty]

i hope that it's much better in this game. online doesn't seem like it'll be much fun since you can't choose any options...

good AI is very important to me.

 

[floofy]

Super, this is true

but the computer has PERFECT SPEED
i think even pros sometimes doesn't do their wavedash or L cancel perfectly.

computers would never mess up. their only weakness is that it might be possible to find exploit but if the team did a lot of testing with some real players they could find most of them

about them being predictable,
i think its possible to make it a bit unpredictable.
like u give them a routine where they got 25% to approach the ennemy in 4 different way

say with marth, some dash attack, some dash grab, etc
also it would be easy to make them dashdance

and anyways even if people managed to predict them, come on, it wouldn't be easy to beat a computer that always does every advanced move at perfection.

Trust me, if they are close to solving chess, super smash certainly isnt that hard to make a decent AI

but i fully agree with you that they will probably come up with a similar AI to melee =/

 

[autobzooty]

i wonder if better AI could come in a downloadable update? that way they'd have more time to make it better and better...

i always thought it would be fun to play against PERFECT AI that would never lose. they would shield against all your attacks, dodge at the right moments, calculate their attacks perfectly, etc. it'd be fun to see how long you could last or if you could even land a single hit.

 

[SuperLink9]

The thing is, L Cancelling and Wavedashing aren't "Official" techniques, people found them by accident, Sakurai didn't put them in intentionally. Besides, it's not unlikely that neither of them will return in Brawl anyway.

And if computers have perfect speed, why do lvl 9 Mewtwos always drop out accidentally?

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

I'd love a CPU to space the heck out of me.

It's going to be so pissing annoying, I'll love it.

Woot, 500 posts.

 

[floofy]

they "can" have perfect speed but it depends the way theyre programmed. having perfect speed at doing something ******** isnt good
look at level 1s, is that perfect speed?

Sakurai could easily program something among the lines of:
if opponement attack= about to hit then
power shield right when its hitting
end

this isn't hard at all to do but they didn't do it because they thought people wouldn't like to play computers that always shield at the right time

but i think the majority of people would agree with me it would be extremely fun to play a mega tough AI

and i do like auto's idea of updating the idea, would be pretty clever.

 

[floofy]

also i forgot to mention it but, its really easy to teach comps combos and make them never mess them up

but obviously developpers probably didn't know them, and getting comboed to death isnt exactly fun, so they didn't include them much

 

[Metal_Doc]

I honestly think that the AI is going to be like the one from melee since Brawl is using the same engine.
I'm expecting some tweaks to the AI like actually making it run,maybe more short hopped aerials and hopefully less perfect powershielding.

But does AI really matter? We got Online brawl.

 

[A New England Winter]

The thing is the developers are not really focusing on making a HARD AI, they are focusing on making it FUN AI. if the AI played like I described above, only pros would stand a chance and the little 12 year old kids would just be frustrated that they can't beat the toughest AI

/Thread


10c

 

[Corax The Cold]

i hope that it's much better in this game. online doesn't seem like it'll be much fun since you can't choose any options...

good AI is very important to me.

we dont know for sure yet...

also i'd like better AI not nececaraly harder AI, just bots that will react to what im doing, not reflect things i throw 110% of the time

 

[Cocoashadow]

I did see a video where a CPU actually charged a smash attack (Fox with smash down A), Which is a nice improvement. But other than that, I haven't seen much CPU change.
That would be nice to have an ultra -elite CPU for practicing on....

 

[Pluvia's other account]

Guess what!

That AI's RUN!! YAY!

I'll show you that video of a developer vs a level 3 Meta-Knight if I can find it, the AI has improved greatly in Brawl! ^_^

 

[joeysmash]

I think with the addition of online play, computer players won't have to be extrodinarily better... better yes but a lot better? not really needed.

 

[Titan05]

It would be nice if there was an Uber AI but like so many have already said: the 12 year olds won't like it much. I think the update to a tougher AI would be a brilliant idea.

 

[Opfer]

Being a programmer myself I can tell you that it is very possible to develop a decent AI that is fun to play against, but still challenging (i.e. not perfect on-frame-shielding, but rather smart overall strategy and tactics, while maintaining a more human-like technical skill level). It wouldn't even require inhumane amounts of work to achieve.

I still think it's unlikely to happen, seeing that so far, the Smash Bros. series has been all about multiplayer, meaning that the real effort put into the game was aimed at delivering the best possible experience when playing human vs. human multiplayer.

However, Sakurai has stated that the single player experience will be improved significantly over the first two installments in the series. So maybe we can still hope...

 

[Takeshi245]

I don't think so since it seems like they're focusing more on online, single-player, and multiplayer than to make good AI. Besides, a CPU player is a far easier opponent than a good human player.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Well look at it this way: when the game first comes out, the lv 9 comp will most likely be better than most of use. But then we get better and surpase the. So really the only way to make "hard" AI is time update them periodically, which is all but impossible

 

[Chrono917]

i wonder if better AI could come in a downloadable update? that way they'd have more time to make it better and better...

i always thought it would be fun to play against PERFECT AI that would never lose. they would shield against all your attacks, dodge at the right moments, calculate their attacks perfectly, etc. it'd be fun to see how long you could last or if you could even land a single hit.

That would be awesome

 

[Zarckoh]

Guess what!

That AI's RUN!! YAY!

I'll show you that video of a developer vs a level 3 Meta-Knight if I can find it, the AI has improved greatly in Brawl! ^_^

Do you mean this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjCvWyomKFQ

I don't know whether that CPU is at level 3 or another but at least this video shows a really improved AI.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Here is my idea for better AI:
http://blog.smashnexus.net/?p=33

 

[reu_1303]

I would really like a better AI for when I don't have someone to play with and don't want to play online

 

[gigasteve]

Although cpu's were a little tough, I do agree: better AI.

 

[Airgemini]

They were tough to me in the beginning but now theyre just to easy.

 

[ro0kie42]

who's the ai in that video? i'm assuming fox, which is tight, because he shined metaknight. also, did i see him jump after using his up+b move?

 

[Airgemini]

Yeah...I think you can jump after some characters recovery moves...The same with airdoging.

 

[Ice Ninja]

Fox got shrunken by the mario kart lightning bolt. In melee, when you did a recovery and you reverted back to normal size, you got another recovery.

Edit: Opps. I misunderstood your statement.

 

[Airgemini]

He double jumped when he got hit...In melee you didnt get your double jump back only your recovery move...And I originally wasnt talking about that.